Waiting Time and Exclusives

dlparker · Aug 22, 2009

Thank you, "Wonder". I do hope you're right!

I guess my writerly imagination is getting the best of me. I keep seeing that letter coming next April, (just in time for my birthday), which has this "We liked your book, but we regret to inform you... and then the expression on my face...

I did send this same manuscript (not quite as polished) to Tor on Jan. 31st, and waited until April before I sent it to DAW. Tor clearly just lost it. I had included (as I always do) a pre-addressed pre-stamped "got it" postcard to be dropped in the mail... and I never got it back from them, and I never heard word.

So I wrote them off, and sent it to DAW instead (I never re-sent it to Tor). Manuscripts in the slush pile do sometimes get lost behind the couch it appears. Or get used to housebreak the puppy. Oops! There goes my imagination again...

It's easy to write: painful to market. Ouch, ouch.

Danielle

Terie · Aug 22, 2009

dlparker said:
I did send this same manuscript (not quite as polished) to Tor on Jan. 31st, and waited until April before I sent it to DAW. Tor clearly just lost it. I had included (as I always do) a pre-addressed pre-stamped "got it" postcard to be dropped in the mail... and I never got it back from them, and I never heard word.

That doesn't necessarily mean Tor lost it. Manuscripts in the slush pile often remain unopened until someone reads them. Tor is another publisher who takes a long time to respond. So you never know, you might hear from them months from now.

It doesn't really hurt to include one of those cards, but never assume anything about not receiving it back.

dlparker · Aug 22, 2009

Hi Terie,

Well, if you're right, and it's still languishing unread, I may yet fall out of my tree in shock!

How do the rest of you COPE with these long waits? Do you ignore the exclusive bit, and send it elsewhere after xx number of months waiting? And is it ok to ever write the publisher and inquire whether the manuscript is still under consideration, after "xx" months?? Like, after 6 months could I send DAW a polite inquiry, or will that torpedo the whole gig?

This book does require a sequel, which I am slowly ruminating and doing my background reading for right now, but it is hard to settle to another 5-8 months worth of writing (about what it would take) when the first is still up in the air. I tremendously admire these folks who write a series of six or seven connected books before they've placed even one of them. Not everyone can do that!

Of course, I did finally find a great beta reader (right here from Absolute Write) who read the first one and got so involved in it, and so helpful, she and her husband volunteered and did a lot of research for the sequel on their own. She sent me pages and pages of it. I really got lucky there! (Jackie dear: start blushing!)

Having an enthusiastic reader does encourage a writer--it really does. Otherwise we just feel so... isolated working months on a tome no one's read. And waiting. And waiting.

Dani

Cyia · Aug 22, 2009

NEVER ignore the "exclusive" bit without notifying the one who has the exclusive. Period. If there's no set time frame, then you just have to wait it out. (That's why exclusives are BAD for writers.)

dlparker · Aug 22, 2009

why exclusives are BAD for writers

I imagine if you wrote to an "exclusive" publisher after six months and said, hey, I'd like to hedge my bets so I don't have to wait two years for two submissions, just in case...yeah, that would be the end of it.

So I certainly see your point.

James D. Macdonald · Aug 22, 2009

Yes, write another novel while you're waiting. Don't write the sequel. Write a stand-alone. Don't write the sequel until the first one a) sells, and b) the publisher says, "Say, do you think you could write a sequel?"

When you've finished the next novel you can start sending it around. Then ... write another novel.

Once a book is out the door, forget it. There's nothing more you can do. If it comes back, send it to the next place on your list that same day (don't let a manuscript sleep over). Keep moving. Write more.

And, as others have said, three months is nothing.

dlparker · Aug 22, 2009

Thanks for the advice, Uncle Jim. That does fit my gut feeling.

I can't seem to get reved up on the sequel until the prequel's found a home. Then when it does I'll get REALLY reved up.

I can do background research... think... but the thought of spending six months possibly in vain...

And as they say: if at first you don't succeed, try something else. And at least something else will refresh the well. I may do steampunk next. Or occult horror. Or I've been mulling the idea of a surrealist mystery set in Maya lands. NOW I'm getting enthused again...

waylander · Aug 23, 2009

dlparker said:
I did send this same manuscript (not quite as polished) to Tor on Jan. 31st, and waited until April before I sent it to DAW. Tor clearly just lost it. I had included (as I always do) a pre-addressed pre-stamped "got it" postcard to be dropped in the mail... and I never got it back from them, and I never heard word.

So I wrote them off, and sent it to DAW instead (I never re-sent it to Tor). Manuscripts in the slush pile do sometimes get lost behind the couch it appears. Or get used to housebreak the puppy. Oops! There goes my imagination again...

Danielle

Tor may not have lost your manuscript, it is just in the slushpile, you may even be able to spot it here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/doctorow/3274517945/

Terie · Aug 23, 2009

waylander said:
Tor may not have lost your manuscript, it is just in the slushpile, you may even be able to spot it here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/doctorow/3274517945/

And that's probably only a wee bit of the slush pile. A friend of mine, years ago, got a chance to see the slush 'pile' at a major UK publisher. It was a warehouse. With unopened manuscripts stacked and shrinkwrapped on pallets. Which were moved around by a forklift.

It's not a wonder it takes months for them to get to a given manuscript; it's a wonder they get to it at all. And yet they somehow do it.

'Patience and persistence' are what it takes in this industry. If you want to be a published author (ahem, as opposed to a Published Author), develop these traits right along with 'butt in chair' (which, not incidentally, is closely related to the other two).

nconner · Aug 23, 2009

I sold a manuscript to Ace/Roc through their slush pile. For that publisher, authors submit a query and ten pages electronically through the Web site, which at the time listed an estimated response time of three months. It took about twice that long to hear back from them. I got a request for the next 50 pages, followed pretty quickly by a request for the whole manuscript. The three weeks I waited between getting the request for the full and getting an offer felt MUCH longer than the initial six-month wait.

When you know that your manuscript has passed one hurdle--such as getting a second reading--it's very hard to wait. Like you, I imagined all KINDS of things going on with my manuscript. But Uncle Jim's advice is the best way to keep yourself sane. I started on an unrelated book, then happily shelved it to work on the sequel when Ace requested one.

Good luck!

Nancy Holzner

dlparker · Aug 23, 2009

It was a warehouse

And if you're not pulling my leg... and I begin to have this dim suspicion that you might not be... to think: before I started writing (after the first real bout of unemployment in my up-until-then very busy IT/Telecom career) I had not the faintest how many OTHERS were doing the same thing!

It's good to hear from folks who DID make sales to major publishers, as in, "hope"! I like the cover on your "Dead" book, Nancy. Congratulations.

Oh the slush pile. After all I've read here, "Waylander", when I saw the title inch up on my screen (downloads are slow), I was SURE I was going to see a closeup OF the Flatiron building... showing it composed of slabs of discarded submissions. What a relief.

Now all I have to worry about is that I was too impatient and sent Tor an earlier and dirtier version of the work with a skimpy synopsis... if it's still there.

On to another work. It IS the only thing that will get my mind off it all: writing a brand new story so wild I can't think of anything else!

Steampunk, occult horror, surrealist Mayan mystery. Can I think of anything wilder to help me?

Terie · Aug 23, 2009

dlparker said:
And if you're not pulling my leg... and I begin to have this dim suspicion that you might not be...

Oh, good lord, no, I'm not pulling your leg.

I think it's helpful for people to know what they're facing. Knowledge is power. (And all the rest of those cliches.)

My first book was picked up off a slush pile. They started out contracting the first book in the series, and once the editor read the manuscript of book two, he contracted the remaining three books. It happens. Agents and publishers find new writers all the time. But it takes (say it with me again) patience and persistence, with a main entree of butt-in-chair.

T. Nielsen Hayden · Aug 23, 2009

dlparker said:
I did send this same manuscript (not quite as polished) to Tor on Jan. 31st, and waited until April before I sent it to DAW. Tor clearly just lost it. I had included (as I always do) a pre-addressed pre-stamped "got it" postcard to be dropped in the mail... and I never got it back from them, and I never heard word.

Have you not read the Tor submission guidelines? They say:

Many people include postcards for us to return when the proposal reaches us. Unfortunately, we don't open submissions until we're ready to read them, so you'll likely get the "I got it" postcard the same day you receive our response to your project.

If you want to be sure that your manuscript was delivered to our offices, please ask for a return receipt or a signature confirmation when you post it.

For the record, the US Post Office loses manuscripts a lot oftener than Tor does.

So I wrote them off, and sent it to DAW instead ...

That's your privilege; but you should send Tor a letter saying so.

dlparker · Aug 23, 2009

I never got it back from them

I'm afraid I was working on the assumption it was totally lost, Ms. Nielsen Hayden, since the postcard didn't "ever" come back, so it seemed to me.

I thought about writing TOR in April, and the thought was, well, "if they" (or, as you rightly point out), "the Post Office, lost it, and they get this strange letter about a submission they've never seen..." do I resubmit, then, or try elsewhere? And I did the latter.

You'll have to forgive me, I hope, in that I really had no idea about the waits. Only Baen SAYS "a year". The worst that occurred to me originally was that 2-3 months was most likely. When DAW replied the first time, they were very prompt and amazed me. Of course, as I've found since, it takes a lot longer for a final word.

My apologies, and yes, I do recognize your name as "the" editor for Tor. Thanks for replying. I did not mean to slur Tor here. If you lose a few, or the post office does in what is clearly a mass mailing, I certainly start to understand why.

And I don't suppose you DO remember ever seeing my submission?? Sigh. I'd just like to know if it got gently laid to rest--??? Never mind.

- Danielle

dlparker · Aug 23, 2009

P. S. The original submission to TOR was mailed Jan. 31st, if I remember correctly. That's the date I have written down.

- Danielle

dlparker · Aug 23, 2009

Anyway... thanks to everyone who offered advice to me. I really appreciate it.

I'm not happy with the thought of a year wait, but better to know the worst than rushing out to check the mail every day waiting for the Christmas present to arrive.

And at least I know my submission did get read by someone at DAW and it's still under consideration. (I'll just take out their letter and read it again on bad days.

The most pertinent advice I think I got here was to get on with a totally new book. So here goes. Butt-in-chair time. At least, however hellish marketing is, I love the writing part.

- Danielle

RainbowDragon · Aug 23, 2009

dlparker said:
At least, however hellish marketing is, I love the writing part.

- Danielle

Exactly!

Wayland · Sep 6, 2009

Waiting time

I've been keeping an eye on this thread, and personally I find the extended waiting times at major publishers to be a fundamental violation of the rules of common courtesy. If I submit, I would expect an acknowledgment of receipt within two weeks.

As for the time it takes to get a yes/no... ridiculous. Isn't it written everywhere that the book sells in the first three chapters? How long does it take to read and analyze three chapters? 26 weeks? I don't think so.
Here's a link to Critters.org who have been researching wait times for various book and magazine publishers. I found it very interesting, Take a look and see what you think.

http://www.critters.org/blackholes/sightdata.html

dlparker · Sep 6, 2009

You know, I used to read slush (for a sci fi zine), and you could tell if the work had possibilities within half a dozen pages. By far the majority could be weeded out rapidly because you'd take a look at the first few pages and see that the writer didn't understand, say, basic grammar. Or began the story with infospeak or explanation, or something else that said it was really useless to keep going.

So about 70% (I'm not saying bad writer, perhaps just novice writer, in many cases) could be separated out and politely refused very rapidly. Others I could set aside for a more in-depth review.

I know of no other business/profession where the seller (author in this case) is expected to wait up to a year without either an acknowledgement or an answer, often "exclusive". Writers are told again and again to look at their work "as a business". Does this make sense in business terms?

My own experience was frustrating. My submission never received a response from Tor... now outstanding more than seven months.

Of course, I gave up a lot sooner than seven months and sent it elsewhere, and I did receive a prompt acknowledgement from DAW. But if I'd followed all I'd been told, I would be biting my lip still waiting for an answer for that "exclusive" submission to Tor.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how the current process works as a "business" for writers. I know editors/publishers will probably come back and say well heck they didn't have to read my submission, or slush in general, at all, and I should be so lucky, but... what that leads to is a market that rarely, if ever, hears new voices. Which may be... what we have right now, eh?

Food for thought.

BenPanced · Sep 6, 2009

dlparker said:
I know of no other business/profession where the seller (author in this case) is expected to wait up to a year without either an acknowledgement or an answer, often "exclusive". Writers are told again and again to look at their work "as a business". Does this make sense in business terms?

Ask anybody who's recorded an album demo.

Consider, too, these (in)famous images of the slush piles at Tor and the scope of such a large, well-known sf/f publisher accepting unsolicited submissions.

James D. Macdonald · Sep 6, 2009

If you haven't yet read Slushkiller, now's the time.

dlparker · Sep 6, 2009

Considerm, too, these (in)famous images of the slush piles at Tor and the scope of such a large, well-known sf/f publisher accepting unsolicited submissions.

OK... before I get jumped on, let me make it clear that in no way am I dissing Tor specifically here. Tor was my personal bad experience so that's why it gets mentioned, but looking at the Critters poll that Mr. Waylander posted above, it's clear that in general their response times are as good as or better than many others. So I am speaking in general terms here, not as a vent against one particular publisher.

Your comment seems to imply what I said before: "we should be so lucky just to get an application through the door". Where it sits for up to a year. My answer to that is: with luck like that, new authors should give up and buy lottery tickets.

Yes, indeed, the big ones receive a lot of submissions. But let's stop looking at a manuscript wait of a year as a "favor" to an author, even if the big publisher does eventually look at it. Or that the "exclusive" clause the big publishers insist on is anything but a severe problem for authors.

The overload of submissions gets dealt with in several ways: the lengthy wait, first; accepting only agented submissions being another.

Perhaps editors are severely overworked. Or it's not fiscally prudent to hire interns or slush pile readers who could (as I pointed out above) weed out the worst, which would be the majority, rapidly. And I still say, from my own experience, it doesn't take long to vet 3 chapters of a submission.

So I'm not saying I have an answer. But this hurts publishers, too. They don't see new voices. And it doesn't help relations with authors in the long term.

Perhaps that's irrelevant from their viewpoint--because there are simply more people trying to be authors than they need. When it's a buyer's market, sellers have to swallow and take it.

Wayland · Sep 6, 2009

Wait times.

Exactly. As for the editors and writers that defend this position, perhaps they are in the position of Kipling's butterfly:

"The toad beneath the harrow knows
Exactly where each tooth-point goes;
The butterfly upon the road
Preaches contentment to that toad." - Rudyard Kipling

After all, editors have their careers to protect and the best way to do that is to go with a known writer, with a proven cash flow. An unknown may be the next Stephen King, but....

Don't get me started on agents, they are even worse.

Wayland · Sep 6, 2009

Hmmm. I looked at "Slushkiller "and find that it is nothing more than a defense of the status quo. This is the way it is because this is the way it is. Perhaps if less time was spent on blogging and more on the slush pile the waits wouldn't be so long. Any other business wouldn't last a year if the suppliers were treated this way.

Unimportant · Sep 6, 2009

I agree that long response times are a drag.

I agree that Tor has a reputation for being particularly slow and non-responsive.

I agree that it doesn't take long to reject a piece of crap.

But I'm also aware that a house like Tor gets upwards of 10,000 submissions in their slush pile each year. And if an editor (or slush intern) spends just ten minutes on each submitted manuscript to open the package, catalogue it, skim the first few pages, wince, stuff a form rejection in the SASE, and drop it in the mail bag -- then that person will spend 7 hours per day, every day, doing nothing but rejecting slush. I can't imagine anyone has no other job duties -- so a backlog of slush will naturally grow and grow.

I would guess that Tor, and other NY houses, discover most of their new authors through agented submissions.

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