Reincarnation

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semilargeintestine

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The other thread got closed before I got an answer.

I am interested in what other faiths believe as far as reincarnation goes. Orthodox Judaism believes very strongly in it, but I'm not sure if it is the same as in other faiths. I assumed it was until someone mentioned that there are different types of reincarnation depending on the belief system. I am ignorant to any of them except my own faith's, so I'm looking for some enlightenment. :)
 

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Buddhist transmigration, in some traditions, can be likened to the leaves on a tree. The tree is barren in the winter, and then bears leaves all through the year until winter comes again. Next spring, the tree has new leaves. These are not the same leaves as they were last year, but they have the same source.
 

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This is a good question SLI, and I'll try and be helpful and constructive here.

As a rational materialist I'm a firm believer in reincarnation. I think it's not only plausible but provable. Unfortunately I think that it's not the reincarnation that many imagine it to be. To talk about it, I need to take us back to Africa.

Religions have been interested in the survival of self in some form since at least the Epic of Gilgamesh -- so 2150-2000 BCE. There are lots of different stories about how the self survives, but for me the foundational one comes from ancient Egypt.

The ancient Egyptians believed that our self breaks into five pieces: a body, a šwt (shadow), a ba (personality or soul), a ka (life-force), and a name. The ba was effectively the mind, and they located it in the heart, not the brain. After death, different pieces could go in different directions at will, but the ultimate goal of the faithful was to rejoin their ba and ka and become immortal.

Preservation of the original body was essential to provide a home for the ba and ka, which is why they'd mummify the bodies of kings and priests -- but even the poor looked forward to having a mumified body, thanks to the dry desert air. After death the mummies would be symbolically re-animated by a priest -- but they were more used as a fetish for some symbolic body in the after-life than trying to get the old body to move again. This thinking isn't reincarnation because it's not literally 'being made flesh again', but it's awfully close. The burial of goods with the dead was meant to furnish their after-lives with real property -- and the Chinese do this today too, using paper symbols for money and goods. I don't know of any Egyptian stories of mummies coming back to life, but I find it hard to imagine that they didn't have them. It'd take a very unusual mind to look at a mummified body surrounded by burial goods and not imagine it moving. :eek:

What's most interesting to me about this thinking is how the self splits up. I don't know, but I imagine that if I were an ancient Egyptian I'd identify my 'self' with my ba and name and shadow. The ka would be a commodity -- I'd prefer my own, but perhaps any ka could do. My šwt is the image of my body, and I'd like to keep that to remind me of my own shape. My ba is what I know to be me, and my name is what others know to be me. If I were to go mad I'd be a name without a ba, perhaps. Or if I were outcast I'd be a ba without a name -- both terrible plights to suffer. And if I died and my ka were lost, I'd be a mind without a life -- a ghost perhaps able to see lives but miserably unable to enjoy one. Even worse.

I think that Egyptian thinking is foundational because it highlights all the problems that we have to think about regarding death: What happens to my mind? What happens to my animating spark? What happens to my name or social identity -- my relationships and status? What about my shape? What about the comforts I accumulated in life?

Reincarnation tells several different stories depending on which culture you ask -- and even within the same culture there can be robust differences of opinion:
  1. You can come back in the same body, or a different one;
  2. You may keep your possessions and comforts, or not;
  3. Your mind comes back intact; or
  4. Your mind comes back, but it forgets most of what it knew; your personality and moral identity (your reputation with the gods, the powers of fate etc... -- essentially your true name) are preserved
  5. Neither your mind nor your personality come back, but your moral identity is preserved; or
  6. Your mind comes back, but your moral identity is reset -- you get a new name, and are free from any bad reputation you accumulated in your last life; or
  7. Nothing is preserved except the ka spark which animated you; or
  8. You don't get another body so it's not reincarnation, but otherwise one of the above things happens to the rest of you anyway. :D
As a materialist I'm obliged to acknowledge that our body changes our mind. The ageing process that occurs, the way we lay down memories mean that I cannot recover the child-mind I once was -- I can only remember it with growing dimness. As we age we lose memories, thought function, our sense of humour. We literally lose the minds we had... and should we grow old enough we lose our minds entirely.

For this reason I can't credit any form of afterlife that preserves mind intact, because we can't even preserve it in life. But also as a materialist I realise that our minds leave records -- in our art and philosophy, say -- and the records of minds can be fascinating. So I think that part of our minds can reincarnate -- just not the whole of them.

That leaves what happens to my moral identity (my "name" if you will) and my life-spark.

I think that in some social sense, your society preserves your name for you -- for a while, at least. In the statues and images of leaders we reincarnate their moral identities. In family albums and heirlooms we give ourselves something to heap praise or calumny upon. Granddad's ormolu clock becomes the reincarnation of grandfather's name. Shakespeare's name reincarnates on every print of his plays and poems, and on every print of this rather swish, if balding, portrait.

shakespeare.jpg


So to my materialist's eye, parts of our minds can reincarnate and so do our names -- sometimes together as with Shakespeare, and sometimes separately -- e.g. in statues and family records where you get the name, but not the mind.

But the moral identity itself mutates according to our growing myths about a person, and preserving the myths about all our dead is a growing burden. Some (like historians and geneology enthusiasts) shoulder that burden willingly, but many don't really bother. In consequence, your name eventually mutates in what it means to people, and eventually your own society and culture move on and much of what's said about you becomes lies... or in the worst case your name becomes just an entry in a book somewhere, or a mark upon a gravestone, a plaque on some wall -- devoid of meaning entirely.

That just leaves the ka and rationalistically, I don't care about the ka. I borrow the atoms of my body from so much other life -- plants and dead animals and maggots and beetles and squillions of bacteria, and atoms that have perhaps never been part of life before -- and all of those atoms are borrowed. I only lease them. The energy that lets them connect and reconnect isn't my energy, yet for a while it animates me and allows me to have mind and name. But then that energy goes and does other things that are unrelated to life -- the energy of those atoms help to create weather, or soil, or sea or fossils or whatever else.

For this reason I don't see the energy of life as special -- it's just a phase of energy. Life is special to me, but only because I have mind. But I couldn't have the energy of my life if it weren't for the energy of non-life around me -- and some of that non-life was once living, so I really need to be grateful to the once-living for now being dead. If they weren't dead, I couldn't live at all. And meanwhile I need to be reconciled to my own destruction of body and mind and name, because it will give other bodies and minds and names a chance to experience a life that they can enjoy, as I enjoy mine.

So since I'm talking to authors-aspirant, I can wish you all a cordial reincarnation -- or several, in fact. I hope that the better parts of your mind reincarnate in writings that people will treasure through multiple reprints. I hope that your name will reincarnate in your writings and images, and that people will heap praise and not calumny on it. I hope that when you die (and not too soon) your ka breaks into a million pieces of life and unlife, and gives countless beings their own chance at life, and that they are somehow dimly grateful for your own gracious death allowing them to live. :D
 
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The other thread got closed before I got an answer.

I am interested in what other faiths believe as far as reincarnation goes. Orthodox Judaism believes very strongly in it, but I'm not sure if it is the same as in other faiths. I assumed it was until someone mentioned that there are different types of reincarnation depending on the belief system. I am ignorant to any of them except my own faith's, so I'm looking for some enlightenment. :)

Overall, the official Catholic position is against it but I, as a Catholic, believe very strongly in it.
 

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On a molecular level, of course, we are all incarnations of entities -- animals and plants -- that have gone before us. Some of the molecules in me undoubtedly were once in, say, an ancient trilobite, who passed them on to a dinosaur, who loaned them to saber-toothed tiger, thence to a Ponderosa pine, and so on. Our bodies consist of materials on loan from the universe.
 

semilargeintestine

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So since I'm talking to authors-aspirant, I can wish you all a cordial reincarnation -- or several, in fact. I hope that the better parts of your mind reincarnate in writings that people will treasure through multiple reprints. I hope that your name will reincarnate in your writings and images, and that people will heap praise and not calumny on it. I hope that when you die (and not too soon) your ka breaks into a million pieces of life and unlife, and gives countless beings their own chance at life, and that they are somehow dimly grateful for your own gracious death allowing them to live. :D

Very interesting. The Jewish concept of reincarnation is a bit similar if I'm following you correctly. We believe that the body is a transient vessel in this world, so if a soul needs to come back, it will do so in a completely different body (obviously). And so the concept of the body being a reincarnation of many different life forces jives with us too.

But, it is possible that only a part of the soul could need to come back, or perhaps different parts have different things left unfinished and need to go back in different bodies. So one soul could potentially reincarnate into multiple people. We essentially believe that the soul is light--energy.
 

semilargeintestine

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On a molecular level, of course, we are all incarnations of entities -- animals and plants -- that have gone before us. Some of the molecules in me undoubtedly were once in, say, an ancient trilobite, who passed them on to a dinosaur, who loaned them to saber-toothed tiger, thence to a Ponderosa pine, and so on. Our bodies consist of materials on loan from the universe.

I always wanted to be a dinosaur. I might be part t-rex after all. :D
 

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As a materialist I'm obliged to acknowledge that our body changes our mind. The ageing process that occurs, the way we lay down memories mean that I cannot recover the child-mind I once was -- I can only remember it with growing dimness. As we age we lose memories, thought function, our sense of humour. We literally lose the minds we had... and should we grow old enough we lose our minds entirely.

For this reason I can't credit any form of afterlife that preserves mind intact, because we can't even preserve it in life.

This is one case where the absence of evidence, in my opinion, supports the spiritual, and not the material perspective. Take an ant colony: we know fairly well that they communicate with chemicals, but we have no idea what the factor that controls their hive-mind is. They move in a very organized way, and always to a well-planned purpose. Their ant-burrows have an amazing complexity to them, and often even have portions that will be safe in a bad storm. But even their queen is not the planner, here. Somehow, and this has never been adequately explained, the ant colony organizes itself. Chemical trails and basic instincts can get one only so far when considering an ant colony. There's still the unidentified organizing unit, the thing that determined that this chemical trail marks the way to food, the other one to safety; there's still the question of which ant designed the ant-hill, which ant decided burrowing in the dirt was a good idea, and why the ants may decide to evict a local termite colony.

There is no evidence to support, in the case of an ant colony, a material organizing unit. And I see the same problem even in humanity. Yes, our brains give orders to our bodies. But... what controls the brain? Random impulses? What causes the impulses? And in this, I find a vague, yet unexplored spot where an animating spark or a soul or what have you could exist.
 

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This is one case where the absence of evidence, in my opinion, supports the spiritual, and not the material perspective.
As a secular humanist I don't see a distinction between the spiritual and the material -- they're coterminous for me, since for me spirit is about mind, morality, ethics, relationships and society -- and those things are informed by material observations and our spritual thought creates material impacts.

I interpret you to mean superstitious -- in the literal sense of super+stare meaning 'To stand above' (e.g. to stand above the problem and our observations). Our ignorance always courts a superstitious answer as a prelude to some other more practical answer. We did that with chemistry, physics, astronomy, biology, medicine, and psychology too. We were wrong every time, but we still do it.

I prefer to leave the cracks as cracks to remind me of my ignorance and save the effort of digging stuff out later, but that's just me -- some folk can't live with gaping holes in the walls, and they fill it with whatever comes to hand. It's natural to mortar the interstices of our knowledge with 'superstices' -- and just as natural to dig the superstition out again when we have a more rational and illuminating answer.
There is no evidence to support, in the case of an ant colony, a material organizing unit. And I see the same problem even in humanity.
I'll come back to that at the end, but to continue...

What sort of better answer? That's speculative, but I used to research in the area of Artificial Intelligence and can offer some suggestions:
  • We know from both modelling and experiment that simple genetic activity (combination and selection) can produce extraordinarily adaptive complexity. This has been used in mathematical models to solve certain kinds of problems. Called Genetic Algorithms, the methods are stochastic (i.e. contain randomness), and can be very effective, but can be so simple that a child can set them up.
  • We know from modelling and experiment that neural networks can perform complex recognition and adaptation functions.
  • Certain mineralogical processes show extraordinary adaptation and surprising order too, and this has been used in a technique called simulated annealing to solve real-world problems.
  • Chaos theory also connects -- we have systems with very few inputs and no inherent computation that nevertheless offer high levels of adaptation. We're starting to use these approaches to things like making traffic more intelligent (e.g. the 'magic roundabout')
For me, order from chaos will always look magical even if we learn to do it reliably. I love how ants learn about their changing environment and respond to it. While it would delight me if ants were themselves neurons in a self-aware ant mind, I don't think it at all likely. We can already do much of what ants do using simple mathematical formulae. We can even make dumb commuters do smarter things without even realising that they're doing them. :D

I'm very confident that we'll crack ants using existing techniques. We've almost got it. With military levels of spending I think we'll have basic ant adaptation solved in the next decade.

The complexity of human mind is a much longer task -- we're still working out what mind is. I'm pretty convinced that not all of it is located in the skull -- we might need to be more holistic about it. But once we get ants I think we'll be able to chip away at a lot of adaptive human behaviours -- especially the subconscious intuitive ones that so mystify us.

Will we ever be able to get a computer to simulate a human mind? It depends on how closely you want to look. In the 1966 we could already pass a computer off as a human in limited situations and we weren't even trying. By 1984 a colleague of mine was able to get a computer to simulate a stoned forum poster -- again, without really trying (Mark V. Shaney is still smarter than a lot of the P&CE posts we get. :D). There are some serious challenges in understanding the operation of mind, but we humans are fairly easy to fool too because we invent mind even when it's not there. ("Stupid chair!")

If we end up getting mind simulated reliably then I think we may have to face the prospect of self being entirely an illusion of how mind operates. That's been an Eastern philosophical proposition for over a milennium, but there's some psychology heading that way now too. But if it pans out then I think that afterlife may disappear (after I imagine, a huge struggle, and probably not in our lifetimes), and reincarnation may become irrelevant. What might happen then I don't know. Religions won't go away. Perhaps we'll go back to ba and ka?
 
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Sean D. Schaffer

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I'm Pagan, and I believe in reincarnation as well. But I don't know what kind of reincarnation I believe in (i.e. what it's exactly called). I believe that my same spirit has lived several thousand lives, each one, of course, being in a different kind of body. I noticed your post on being a T-Rex, SLI, and I hold to a similar belief myself. I don't see it as far-fetched at all to believe that I was an animal at some points in my existence and later incarnated as other beings, etc.

And on a side note: I am amazed to find out what you said in your original post about your religion believing in reincarnation. I have never heard that before, and have been wondering about that for years.


Blessed Be. :)
 

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and should we grow old enough we lose our minds entirely.

For this reason I can't credit any form of afterlife that preserves mind intact, because we can't even preserve it in life.

Then your assumption is that this dimension is the most powerful. If you mind fails here, then it must fail in all other dimensions?

Actually you can regain the childlike mind. All that takes is to be forgetful to the point of everything being new again. Old long forgotten memories can come back. There are well documented cases of people after a stroke forgetting their current language and suddenly being fluent in a long forgotten childhood language. It's in there. They just don't know how to access the memories. It could be that after death, the mind being unburdened from the body can reaccess all of the life's memories.
 

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Then your assumption is that this dimension is the most powerful. If you mind fails here, then it must fail in all other dimensions?
Being a rational materialist I'd need you to define 'other dimension' and demonstrate constructive material evidence of its existence and the likelihood of mind to exist there before I could hold a discussion about it with you outside of fiction. :)
Actually you can regain the childlike mind.
There is organic brain deterioration as we age. We don't know how to reverse it and it affects capacities of mind. To persuade me that it doesn't matter, please remove your brain and talk to me. I'd also give partial credit if you took up a job as an infomercial actor instead. :D
 
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semilargeintestine

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I'm Pagan, and I believe in reincarnation as well. But I don't know what kind of reincarnation I believe in (i.e. what it's exactly called). I believe that my same spirit has lived several thousand lives, each one, of course, being in a different kind of body. I noticed your post on being a T-Rex, SLI, and I hold to a similar belief myself. I don't see it as far-fetched at all to believe that I was an animal at some points in my existence and later incarnated as other beings, etc.

And on a side note: I am amazed to find out what you said in your original post about your religion believing in reincarnation. I have never heard that before, and have been wondering about that for years.


Blessed Be. :)

Just to note, I want to make it clear that Judaism does not believe that we could at one point have been animals. When I said I may have been a t-rex, I meant simply that part of my body could be made up of molecules that once existed inside a t-rex or something. I don't even know if that's possible, but it sounds cool.
 

semilargeintestine

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Then your assumption is that this dimension is the most powerful. If you mind fails here, then it must fail in all other dimensions?

I don't think that's necessarily true. We may be sent back here to fulfill a mission or to finish our obligation of fulfilling the 613 mitzvot (obviously this is related just to Jews), but it doesn't mean we will remember past lives or even anything from the spiritual plane. The point is to not know what is going on in that world. In fact, it is taught that right before we enter our bodies at birth, an angel teaches us the entire Torah and then makes us forget it. The point is that we have it stored away somewhere so that we are innately drawn to it, but we still have to learn it and come to love it.

Actually you can regain the childlike mind. All that takes is to be forgetful to the point of everything being new again. Old long forgotten memories can come back. There are well documented cases of people after a stroke forgetting their current language and suddenly being fluent in a long forgotten childhood language. It's in there. They just don't know how to access the memories. It could be that after death, the mind being unburdened from the body can reaccess all of the life's memories.

This describes pretty well what I just wrote.
 

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Just to note, I want to make it clear that Judaism does not believe that we could at one point have been animals. When I said I may have been a t-rex, I meant simply that part of my body could be made up of molecules that once existed inside a t-rex or something. I don't even know if that's possible, but it sounds cool.
I not only think it's possible, I think it's probable, although I probably was part of a dumb herbivore with a brain the size of a walnut or an ancient insect crawling over the forest floor. Most molecules are as old, or nearly as old, as the universe. And SLI, you'd make an excellent Tyrannosaurus, and I mean that in the best way.
 

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"I've got a mouth that could eat a mammoth, and arms that couldn't break a matzo-cracker, but I should complain?"
 
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semilargeintestine

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Jewishaurus Rex lives in the Chassidish section of Pangea. He hunts good bargains and only eats kosher triceratops.
 

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Being a rational materialist I'd need you to define 'other dimension' and demonstrate constructive material evidence of its existence and the likelihood of mind to exist there before I could hold a discussion about it with you outside of fiction. :)

First prove to a square that cubes are not myth. If multiple dimensions work in math, why shouldn't they work in theology?

To persuade me that it doesn't matter,

non sequitor
 

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First prove to a square that cubes are not myth. If multiple dimensions work in math, why shouldn't they work in theology?
Well, that's a very Platonic view of the world -- if it's beautiful then it must be universal. Keats might have agreed with you. Plato is a friend to poets and mystics.

As a rational materialist I'm more Aristotelian. Aristotle is a friend of scientists. I don't have to prove anything unless I first claim something, but if I claim something then I do need to supply evidence. So if I claim that say, an ant-colony probably isn't self-aware but that elephants probably are then I need to point to material things that my fellow humans can check and confirm independently of me, or hush my mouth.

However, when folk want to talk about fiction as reality I don't actually have to think about those claims unless they supply the same sorts of evidence that I'm obliged to supply myself. You're not obliged to supply evidence of our minds existing in other dimensions, but I'm free to treat the proposition as just poetry until you do. :D

(Poetic dreamery is worthwhile in its own right, by the way -- I just separate it from any discussion about reality for the purposes of rational hygeine)
 

semilargeintestine

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(Shudders in horror at the memories) Matzo is to me what silver is to werewolves.

I wasn't going to say anything, but they also aren't crackers. They're bread, just unleavened.

Also, it's nasty. And I'm Jewish.
 

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Just to note, I want to make it clear that Judaism does not believe that we could at one point have been animals. When I said I may have been a t-rex, I meant simply that part of my body could be made up of molecules that once existed inside a t-rex or something. I don't even know if that's possible, but it sounds cool.


Oh, I didn't mean it that way, SLI. I just meant that I personally hold that belief. I know I sometimes don't come across too clearly, but that's what I meant.

My post was more surprise than anything else at you saying Orthodox Judaism believed in reincarnation. I'd never heard that before, and so that was totally new to me.
 

semilargeintestine

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Really? It's a pretty big part of our faith. We also believe in resurrection (one big one when Moshiach comes).
 
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