Ukranian/Arabic/Israeli names

Kurtz · Jun 17, 2009

Right, this is going to be quite the question, but its in enough parts that I'm sure I can get an answer for at least part of it.

My story is set in Syria, but also crammed to bursting with Israelis, Turks, Armenians, Georgians, a brace of Persians and a hella lot of Ukranians. Now, I need to know how to name all these guys without sounding like an idiot. If you've read Fathers and Sons by Ivan Turgenev you'll have an idea of what I want to get.

1. Ukranian names

As far as I can gather, these are very similar to Russian names in their structure, it goes 1. Given name 2. Patronymic 3. Surname.

So would, for example, Dimitryi Kalashovich Makarov be valid? I understand the silliness of the patronymic and the surname, but I'm just reeling off things from the top of my head.

If our friend Dimitryi is being referred to by a friend or close associate he can be called simply Dimitryi.
If the one adressing him is an inferior then the more formal means of address is used, which would be Dimitryi Kalashovich
If he is a general or someone very, very important he would be referred to as, for example, General Makarov
If a very close friend or relative is addressing him he can be just Kalashych.

Dimitryi Kalashovich's hypothetical sisters name would be Sophia Kalasheva Makarovna, correct?

2. Arabic Names

Even more fun!

Lets have another hypothetical character. His name is composed of a personal name, a chain of patronymics, possibly a laqab (description of the person) and a geographical marker.

So our character would be Basim (personal name) ibn Muhammad (patronym) ibn Khaldun (patronym again) Ar-Rashid (laqab) Al Filasteeni (in this case, he comes from Palestine)

I'm quite fuzzy with this, it seems they obey a less strict system of naming than the Ukranians, so theres a little more leeway. I'm also confused in the different ways of addressing them depending on rank. Is there a particular way of addressing a superior?

3. Israeli names

This scares me a lot. It seems to be a lot more coloured by other languages, and there again seems to be a ton of leeway. I understand that patronymics seem to take the place of western surnames, such as Ben Gurion (if recall it means 'son of the lion' or something.

How do you address your superior? How do you address your closest friend?

I guess I'll find the hebrew names easier because I can just flick through the bible until I find a badass name.

I know a lot of these questions appear banal and unimportant, that may never even be used in my story at all, but if I have them in my head the world I'm creating is going to seem realler and more deeply coloured.

raburrell · Jun 17, 2009

I can only help you with the Ukrainian... I think you formed the patronymics wrong. (Although concede *I* might be)
Kalashovych, for the male
Kalashivna, for the sister

That said, many Ukrainians just use the Russian forms of patronymics nowadays, I'm told... Kalashovich, Kalashovna.

Close friends or relatives would probably use a diminutive, rather than a last name. And that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

Kurtz · Jun 17, 2009

raburrell said:
I can only help you with the Ukrainian... I think you formed the patronymics wrong. (Although concede *I* might be)
Kalashovych, for the male
Kalashivna, for the sister

That said, many Ukrainians just use the Russian forms of patronymics nowadays, I'm told... Kalashovich, Kalashovna.

Close friends or relatives would probably use a diminutive, rather than a last name. And that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

That's good, I actually really like Kalashivna, because it sounds like Kalashnikov and shiv, I don't think you can have a more dangerous sounding name than that.

Sarpedon · Jun 17, 2009

I was under the impression that names like 'ben gurion' in Israel were attempts at reviving 'traditional' hebrew name forms rather than being a 'true' patronymic. David Ben-Gurion changed his name to that, he was born David Gron, which is a Polish name. So an Israeli might have a European sounding name or one of these Hebrew revival names. For example, the prime minister, Netanyahu, has one of the latter: it was apparently his father's pen name. The foreign minister, Lieberman, has a German-derived name, though he himself was born in Moldova. It seems that the early generation of Israelis and their descendents tend to favor the revival names, while later immigrants are more likely to retain their european-derived names.

ETA: Also, is 'Kalash' a Ukrainian name? That's what Dimitri's father's name would have had to be. The closest I've ever seen to that is 'kailash' which is apparently a hindu name. There's also Kalashnikov, but whether that is derived from a given name is unknown to me. And you don't add the feminine suffix to the surname. That is only applied to the patronymic. It is also my impression that close friends will use the first name or nickname, acquaintances and associates would use the first name and patronymic, while others would use his last name and title. I'm willing to bet there is a common nickname for 'Dimitry' but I don't know what it is. ETA ETA: Found it, yay wikipaedia!

Short forms of the name from the 13th-14th centuries are: Mitya, Mityay, Mit'ka or Miten'ka (Ми́тя, Митя́й, Ми́тька, or Ми́тенька); from the 20th century (originated from the Church Slavic form) are: Dima, Dimka, Dimochka, Dimulya etc.

ETA: And I have little to add to the bit about arabic names, because I know so little about it, except to observe two things: I've never heard of an arabic person using a country (like Palestine) in his name. Usually its much more specific, as the idea of the nation-state has come late to Arabia. Also, the arabic ibn is cognate with the hebrew ben.

Kitty Pryde · Jun 17, 2009

Israeli names are all I know about. Most (modern) Israeli folks I know DON'T have biblical names, though of course some do. There are loads of interesting Israeli names. Also lots of Israeli folks have regular old one word last names. Some first names of Israelis I know: Ayal, Rowee, Atzman (Atzi for short), Asaf, Tal (those are all boy names). Uhh, girl names: Aviva, Shira, i dunno. I know girls named Tovah (good) and Simcha (joy), but that might be more of an American Jewish thing rather than an Israeli thing.

If you look at current names of Israeli adults, like elected officials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Knesset_members ), less than half are Biblical names like Yohanan or Reuven.

Kurtz said:
3. Israeli names

This scares me a lot. It seems to be a lot more coloured by other languages, and there again seems to be a ton of leeway. I understand that patronymics seem to take the place of western surnames, such as Ben Gurion (if recall it means 'son of the lion' or something.

How do you address your superior? How do you address your closest friend?

I guess I'll find the hebrew names easier because I can just flick through the bible until I find a badass name.

I know a lot of these questions appear banal and unimportant, that may never even be used in my story at all, but if I have them in my head the world I'm creating is going to seem realler and more deeply coloured.

melaniehoo · Jun 17, 2009

I have several Palestinian friends, and while I don't know the full names like what you're talking about, I can at least help with first names.

Male: Yousef

Female: Maha, Amani

Kurtz · Jun 17, 2009

Sarpedon said:
I was under the impression that names like 'ben gurion' in Israel were attempts at reviving 'traditional' hebrew name forms rather than being a 'true' patronymic. David Ben-Gurion changed his name to that, he was born David Gron, which is a Polish name. So an Israeli might have a European sounding name or one of these Hebrew revival names. For example, the prime minister, Netanyahu, has one of the latter: it was apparently his father's pen name. The foreign minister, Lieberman, has a German-derived name, though he himself was born in Moldova. It seems that the early generation of Israelis and their descendents tend to favor the revival names, while later immigrants are more likely to retain their european-derived names.

ETA: Also, is 'Kalash' a Ukrainian name? That's what Dimitri's father's name would have had to be. The closest I've ever seen to that is 'kailash' which is apparently a hindu name. There's also Kalashnikov, but whether that is derived from a given name is unknown to me. And you don't add the feminine suffix to the surname. That is only applied to the patronymic. It is also my impression that close friends will use the first name or nickname, acquaintances and associates would use the first name and patronymic, while others would use his last name and title. I'm willing to bet there is a common nickname for 'Dimitry' but I don't know what it is. ETA ETA: Found it, yay wikipaedia!

I remember reading somewhere that in certain parts of Central Africa the name Kalash has become really quite common, due to the cultural impact of the AK. I have absolutley no idea why it's found its way into the hypothetical Ukrainian name, crossed wire or something, the guy who invented the AK was Russian, and Kalashnikov is a surname anyway. It kind of fits though, I'm not sure if I can justify it, but hell, we have people called Lexus and Ferrari around here.

I think I'm getting the logic of the names more, I just need to start making a cache of Ukrainian names and surnames.

The Israeli names are a little more complex, but I like the potential for the strange merging of the Biblical and the European.

Sarpedon · Jun 17, 2009

Well, Kalash would sound strange to me. Whether it would sound strange to the balance of your readers is unknown to me. For Russian and related names I always mentally expand them: Dimitry, Son of Kalash, of the Clan of Makarov. I remember when I was in Russia all my new Russian friends were envious that I had two names: that my middle name belonged to me and not my father.

Smiling Ted · Jun 17, 2009

Believe it or not, Wikipedia often has articles on national/ethnic naming conventions.

It also has lists of celebrities from different countries.

Between the two, you should be able to find what you need.

errantruth · Jun 17, 2009

Ukrainian Names:

Kurtz said:
As far as I can gather, these are very similar to Russian names in their structure, it goes 1. Given name 2. Patronymic 3. Surname.

So would, for example, Dimitryi Kalashovich Makarov be valid? I understand the silliness of the patronymic and the surname, but I'm just reeling off things from the top of my head.

If our friend Dimitryi is being referred to by a friend or close associate he can be called simply Dimitryi.
If the one adressing him is an inferior then the more formal means of address is used, which would be Dimitryi Kalashovich
If he is a general or someone very, very important he would be referred to as, for example, General Makarov
If a very close friend or relative is addressing him he can be just Kalashych.

Dimitryi Kalashovich's hypothetical sisters name would be Sophia Kalasheva Makarovna, correct?

Names and Nicknames, Basic Address

Dimitri would be called Dima by his good friends, so long as a stranger wasn't present. Dima or Dimochka by his sisters, mom, girlfriend. Homosexuality is a "no-no" in Ukrainian culture, so keep that in mind if your character's gay.

Also, since you mention the other ethnicities out there, a Georgian (from the Republic of Georgia) might also be called Dimitri, but his nickname would be a toss-up between Dito (pronounced Dee-toh) or Dima.

Yes, if he was a general or a president, he'd go much like he would here. Ie President Obama and President Putin. Oh, wait, I mean President Whatsisname.

Sometimes longtime friends speaking at the workplace, particularly those middle-aged or older, will refer to one another using the name and patronymic. It's a way of showing esteem before others.

Patronymic

In terms of the patronymic... Honestly, the example you provided would jar with me as someone with both work and academic history with the region. Because I've never heard of it, and this isn't the most innovative region when it comes to names. Unlike the US, say.

So I would look up FIRST names that are Ukrainian, and then choose my patronymic from those.

Example, if Dimitri's father was called Mykolai, then his name would be Dimitri Mykolaiovich. (And his son, in turn, would be Andriy Dmitriyovich.)

Dima's sister Sofia, in contrast, would go by Sofia Mykolaiovna. Her son, if also named Andriy, would be Andriy [Andriy's father's name]ovich.

Wow, I'm sorry to be so wordy, but there's more.

If the dad's name is Andriy, in Russian the patronymics would start with an "e", so Andreievich/Andreievna, but the Ukrainian would always be an "o," so Andriyovich/Andriyovna. (Ukrainian would be Mykolaiovich/Mykolaiovna but Russian would be Nikolaievich/Nikolaievna)

If the dad's name is Vladimir, because it ends with a consonant (and is soft, not hard), both the Ukrainian and the Russian male and female endings start with an "o" (Vladimirovich, Vladimirovna.)

(Point being, rules are different based on whether they're Ukrainians or Russians. Just mentioning because many think they're "the same.")

Ergo: In Ukrainian: Vladimir Vladimirovich, Dimitri Mykolaiovich, and Dimitri's son would be Dmitri Dimitriyovich
(Whereas in Russian, it's Vladimir Vladimirovich, Dimitri Nikolaevich, and Dmitri's son would be Dimitri Dimitrievich)

Whew! Almost done, now to Surnames.

Look up last names to find one that's not too uncommon. This isn't a very inventive region when it comes to names. Hell, it's one of our nice ole xenophobic places where your last name says a lot about where you're from, what ethnicity your ancestors were, etc. In such places you don't find that much variety in surnames.

I can discuss Russian last names ad nauseum, but I'm not sure on Ukrainian names. My sense is that there are some traditional names that don't change. For instance, I notice a "Valentina Shevchenko." That "ko" ending is pretty typical for Ukrainian names, or very common. And the ending's neither masculine nor feminine; it's neuter.

Shevchenko, btw, is a very famous Ukrainian last name. Their bard was a Taras Shevchenko.

Another example while Googling was Yulia Tymoshenko, their PM. (Is she still?) Again, another example of a "-ko" last name that bares no gender markings.

I would look up Ukrainian last names and if you want resonance with some sense of who the character is, you can generally find their meanings online. Alternatively, I'm happy to hear any names you want to throw my way and give my two cents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ukrainian_surnames
This site has Ukrainian surnames.

Kurtz said:

3. Israeli names

I understand that patronymics seem to take the place of western surnames, such as Ben Gurion (if recall it means 'son of the lion' or something.

How do you address your superior? How do you address your closest friend?

I guess I'll find the hebrew names easier because I can just flick through the bible until I find a badass name.

Click to expand...

Just want to echo--Israelis don't often use Biblical names. And also, never heard of an Israeli using a patronymic. Maybe within their own communities some immigrants from this (Ukrainian/Russian) region do, but... And lastly, Israel is a VERY, VERY casual place. Israelis are UBER casual.

Benjamin Netanyahu goes by Bibi. (Pronounced Bee-Bee)

They're like the opposite of Ukrainians, say. ;-)

Sorry for my endless answer. I hope I'm not too impossible to decipher. It's been a long day.

~ R

Kurtz · Jun 18, 2009

errantruth, don't apologise for length that was incredibly useful.

From what I've read the word Kozak is the Ukranian way of spelling cossack. A word that brings with it the connotations I am after.

I'm going to try drafting up some names, I've got an 8 hour train journey coming up and I may as well do something constructive during it.

errantruth · Jun 18, 2009

Hey Kurtz,

I just glanced at this page: http://genforum.genealogy.com/kozak/ and it seems you're good to go with Kozak as a last name for someone from Ukraine. Some middle/western Slavs carry the name too, but enough Ukrainian roots for it to work absolutely plausibly.

Oh, and I notice in my War and Peace treatise above (see how in tune I am w the region? can't even write shorts!) that I said that Vladimir ends with a soft consonant--it's a hard one. Ergo the "o" in Russian. Soft takes an "e" in Russian. But although I flipped the hard/soft description, the name was spelt properly. Vladimirovich in both Ukrainian and Russian. And Vladimirovna.

Again, happy to give feedback to any name you shoot over, or anything else that requires a quick look at Ukrainian online. Mind you, a quick look--my Russian is better

and Ukrainian a slower slog.

Enjoy your train trip!!! I have a flight this morning and it may be my sanest coupla hours in the next few days. Laptop's staying home and I have only my wee writing pad between me and those emotional and physical cramps that take over when I'm gone from writing too long.

And it's an absolute pleasure. Good luck!!! I'm sure it'll be great. -- And I've lived in Georgia and stayed in Armenia for three weeks (during the recent war) and have certain connections with Turkey, so glad to have a shot at any other stuff that comes up.

~ R

Norton · Jun 18, 2009

Dimitryi Kalashovich??
What kind of name is that? Kalash?))))I've never heard such name before. Are you sure it's Ukranian name?
Plus there's no name like Dimitryi...It's Dmitryi...no "i" after "D"
Makarov is not ukranian last name. Its russian.
Almost all ukranian last names ends with "ko" or "o"

errantruth · Jun 18, 2009

Yeah, the "i" is something we say rather than spell because having a Dm together is rather unusual in English. Kinda like how we say "Tiblisi" even though the Georgian capital is actually spelt Tbilisi.

Also there's variations on how people transliterate names like Dmitri/Dmitry/Dmitryi/Dmitriy or Andrei/Andriy -- after all, these are all originally written in Cyrillic. As opposed to the Polish version of Andrei (more common Russian transliteration)/Andriy (more common Ukrainian transliteration), which is Andrzej--written in the same alphabet we (English speakers) use...with a few differences.

errantruth · Jun 18, 2009

Oh, Kurtz, if you need any casual Georgian language throw-outs (ie greetings) for the book, just call my name

~ R
(suddenly feels like Rumpelstiltskin)

dmytryp · Jun 18, 2009

Kalash is not a name. So, the patrimonial wouldn't be like that. I doubt you'd need patrimonial today at all. They are used in formal situation or when a younger person adresses an older person he respects.
I agree that Makarov isn't Ukranian, but Russian. If you want it to be Ukranian, then go with Makarenko.
Common names are similar to Russian. There are some slight pronounciation differences, but I doubt you need to go there. For example -- in Russian it's Andrey, but in Ukranian it'd be Andriy.
Names you can use
Men:
Anton (Toshka to his friends), Vladimir (Volodia in short to his friends), Sergey (Serega), Konstantin (Kostia), Victor (Vitia), Alexander (Sasha. It's Alexandra for a female), Peter (Petka).
Women:
Anastasia (Nastia), Ira (Irka), Olia (Olka), Marina, Olesia, Angela, Yulia

Israeli names
Men
Sagi, Amir, Yuval (this one can be a woman, too), Tal (both for men and women), Eitan, Yigal, Yossi (this is short for Yosef), Guy, Israel

Women
Michal, Eden, Bella, Mazal, Sharon, Edna, Tamar

People are usually very informal. They adress their superiors by first name. Sometimes, people adress others by surname only (usually between acquaintaces -- this is a bit strange for me). On very very rare occasions you'd have Mr or Ms being used.

Arabic names
I am somewhat lower here (you can open any article in the news on Israeli/Palestinian issue and have the names).
Men:
Yusuf, Ahmed, Mahmoud, Salah
Women:
Laila, Hanan

daehedr · Jun 18, 2009

here are some Arabic names from the Saudi/UAE/Libyan areas:

Male:
Mohammed (obviously)Abdulaziz, Abdullah, Salah, Reda, Faisal
Yasser/Yasir/Yaser, Adel, Abdulrahman, Ahmed, Rami, Tariq, Salaheddin

Last Names: lots of A names: Algabsani, Algarni, Alshaikh, Almater, Almutairi, Alhodif, Aldekhail, Abdukhi, Albar, Damman, Nour, Garwan, Eljaat (Libyan), Zilai, Buhamed, many of the Saudi names with al start out Al-Gabsani.

Libyan last names: Elatrash, Eljaat, Elgasi, Esheba and a lot of these start El-Trash, El-Jaat.
Women's last names as above but married women keep their own name and do not go by Mrs.
Women's names: Ohood, Fatimah, Lamia, Rabab, Haneen, Roaa, Rola, Khlood, Lina, Nahed, Maha, Mashahed, Rola, Shada, Soha, Leena, Aalaa, Aliyah, Majda

These are pulled from a diverse group of students that I have worked with over the years.

IceCreamEmpress · Jun 18, 2009

One good way to generate authentic national names is to go to the websites of those nations' parliaments and look at the names of the representatives.

Izunya · Jun 18, 2009

dmytryp said:
Men:
Anton (Toshka to his friends), Vladimir (Volodia in short to his friends), Sergey (Serega), Konstantin (Kostia), Victor (Vitia), Alexander (Sasha. It's Alexandra for a female), Peter (Petka).

My grandfather spelled his name Volodymyr rather than Vladimir. I have no idea whether that reflects an actual pronunciation difference or the way the clerk wrote it down when he came into the country.

Other male names in the Ukrainian half of my family: Orest, Lubomyr, Myketa. They were all Western Ukrainian, if it makes a difference.

Women:
Anastasia (Nastia), Ira (Irka), Olia (Olka), Marina, Olesia, Angela, Yulia

From my family: Neonila, Theophila, Daria.

Izunya

Sarpedon · Jun 18, 2009

the site behindthename.com is a good resource for spelling differences between related cultures. For example, I saw that the Ukrainian form of Dimitry is actually Dmytro.

dmytryp · Jun 18, 2009

Izunya said:
My grandfather spelled his name Volodymyr rather than Vladimir. I have no idea whether that reflects an actual pronunciation difference or the way the clerk wrote it down when he came into the country.

Volodimir has two possibilities -- either it is an older version of the name (based on the other names you gave, I'd go with this) or it is the difference of Ukranian and more Russian pronounciation.

Izunya said:
Other male names in the Ukrainian half of my family: Orest, Lubomyr, Myketa. They were all Western Ukrainian, if it makes a difference.

From my family: Neonila, Theophila, Daria.

Izunya

Those are all pretty archaic names. Things might have changed since I came fro Ukrain (that was almost twenty years ago), but during the USSR years most of the names used drifted to a more Russian kind. There is also the possibility that those names would be more in use in Western Ukrain that was always more nationalistic and had deep negative feelings towards Russia

dmytryp · Jun 18, 2009

Sarpedon said:
the site behindthename.com is a good resource for spelling differences between related cultures. For example, I saw that the Ukrainian form of Dimitry is actually Dmytro.

Yep, though it also depends in which parts of Ukraine you are. I was born in the second largest city of Ukraine which is also relatively close to the Russian border, and almost everybody spoke Russian (and the names tended to be Russian). Things changed, of course, after the breakdown of USSR, but I doubt you really need to go that deep for a Western audience.

Izunya · Jun 18, 2009

dmytryp said:
Those are all pretty archaic names. Things might have changed since I came fro Ukrain (that was almost twenty years ago), but during the USSR years most of the names used drifted to a more Russian kind. There is also the possibility that those names would be more in use in Western Ukrain that was always more nationalistic and had deep negative feelings towards Russia

My grandfather Volodymyr fled the Ukraine during World War II, along with his family, because he was convinced that he would be sent to Siberia for being a Uniate priest. (Judging from what little I know of the time, he was probably right.) Theophila was my great grandmother. My father (Orest) was born in Germany right after the war ended. So I suspect the names are just archaic.

Izunya

errantruth · Jun 19, 2009

Yeah, Volodymyr (and similar spellings) are Ukrainian. Vladimir is Russian.

Oh, and I'm thinking that a) it's a good idea to do as was suggested above and look at the names of politicians for ideas, but also pop groups and athletes--who tend to be younger. Look for the age cohort of your MC...

~ R

Ukranian/Arabic/Israeli names

Kurtz

Fix up, look sharp.

raburrell

Treguna Makoidees Trecorum SadisDee

Kurtz

Fix up, look sharp.

Sarpedon

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

melaniehoo

And thus we begin the edits

Kurtz

Fix up, look sharp.

Sarpedon

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

errantruth

Kurtz

Fix up, look sharp.

errantruth

Norton

Writer

errantruth

errantruth

dmytryp

daehedr

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

Izunya

Sarpedon

dmytryp

dmytryp

Izunya

errantruth