Racism and/or Racist Sterotyping

Status
Not open for further replies.

Stargazer

Spiralling into the abyss
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
388
Reaction score
74
Location
Dunstable, UK
Evening all...

Slightly delicate subject for me to finish the day with, I look forward to seeing what the replies are like in my lunch break tomorrow.

The next project I'm going to write is going to have a plot that involves people comitting credit-card retail fraud. Since this is an area in which I have extensive experience, I feel obliged to 'tell it like it is'.

However, in doing so, I don't want to come across as racist or culturally intolerant. I am going to have the story focus on, other than my main character, three fraudsters, each involved in varying degrees in the scheme and other area's of criminal misdealings.

Now, I could - I suppose - have them all with different ethnic backgrounds, however, I know for a fact that these fraudsters tend to clump together, often I find myself speaking with the same group of people, though they are using different names each time.

Around 90% of the fraud we receive is not committed by (and I say this not to be racist or controversial, but because I know it to be true) White British people.

Most are people who have come into the country illegally and need to steal to get by. The remaining 10% of the fraud is the occasional dodgy delivery driver and the opportunist fraudsters who usually only do it as a one off because some mug left his wallet on the bar when he left.

Problem is, in this day and age, you can't say anything anymore without fear of offending somebody, so I wanted to ask: Is it right for me to have a group of criminal characters from African or Islamic origins?

I want to write something gritty and real. What I don't want is to piss people off by saying, 'look what these horrible layabout foreigners are doing to the honest hardworking white-man'.

I hope I'm making sense, It's late and I didn't sleep well last night... But I'd appreciate any and all insight into this issue and look forward to reading them tomorrow.

Thanks in advance,

Rob.
 

alleycat

Still around
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
72,890
Reaction score
12,238
Location
Tennessee
Well, I think for the most part writers should be honest.

One thought, make one or more of the "good guy" also an African or Muslin. It would be completely realistic because they could go into the neighborhoods were the "bad guy" live and perhaps learn more than if they were a native. You just don't want to paint a whole group of people with the same brush, which isn't fair.
 

escritora

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
2,995
Reaction score
616
Around 90% of the fraud we receive is not committed by (and I say this not to be racist or controversial, but because I know it to be true) White British people.

Most are people who have come into the country illegally and need to steal to get by. The remaining 10% of the fraud is the occasional dodgy delivery driver and the opportunist fraudsters who usually only do it as a one off because some mug left his wallet on the bar when he left.

So out of the 10% some may be white Brits. And they only participate in fraud because they just happen to come across a wallet?

If that is statistically accurate, then I don't see a problem with the story. However, if that is your perception, and not reality, then you are going to have to put aside some prejudices to write a story that doesn't come off as racist.
 

backslashbaby

~~~~*~~~~
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
12,635
Reaction score
1,603
Location
NC
ETA: crosspost; sorry!

I think if you could represent the real culture they come from [so, not just a country, but a sub-culture... know what they came from] and you don't ever paint the happenings with a broader brush than just their story, people would get it.

If there were any way you could have someone upstanding from that country explain the culture [one of the investigators?], that'd be awesome, imho, but do what the story calls for, of course.
 

BlackBriar

Bricoleur
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
1,295
Reaction score
203
Location
South
It will probably come across as racist if you don't make them into fully realized characters. I assume that with the 'grittiness' comes a low income background for the fraudsters. Show their backgrounds then. Humanize them. Most criminals have a reason for doing what they do. Go watch HBO's The Wire to see that it can be done.

And as escritora said, you may have some prejudices. The fact that you kept saying you didn't makes me think that you are a bit blind to them. As in, why say you don't over and over. People without prejudices tend to be comfortable and have no need to explain that 'Hey! They are not racists' when dealing with touchy subjects.

I could be completely wrong though.
 
Last edited:

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
9,090
Reaction score
2,165
Location
Lost Angeles
The movie District 9 got a lot of criticism for portraying all the Nigerians as straight up evil (and a bunch of other issues of racism as well). The filmmaker's defense was basically, oh, all the Nigerians in SA are criminals. Clearly that can't be true, though it is true that SA has Nigerian criminal gangs. That said, the movie did really well in the box office.

I wouldn't do something like that in my own writing, but it's totally possible to sell. Then the question is do you want to...I like alley's suggestion to make some of the good guys from the same community. You could even have them from the same family. That sorta stuff makes for more interesting drama anyways.
 

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
18,889
Reaction score
5,029
Location
We couldn't possibly do that. Who'd clear up the m
Website
francisknightbooks.co.uk
It will probably come across as racist if you don't make them into fully realized characters.

Yup - it may do, unless you show why they do it. They need to steal to get by you say - so show them starving, show what led them to this country, why they think that living hand to mouth here is preferable to living where they were

Make them fully human, sympathetic even though they are fraudsters, same as you should do with any character, and you'll be sound as a pound. Hey every bad guy thinks he's the hero in his own story - show us why they are their heroes.

Actually, a pound ain't that sound just lately, but you get my drift?
 

alleycat

Still around
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Messages
72,890
Reaction score
12,238
Location
Tennessee
Remember too that if you include any kind of current "issue" in a book you will be criticized by one side or the other, and probably both.

Write a novel about an unmarried woman considering an abortion:

If you have the character decide to have the abortion, a number of people will criticize you for condoning the killing of the unborn.

If you have the character decide not to have the abortion on moral grounds, a number of people will criticize you for not being in favor of women's rights, and possibly being a right-wing Christian fundamentalist.
 

bsolah

AW's Resident Commie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
5,379
Reaction score
569
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Website
www.benjaminsolah.com
I think your stats are a bit dodgy. Did you get them from the BNP or something?

I think you're going to get in a lot of trouble writing this and rightfully so.
 

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
8,745
Reaction score
3,096
Location
Toronto, Canada
Website
www.adriennekress.com
The movie District 9 got a lot of criticism for portraying all the Nigerians as straight up evil (and a bunch of other issues of racism as well). The filmmaker's defense was basically, oh, all the Nigerians in SA are criminals. Clearly that can't be true, though it is true that SA has Nigerian criminal gangs. That said, the movie did really well in the box office.

Actually technically the movie never says, "Nigerians began to trade weapons" it clearly says something more along the line of "Nigerian weapons traders" and "warlords" etc (this isn't verbatim, I don't remember the phrase exactly), distinguishing between all Nigerians and bad guys who are Nigerian. But yes, people were extremely sensitive to the representation as you never saw a good Nigerian and it did come across as a generalisation without actually ever stating it.

I like the idea of making some of the good guys the same race as the bad guys.
 

bsolah

AW's Resident Commie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
5,379
Reaction score
569
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Website
www.benjaminsolah.com
I think the depiction of the Nigerians in District 9 was racist as it was a complete generalisation. And it wasn't just that they were Warlords. The stereotypes and depiction of how these people acted, their personalities were completely caricatured and exaggerated.

But back to the original post, the statistics you sight are just plain wrong. These a false statistics used by racists to justify racist stereotypes of immigrants in Britain and has been used by fascists parties like the British National Party to whip up racism that has resulted in many good Muslim people being beaten to death in your country.

But I am against portraying specifically Muslim or Arab people as bad guys for the fact that it supports the racist stereotyped pushed in society and you doing so will reinforce these false ideas that all Muslims are bad people. You give fuel to these ideas, these ideas that result in the violence against immigrants in this country.
 

escritora

.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 21, 2007
Messages
2,995
Reaction score
616
But I am against portraying specifically Muslim or Arab people as bad guys for the fact that it supports the racist stereotyped pushed in society and you doing so will reinforce these false ideas that all Muslims are bad people. You give fuel to these ideas, these ideas that result in the violence against immigrants in this country.

I see nothing wrong with portraying Muslims or Arabs as the bad guys. The suggestions made by others in this thread show the OP how he can tell his story mixed with empathy. Surely all Muslims and Arabs are not all good or all bad. As fiction writers, we are storytellers. IMO, our allegiance is to the story. Not society.
 

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
20,322
Reaction score
3,513
Location
Transcending Canines
I have no clue if the OP's 90 percent figure is anywhere near correct, but the post brought to mind this interesting reading from the "scambaiters" site:
http://419eater.com/html/info.htm
and questions 5 and 9 here:
http://419eater.com/html/ethics.htm
Remember too that if you include any kind of current "issue" in a book you will be criticized by one side or the other, and probably both.

Write a novel about an unmarried woman considering an abortion:

If you have the character decide to have the abortion, a number of people will criticize you for condoning the killing of the unborn.

If you have the character decide not to have the abortion on moral grounds, a number of people will criticize you for not being in favor of women's rights, and possibly being a right-wing Christian fundamentalist.
This is very true, anything you write with any "controversial" content that gets published is sure to attract negative attention (no matter how "careful" or "sensitive" you are about the topic). The scambaiter site admits this in their guidelines, that they are in part in response to racist accusations.
 

bsolah

AW's Resident Commie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 3, 2006
Messages
5,379
Reaction score
569
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Website
www.benjaminsolah.com
I see nothing wrong with portraying Muslims or Arabs as the bad guys. The suggestions made by others in this thread show the OP how he can tell his story mixed with empathy. Surely all Muslims and Arabs are not all good or all bad. As fiction writers, we are storytellers. IMO, our allegiance is to the story. Not society.

Whilst it is true that not all Muslims are all good or all bad, you wouldn't know this from what's in literature at the moment or the media.

You don't write stories in a bubble and yet another book portraying Muslims negatively fuels this stereotype and isn't that original to be honest. It's everywhere.
 

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee
Staff member
Boss Mare
Administrator
Super Moderator
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
VPX
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
22,010
Reaction score
10,707
Location
Out on a limb
Website
macallisterstone.com
The best way to not come across as bigoted, racist, or culturally intolerant, of course, is not to be bigoted, racist, or culturally intolerant.

And since this thread is a complete tinderbox, and to my not-completely-naive-ear has the sound of flamebait, I'm closing it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.