Do you find this word offensive?

I wouldn't say it's offensive in the context you describe, but it does call up echoes of that stereotype. As a reader, the phrase would have rung that bell in my head.

So, I'd say that using the word is fine, but just be aware that some folks will make that connection.

Sounds realistic. I don't think it's a term that would normally come to mind, but if someone was in a Chinese restaurant, and were aware of the use of the term in the past, they might use it in a sort of tongue-in-cheek way.

I have no idea why that would be offensive.

I don't see how inscrutable is offensive

Boy. I am old and I have no idea why that would not be okay. I even looked it up just to be sure I had the right meaning. Whatever you guys are talking about as far as offensive flew right over my head. In fact, I would like to know why it could be offensive.....

I've never heard that, so it wouldn't bother me, but I'm confused. If the word is describing the Caucasian woman, how is that offensive? Just because they happen to be eating Chinese? I guess if you're really worried about it, you could change to Italian or Indian or something. Sounds like a mountain out of a molehill to me. :twocents:

The word wasn't an insult, it was used in a term "The inscrutable Chinese" It was also used for Indians.

If we start this, where does it go? How many words do the word police need for us to be afraid of using. My books are fraught with bigoted words, and I'd be less inclined to use them if the world stopped telling me what I can and cant say.

You're the author. Don't let this garbage get in your head. It's censorship.

Actually, I thought of "The Inscrutable Fu Manchu" right away. Do a search for it, and you'll bring up a bunch of articles about racial stereotyping. Fu Manchu certainly offended a lot of people, but I'm guessing most people wouldn't have any idea.

Y'know, Wayne raises an excellent point.

I wrote a long post in reply, but Wayne already done said it.

I always thought it was a kind of compliment. It conjurs up the idea of strength of character. I also think it's cleaver used here, for a Caucasian in a Chinese setting. Quite amusing.

JoNightshade said:

Thanks, guys and gals. You basically confirmed what I thought. I'm not much for the word police, but I do like to avoid offending readers unintentionally, you know? If I use a word, I like to be conscious of its full meaning. So I wasn't entirely sure how big of a deal this was. (I am younger and I thought it might be a generational thing.)

Plus I had a bit earlier in the chapter that everyone in my group found offensive, so I'm a little paranoid at the moment.

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I'd find another group!

Mumut said:

I always thought it was a kind of compliment. It conjurs up the idea of strength of character. I also think it's cleaver used here, for a Caucasian in a Chinese setting. Quite amusing.

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Wayne K said:

The word wasn't an insult, it was used in a term "The inscrutable Chinese" It was also used for Indians.

If we start this, where does it go? How many words do the word police need for us to be afraid of using. My books are fraught with bigoted words, and I'd be less inclined to use them if the world stopped telling me what I can and cant say.

You're the author. Don't let this garbage get in your head. It's censorship.

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It is not a compliment, and I know a great many Chinese Americans who would argue that it is an insult because of the word's historical application to Chinese immigrants. Calling the Chinese "inscrutable" has historically been linked to stereotypes about them being crafty, tricky and fundamentally untrustworthy. These stereotypes were used to deny Chinese immigrants US citizenship, the right to buy property and the right to marry even when they'd been working here for years on, ya know, constructing our railroads. If you really want some more info about this because you're not aware of this stereotype, read this.

I get really tired of these complaints about "the language police." No one who's really involved in anti-racism says that you CAN'T use these terms, merely that maybe you should rethink them so you don't come across as an insensitive jerk. It's not about censorship, it's about advocating for thoughtfulness, compassion and empathy - qualities one would think are important for a writer. I really don't understand why people immediately raise the claim of censorship when someone objects to a word choice - freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism, you know. And if you honestly feel so constrained by the suggestion that you rethink using certain words, and it's too tiresome to go to the thesaurus and find a better, less hurtful one, maybe you should think harder about what it means to be a writer. To me that's intellectual laziness of the highest order.


As to the question at hand - I think it will call up those stereotypes in readers, though I don't think you're necessarily using it in a racist way in the scene. Whether or not you want to change it is up to you, but I think you're going to have readers who will wonder why you used that specific word in that context given it's historical association.

Why not turn it into a bit of characterisation. Have the guy actually tell his girlfriend she's inscrutable, have her do a double take, then have him blush/laugh awkwardly/whatever when he realises why. I don't see why that word should be offensive in the context you describe. It's a perfectly good word.

aquacat said:

It is not a compliment, and I know a great many Chinese Americans who would argue that it is an insult because of the word's historical application to Chinese immigrants. Calling the Chinese "inscrutable" has historically been linked to stereotypes about them being crafty, tricky and fundamentally untrustworthy. These stereotypes were used to deny Chinese immigrants US citizenship, the right to buy property and the right to marry even when they'd been working here for years on, ya know, constructing our railroads. If you really want some more info about this because you're not aware of this stereotype, read this.

I get really tired of these complaints about "the language police." No one who's really involved in anti-racism says that you CAN'T use these terms, merely that maybe you should rethink them so you don't come across as an insensitive jerk. It's not about censorship, it's about advocating for thoughtfulness, compassion and empathy - qualities one would think are important for a writer. I really don't understand why people immediately raise the claim of censorship when someone objects to a word choice - freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism, you know. And if you honestly feel so constrained by the suggestion that you rethink using certain words, and it's too tiresome to go to the thesaurus and find a better, less hurtful one, maybe you should think harder about what it means to be a writer. To me that's intellectual laziness of the highest order.


As to the question at hand - I think it will call up those stereotypes in readers, though I don't think you're necessarily using it in a racist way in the scene. Whether or not you want to change it is up to you, but I think you're going to have readers who will wonder why you used that specific word in that context given it's historical association.

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Using a thesaurus is the highest order of intellectual laziness. IMHO.

inscrutable:
mysterious, arcane, mystic, inexplicable, poker-faced, enigmatic.

No thesaurus required.

How exactly, am I going to tell someone I have a lazy eye n a Mexican restaurant? Or that I bought a cheap suit, in a synagogue? Should I not use the term "Nip this thing in the bud" in a Japanese restaurant. For that fact we should outlaw the word 'ugly' in America. Should the Irish have protested the movie 'Shrek'?

And the word police are hard at work, so I'll stop when they do.

dpaterso said:

I can make the (possibly bigoted) stereotype connection easily... my thought is that the protag's choice of word may have been influenced by his surroundings. (Tho' for all I know this is part of his character makeup, something you want to include.)

Westerners sometimes do have problems reading Asian expressions which has led to the "inscrutable" label. Avoiding this may well be an overdose of political correctness as the stereotype stems from factual reality. And yet... I'm leaning towards finding an alternative just to avoid readers making the same connection I made.

-Derek

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I would agree Derek except for one thing. It wasn't used in a racist way, so there's no reason to change your words because someone wants to pick it apart.

This kind of crap furthers racism, it doesn't curb it.

Wayne K said:

How exactly, am I going to tell someone I have a lazy eye n a Mexican restaurant? Or that I bought a cheap suit, in a synagogue? Should I not use the term "Nip this thing in the bud" in a Japanese restaurant. For that fact we should outlaw the word 'ugly' in America. Should the Irish have protested the movie 'Shrek'?

And the word police are hard at work, so I'll stop when they do.

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This is just silly. There is actually a legitimate basis for thinking about why some words are hurtful and why some aren't - it's called history and context. There's no equivalency between saying that someone has a lazy eye when they're in a Mexican restaurant and calling a Chinese person inscrutable. And if you read my entire post, you can clearly see that I said I didn't think she was using the word in a racist way (since she's not calling the Chinese people inscrutable), merely that people might make those links because of the usage. And since both people in her group and people on this board have made those links, clearly I'm not the only one who's aware that there's a pretty painful history of anti-Chinese sentiment that's tied up in the word "inscrutable." Arguing that that's somehow equivalent to complaining about a cheap suit in a synagogue is silly, unless the context is something along the lines of "look at all those cheap suits on those cheap Jews." Language isn't just about word meaning, it's about contextual use, which is as much about how your words impact those who hear them as about what words you choose to use or not use to convey your message.

And incidentally, I'm pretty sure Mike Meyers performs Shrek as Scottish, not Irish.

aquacat said:

This is just silly. There is actually a legitimate basis for thinking about why some words are hurtful and why some aren't - it's called history and context. There's no equivalency between saying that someone has a lazy eye when they're in a Mexican restaurant and calling a Chinese person inscrutable. And if you read my entire post, you can clearly see that I said I didn't think she was using the word in a racist way (since she's not calling the Chinese people inscrutable), merely that people might make those links because of the usage. And since both people in her group and people on this board have made those links, clearly I'm not the only one who's aware that there's a pretty painful history of anti-Chinese sentiment that's tied up in the word "inscrutable." Arguing that that's somehow equivalent to complaining about a cheap suit in a synagogue is silly, unless the context is something along the lines of "look at all those cheap suits on those cheap Jews." Language isn't just about word meaning, it's about contextual use, which is as much about how your words impact those who hear them as about what words you choose to use or not use to convey your message.

And incidentally, I'm pretty sure Mike Meyers performs Shrek as Scottish, not Irish. I know it might be hard to tell the difference if you're not aware of the significant differences in accents, history, culture, etc, but there is a difference.

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It's the exact same thing. The Chinese weren't called Inscrutables, it was part of the term 'Inscrutable Chinese'. You can't honestly tell me that the word should be erased from out language because people want to look for things to be offended by. It is the same as being offended by any use of the word 'cheap' because they're called 'Cheap Jews' it's the same as the use of the word 'lazy' because they are called 'lazy Mexicans'

The easier you make it for people to be offended, the more people you'll offend. If the person used the term 'inscrutable Chinese' I'd agree with you, but that isn't the case.

Oh, and as to Shrek, I was referring to the use of the word Donkey, not the accent.

Crazy idea: Why not ask someone of Chinese extraction what they would think?

I realise that there may be some such in this discussion, but I have no way of knowing. Avatars can be so, well...

inscrutable.

poetinahat said:

Crazy idea: Why not ask someone of Chinese extraction what they would think?
.

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Is that a cheap attempt at calling me lazy