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Ruth2
08-13-2009, 10:15 PM
If a DC policeman traveled overseas in pursuit of a suspect, can s/he Miranda-ize them on foreign soil and have it valid?

Thanks for any info you may share.

RJK
08-13-2009, 11:21 PM
A police officer from the US would have no authority to arrest anyone in a foriegn country. If a police officer from the foriegn country made the arrest, and the US cop read the arrestee the Miranda rights, it would mean nothing. those rights only apply ot someone arrested in the US.
I'm sure people arrested in other countries havesimilar rights, but that would depend entirely on that country's laws. In some countries, you do not have the right to free counsel, etc.
By the way, if a US police officer were to try to take someone into custody in a foriegn country on his own, he would be violating the law (Unlawful imprisonment, or something. similar).
A cop from one state, say Virginia, cannot arrest someone in Pennsylvania, even with a warrant. He must ask the PA cop to execute the warrant, and then the arrested person would go through extradition hearings.

Maryn
08-13-2009, 11:29 PM
Yeah, what he said. I hesitated to answer because my so-called knowledge stems from a great many hours of watching Law & Order. Dang, I would have been right!

Maryn, checking to see if elephants are flying, too

Ruth2
08-13-2009, 11:30 PM
Thanks RJK! That is very helpful.

jclarkdawe
08-14-2009, 12:29 AM
Law school and bar exams are designed to produce the weirdest possible scenarios that the tester can imagine. There is one scenario that might apply to your facts, although it is extremely unlikely.

Criminal flees to Europe for a non-capital crime. (Getting an arrest for a capital crime in Europe, which mostly does not have the death penalty, is extremely difficult.) Police officer, while on vacation, recognizes the criminal as the waiter who serves him at the cafe. Police officer calls his department and has his department send him information on the criminal and the crime (Which needs to be fairly serious. I've seen cases where a police department won't go into the next state to pick up one of their criminals. This is rapidly going to get very expensive.)

Armed with the information from his department, the police officer approaches the local police to arrest the guy. Local police look at the information and decide the police officer might be right. At this point, lots of higher ups get involved, including the national governments. Eventually, the local police are allowed to arrest the guy.

The police officer is still on vacation when this happens. As a courtesy, the local police allow the police officer to question the criminal. At that point, as the police officer is acting as an agent of his police department, he would be required to Mirandize the criminal. I'm not sure why he would want to talk to the criminal, as they would have to have all the evidence they need to convict the criminal before the foreign police would arrest, but it's possible to happen.

This scenario would not apply in the case of terrorism crimes. And it isn't likely to happen in any case. But if you absolutely have to have it in your book, this works.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Ruth2
08-14-2009, 01:29 AM
Maryn: Ain't it great when they get one of those things right? (Elephants only fly on Tuesdays. Today is the day for flying rhinos.)

jclarkdawe: Well, as it so happens, your scenario is close. However both parties are house guests in the same house and the policeman is framing the woman for a series of particularly nasty murders he committed. (Dismembered bodies, et al). He's already killed 4 people that the woman knows; two others were killed when a bomb went off that he paid to have placed in her jet.

Can detectives Mirandize? Not on foreign soil, just generally.

Thanks y'all!

jclarkdawe
08-14-2009, 02:47 AM
Since your located in Texas, I'm going to assume your book takes place in Texas as well. You're describing a capital crime, in which the State of Texas would seek the death penalty. Even England isn't that fond of returning people to Texas, and other countries are even worse.

Let's look at the timeline for Cesar Laurean. On 11 January 2008, his wife was discovered murdered and an arrest warrant was issued for Laurean. People had already realized that Laurean had fled and was probably in Mexico (he has dual citizenship, but it really doesn't matter -- Mexico doesn't extradite when a criminal defendant faces the death penalty). He was arrested on 10 April 2008 in Mexico and refused to come to the US.

Finally, a year later, on 19 April 2009, he was returned to the US, after North Carolina agreed not to sentence him to death. Earliest the case is going to be tried in this fall.

And this case isn't moving all that slowly. France had a suspected murderer there for years before it even arrested the guy. You've got to go into the foreign country and convince the government that the criminal is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (technically not accurate, but it will sure feel that way to the prosecutor).

You can do this in a novel, but you're going to have to do some things to the truth probably to make it work. In your scenario, I'd have the dirty cop bribing the officials to extradite the guy.

Any police officer must Mirandize any criminal defendant who is in custody prior to questioning him/her, subject to a whole lot of exceptions. This includes detectives.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Tsu Dho Nimh
08-15-2009, 06:53 AM
If a DC policeman traveled overseas in pursuit of a suspect, can s/he Miranda-ize them on foreign soil and have it valid?

Thanks for any info you may share.

Nope. He has to work with the local cops, and local laws. The exact terms would be in the treaty between the USA and the foreign country.

And even then, there is a formal extradition hearing UNLESS the foreign country can find (or wants to find) a reason to deport the arrested person. If they can find a fast way to deport, they sometimes will. Andrew Luster, for example, had entered Mexico with a forged ID, so the Mexican government used that to 'expel" him.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/80268/the_extradition_of_duane_dog_chapman.html


AND - as explained, many countries will not extradite unless the USA agrees no death penalty. It's in their laws.

Ruth2
08-15-2009, 08:34 AM
jclarkdawe: Thanks. The country in question is France so what you said is most helpful. And yes he's a dirty cop, very much so. If the extradition worked, he'd be taking the suspect back to D.C. and Virginia (he killed in both places.)

Tsu Dho Nimh: Thanks. I doubt the country would be interested in extraditing my MC. She had no motive and no opportunity; the detective had both. Well, motive's shaky for him but then he's slipped a cog himself.

Thanks, y'all!

DavidZahir
08-15-2009, 08:59 AM
Damn. Thought you were asking a question about The Tempest.

Ruth2
08-15-2009, 06:17 PM
Hey David! Sorry to disappoint you..... but thanks for stopping by!

I do have a teapot you might be interested in.... (sorry, bad joke..)

ideagirl
08-19-2009, 10:55 PM
Nope. He has to work with the local cops, and local laws. The exact terms would be in the treaty between the USA and the foreign country.

And even then, there is a formal extradition hearing UNLESS the foreign country can find (or wants to find) a reason to deport the arrested person.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't extradite someone merely because another country wants to arrest them, right? Doesn't the other country have to actually charge them with a crime first (except, obviously, in extradition cases that arise when a convicted criminal flees a jurisdiction and you have to extradite him to bring him back for sentencing and/or prison)?

One other detail, though it's not relevant to the original poster's story: there's now such a thing as a European arrest warrant, valid throughout Europe--it has replaced extradition between EU member states.
http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj/criminal/extradition/fsj_criminal_extradition_en.htm
Just an informational tidbit that might come in handy for someone here...

The Lonely One
08-19-2009, 11:07 PM
Can detectives Mirandize? Not on foreign soil, just generally.

Thanks y'all!

Yes. Detectives are also officers of the law. They do investigative work but they also conduct arrests.

As far as I understand, a state attorney (not sure about assistants) can make an arrest, as he is an officer of the law as well. It's rare but it happened down here not too long ago.