Is there a psychiatrist in the house?

YAwriter72

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I have a teenage girl who was forced to either commit murder or be killed. She ends up killing several classmates including her boyfriend. After the event, instead of sympathy, she finds people blamed her for not choosing to just let him kill her instead and save the others lives. She tries to kill herself out of guilt and ends up in a residential mental facility.

I have questions about PTSD, Survivors guilt and exactly what would happen to her in the facility. She chooses to stay medicated because she just doesn't care about anything anymore, but can she do that? What meds would they give her? What would the treatment be for someone like this? How would one get past what happened and begin healing?

I've looked all over the Internet, but its a lot of general information and not anything I can really use.

Help?
 

JulieHowe

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Those convicted/plead guilty/found insane for violent crimes will not usually be placed into a residential mental health facility. If she was a participant in a multiple homicide, then she's doing hard time in adult prison or a high-level juvenile criminal center with fences, walls and armed guards.

Without good health insurance or wealthy parents to underwrite the cost of her care, there is very little help available for a teenager in a mental crisis. Once a kid has a documented history of violence, she'll have the hardest time getting the mental health services that she needs, especially if she's poor, under-insured or not insured at all.
 

StephanieFox

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So if someone holds a gun to your head and says kill or be killed, you are still guilty of murder if you pull the trigger?

I never thought of it from that angle. Damn.

You may or may not be legally guilty of homicide, depending on the prosecutor.
 

YAwriter72

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Oooh, this could add a nice twist too. Thank you for the info! Crap, it blew holes in my plot instead.

I needed MC to be severely traumatized and guilt ridden. But I don't think this will work now. Could a teenager, especially a girl, really kill others to selfishly save herself. *sigh*
 
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Wiskel

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I can only talk from the point of view of the English system, not the US healthcare system.

There's a few questions that will help clarify what happens to this girl.

1. Are you talking before or after the court proceedings?

Anyone who commits murder will first off go into police custody. If they need psychiatric help then there are a few things that might happen.

a. A psychiatrist or CPN (community psychiatric nurse) working for the court laison service gets asked to see her in the police custody cell. They may suggest the girl is admitted to hospital for help. The hospital would almost certainly be a regional secure unit where she would be behind locked doors. They can only suggest though, not enforce this, but in reality the police are very unlikely to say no as typically this doesn't get recomended all that often.

b. She winds up on remand and may get access to a psychiatrist visiting her prison / centre. She may recieve treatment there or they could recomend transfer to hospital.

c. She slips through the cracks and gets nothing.

After a court hearing.

a. The court may want a report on her mental state and her fitness to plead that may delay the trial. that might be done in prison or in hospital.

b. The court may hear the case and sentence her normally....where she might again see a psychiatrist at her prison.

c. UK courts have the ability to send someone to a psychiatric hospital, either as their sentence, leaving the discharge entirely in the hands of her doctors, or with the intention of her receiving whatever help she needs before transfer back to prison. Once again, she'd be going to either a medium or high secure hospital.

2. Once she's in hospital, is she there because she's a risk to herself, or because she's undergoing an assessment to see if she's a risk to others?

Different things will happen depending on which of these is the case.

If she's there because someone in the police or court system thinks she's an immediate risk of suicide, then the team will treat whatever might need treating. They'll listen to her, probably offer some cognitive behavioural therapy to help her come to terms with what's happened and try to treat her PTSD or depression if she has them. Medication may be a part of that, but she won't be allowed to choose to remain medicated, she'll be offered medication if the doctors think she needs it, or possibly made to have it if she's on a section 3 and they think she needs it but won't take it.
If she's in hospital because she's a risk to herself, or unfit to plead, then she'll probably stay there until the doctors think she's ready to be handed back to the courts, then they'll hold the trial.

If this is a hospital admission to assess if she's a risk to others then she'll almost certainly have already been to court and the court will have decided that she needs treatment rather than punishment and detained her to hospital. The team treating her will have the task of treating whatever is wrong and also making a decision on if or when she will be discharged from her section and allowed home. They'll discharge her home with the permission of the home secretary (probably) when they feel she's ready and no risk.

If the court decides that the appropriate sentance is prison, but she also needs help for her mental state then she'll recieve a prison sentence and be transferred to hospital for treatment (probably straight from the court). Once the doctors tell the court they have finished, she goes back to prison to complete her sentence.

3. Treatment.

In the very short term, if the girl is VERY distressed she may get short term sedation with something like diazepam. Short term means only a couple of days probably until she settles enough to talk to. Sleeping tablets are a real possibility in the short term too.

If she's experiencing either depression or PTSD then the most likely medication would be an antidepressant, such as prozac.

The real treatment would be cognitive behavioural therapy but done in a slow and sympathetic way to allow her plenty of time to talk about what happened. The idea would be to allow her to question any thoughts she had that she was stuck with, and help her look at them from another point of view. If she was experiencing lots of nightmares and couldn't talk about what had happened then EMDR (eye movement desensitisation) can be pretty helpful.

A hospital ought to have access to all of these. A prison or remand centre would probably have none and medication would be all she'd get.


Hope this helps.

Craig
 

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I am not sure what you mean about choosing to medicate because she doesn't care anymore. Medications do very specific things as part fo a treatment plan. People take them because they care about getting better.
 

YAwriter72

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I am not sure what you mean about choosing to medicate because she doesn't care anymore. Medications do very specific things as part fo a treatment plan. People take them because they care about getting better.


Thats just it. She really doesn't care. She wanted to die and ended up in the facility, so taking meds to get better is not something she wants or chooses. Obviously, as she starts to deal with everything, she makes the choice herself, but at the beginning, she just doesn't want to exist.
 

YAwriter72

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Ummm a little clarification, I may not have portrayed this accurately. She was taken hostage along with several of her friends in the school library during an Honors meeting. The killer is a deranged psychotic man who picked her, shot several of her classmates in front of her, then put a gun in her hand and told her she had to kill the last two people or he would kill her. He made her do it purely for kicks.
 

Wiskel

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THANK YOU! That is a tremendous help and I think, by reading what you wrote, I can work around my plot now. I'll have to make some adjustments to account for some of it, but it could all work still! Thanks again, I appreciate that!


No problem.

I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist and worked for a short time in a maximum secure hospital for adults when I was a junior doctor.

Feel free to send me a message if I can be any help.

Craig
 

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Thats just it. She really doesn't care. She wanted to die and ended up in the facility, so taking meds to get better is not something she wants or chooses. Obviously, as she starts to deal with everything, she makes the choice herself, but at the beginning, she just doesn't want to exist.

So did you mean she chooses *not* to take meds because she doesn't care; or she chooses to take any meds she is given without learning about them because she doesn't care. Choosing to take meds is not, in itself, at all apathetic--you have to deliberately consent to the treatment plan and take the pills.
 

Wiskel

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She was taken hostage along with several of her friends in the school library during an Honors meeting. The killer is a deranged psychotic man who picked her, shot several of her classmates in front of her, then put a gun in her hand and told her she had to kill the last two people or he would kill her. He made her do it purely for kicks.


Then she might not go to a secure unit. I can't imagine the police wanting to charge her at all, although they'd interview her. I certainly can't see any reasonable jury wanting to find her guilty....... although you do have your potential for drama if people aren't sympathetic and she does get charged and goes to court.

This gives you the option of the police not pressing charges and sending her home...and you could admit her to any hospital you liked.

In the UK, the systems to protect this girl are:

1. The police might choose not to recomend prosecution
2. The Criminal prosecution service might decide not to prosecute
3. The judge might dismiss all charges
4. The jury get final say if it goes to trial and the judge doesn't direct them to any particular verdict.


Craig
 

YAwriter72

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So did you mean she chooses *not* to take meds because she doesn't care; or she chooses to take any meds she is given without learning about them because she doesn't care. Choosing to take meds is not, in itself, at all apathetic--you have to deliberately consent to the treatment plan and take the pills.

I'm thinking, given that she is a minor and her parents signed the paperwork, they would have given their consent to treat. I know there are circumstance where a patient has no say in their immediate treatment and then there are states that mandate a patient can say no to meds. I have a few emails in to a couple of residential facilities in my state to ask specific questions.

She takes them because they are there and because someone gives them too her and she knows they make her not think for a time. (I guess technically that is choosing to take them, though she doesn't care what they are)
 

JulieHowe

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Ummm a little clarification, I may not have portrayed this accurately. She was taken hostage along with several of her friends in the school library during an Honors meeting. The killer is a deranged psychotic man who picked her, shot several of her classmates in front of her, then put a gun in her hand and told her she had to kill the last two people or he would kill her. He made her do it purely for kicks.

That would change your scenario and she likely wouldn't be charged criminally, especially if there were witnesses/other evidence to back up her story.

Still, I believe that a person who has just attempted suicide would be held in a locked hospital ward and not in a residential mental health facility where the patients aren't being held against their will.
 

YAwriter72

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Still, I believe that a person who has just attempted suicide would be held in a locked hospital ward and not in a residential mental health facility where the patients aren't being held against their will.


Actually that works perfectly I think and fits. The story starts a couple months after the incident, so she could have been in a hospital ward and then transferred to a residential facility for on going treatment in that timeframe.
 

Wiskel

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Still, I believe that a person who has just attempted suicide would be held in a locked hospital ward and not in a residential mental health facility where the patients aren't being held against their will.

There are very few locked adolescent units in the uk.

The guiding principle is to do the least restrictive thing possible. If you can make someone safe on a unit that isn't locked, through nursing care perhaps, then you don't put them in a locked unit in the uk.

If you can make them safe at home and provide the appropriate treatment then you don't even admit them to hospital.
 

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I just skimmed a lot in the post, so this may have been said, but she'd have to have one of certain conditions to be prescribed meds that 'don't make her think.' And of course that's considered a sad side effect of powerful antipsychotics, usually. It's not like people are pumped full of meds to make them not think intentionally ;)

Sedatives/barbituates might make someone too drowsy/loopy to think, too. It depends on what you mean. But watch the diagnosis is my point :)
 

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Still, I believe that a person who has just attempted suicide would be held in a locked hospital ward and not in a residential mental health facility where the patients aren't being held against their will.

Not true. (but we may have different definitions)

Someone who has attempted suicide and is then involuntarily committed may still got to a residential facility - they would just have greater restrictions, have a more secure room placement and greater observation.

One of the things that patients in such places are told is "we can't make you do anything" so if a person doesn't go to counseling, treatments and such, she's not forced to attend them. However, that also delays her treatment/ability to get better. After all, only the person broken can fix the person broken.

I'm not sure what meds she would be given to 'not think' anymore - as most of those types of meds (here I'm thinking of the favorite slang "thorazine shuffle") are very heavily controlled and prescribed for definite reasons - not just to help the girl not 'think' anymore. She may have anxiety, panic attacks and even problems in a secure setting - but knowing a gal who took anti-anxiety medications while in a mental health facility - I still found her very sharp, intelligent and reasoning.

As for the prosecution for homocide - that would be an interesting philosophical discussion regarding morality and the inherent antagonism between 'self defense', 'justifiable homocide' and 'principle to homocide'.

((won't even go in the inanities of Vulcan logic on that situation))

However, prosecution aside, I am sure just the tide of public opinion alone would be enough to finish breaking what was already cracked for her.

Rabe...
 

YAwriter72

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I just skimmed a lot in the post, so this may have been said, but she'd have to have one of certain conditions to be prescribed meds that 'don't make her think.' And of course that's considered a sad side effect of powerful antipsychotics, usually. It's not like people are pumped full of meds to make them not think intentionally ;)

Sedatives/barbituates might make someone too drowsy/loopy to think, too. It depends on what you mean. But watch the diagnosis is my point :)


Thanks! I liken it to when dh's cousin was killed in a car accident and his aunt was sort of "out of it" for about a year. She existed, but really (And she said it also) it was way dreamlike and foggy. She took valium and sleeping pills and other meds just to make it through each day. (She's an ER nurse too)

So maybe not so much take away MC's ability to think, but to make it easier for her not to have to think. She can retreat into her own head and everyone takes care of her basic needs. I see her as having checked out mentally. Its wahts going on in her head that makes up a good portion of the story!
 

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People on psych wards take meds all the time "just because they're put in front of them." It takes a lot of presence to question what you're taking, and what it's for. If you character is looking for what's easiest, that's often to do what the powers that be, the docs, think you should be doing.
BT