can you think of an argument for the reality of tensed (past, present, future) time while avoiding a circular argument?
AMC
AMC
What an interesting question!can you think of an argument for the reality of tensed (past, present, future) time while avoiding a circular argument?
If we take reality to be objective then we'll need a what, where and when to describe any piece of it. Let's say that objective reality is whatever we can generally get sensorial agreement on. Time then becomes a property of objective reality -- part of what we describe 'real' to be. 'I see a cat on the bureau now' 'Yes, I do too'
We're lucky that when we conduct physical experiments, people can measure the flow of time consistently.
I don't think I'm describing the theory of relativity, but a kind of temporal thinking of which relativity is part.yes in fact any such truth statement is dependent on indexicality -- what, where, when, who, whom -- but what you are describing is the theory of relativity, in which case, we know tensed time is contrary to itself -- that is, an event can be both past and present.
In my version, past-tense arises from sequencing and present-tense arises from indexing. Sequencing just requires that our physical records have a consistent physical order. Indexing requires that we have shared access to a source of regular, periodic change (which is what people often call a 'time-source'). Modern time-sources use a very high-frequency atomic change with a regular period -- watching electrons change state in a cesium atom.Doesn't sequence presuppose tense? Doesn't tense presuppose sequence?
Of course, the ideas of 'past' and 'future' are as real as the idea of 'now' since we can debate their meaning right now, this instant.
In my model that's actually not quite correct. Before we index our news-roll we can say 'Bird flies into garden before cat sits on the mat'. We can say 'Latest report on cat: cat positioned on mat'. We can also say 'Prior history of cat:...' So we have a relative past, but we don't have a notion of now; just a notion of latest.All tenses arise together (there is no "present" without a "past" and reverse);
So we have a relative past, but we don't have a notion of now; just a notion of latest.
Until we index our news-roll we don't have moments, just events. The latest event is the last one recorded on our news-roll. Or we can find the latest event related to the cat, say.To what moment do you compare latest? What's the moment of the event closest to?
Indexing comes with sequencing for free. If we index using the numbers 0, 1, 2... etc... (or 0.00, 0.01, 0.02, which is essentially the same) then we get two properties:Must sequencing occur first? If you index an event without sequence what do you have?
Though finally I think the circularity is out of it, we might consider an a-b theory of time distinguishing between logical and ontological language.
can you think of an argument for the reality of tensed (past, present, future) time while avoiding a circular argument?
AMC
Yep. It can get pretty complicated. When we try and sort out time in our minds, we sometimes just sequence it (A before B, but we're not sure specifically when), sometimes we do it by epoch (between one big reference event and another), and sometimes we do it on against a clock or calendar. None of those necessarily match or even compare, so how we talk about time often depends on how we remember the history. I suspect too that short-term and long-term memory might calibrate and reference history differently -- but I don't have any good links.It is odd that this discussion hasn't mentioned the pluperfect, ie the assumption (in some language systems) that the past has a complete past.
Yes. Even the sequencing is unreliable. Eyewitnesses to disasters have been known to get the order of events entirely wrong when their testimonies are checked against video footage. They even invent things that didn't occur to help explain why it occurred or how they felt about it at the time.time and chronology are things that the human brain has a lot of problems representing to itself or anyone else...apparently because events are filed by intensity (in the brain) not by date. In fact there seems to be no chronological control built into the human memory system at all.
Yes, and I'm not always sure how to represent truth correctly in temporal statements. I feel like adding 'As I recall' to a lot of statements where I know that my recollection is liable to be largely invention, but I also know that my recollection can be influenced by when I'm asked and who's asking. 'As I can recall for you at the moment' might correctly catch the modality and temporality of memory, but who'd believe a statement preceded by such qualification? And then when people are listening for entertainment and not just fact, they expect you to tell the story differently -- including things you couldn't possibly have experienced or known at the time. Yet we typically twist tenses and viewpoints to make those events fit.And of course, there are languages with "literary" or "narrative" pasts and tenses (French and Navaho). So the tense does a lot more than just put time into segments.
Yes, and I'm not always sure how to represent truth correctly in temporal statements.
Sure and I think that's slightly broader than AMC's original question, but it's still very interesting, and relates anyway -- our time-sense is inconsistent, and doesn't even seem to cohere. And it can't help that we sometimes load our tenses with info about our intention, reactions and decisions. And is that an accident? I suspect not. Maybe those things are important in how we recall time.I was looking at how linguistics describes narratives, ie what is linguistically peculair to narrative language.
I don't know much about the literary forms of tense -- how they're used or why they might have occurred. Could you expand?
I like the Borges argument: The future is in the imagination, the past is in memory, there is only one possible moment, and it is the present.