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Matera the Mad
06-16-2009, 08:31 AM
1. You have no idea where you're going until you get there, and that's probably a Good Thing.

2. Sticking to an outline is like making cookies without licking the spoon.

3. Outlines are boring and they suck. Suckitude discourages writing.

4. You don't have time for frivolous things like outlines. Ur kitteh needz play naow.

5. Poets don't outline.

6. You will probably forget where you put the outline anyway.

BenPanced
06-16-2009, 08:35 AM
There's nothing on TV except that episode of "The Fairly OddParents" you've seen only 17 times already.
It's not 12:00 ANYWHERE right now, so there goes drinking.
The Girl Scouts won't be around for another eight months.
Your eyes are starting to cross from trying to read over your Sims character's shoulder.
OMFG, you're starting to understand Simlish, speaking of "The Sims"...
You can check your MyLiveFace page only so many times before you start arguments for the sake of starting them.

aadams73
06-16-2009, 12:31 PM
1. How the heck do you know what to put in the outline if you don't write it first?

No one wants a wrong outline. I'm just sayin'...

thethinker42
06-16-2009, 12:40 PM
1. You're scarletpeaches and too damned stubborn to do it any other way.
2. You're tt42 and, although you refuse to admit it, are gradually turning to the Dark Side and becoming like scarletpeaches.
3. If you don't have an outline, you don't have to worry about coloring outside the lines.
4. Chewbacca is from Endor.
5. I like cookies.
6. Because if you outline the story before you write it, the terrorists win.

KTC
06-16-2009, 01:17 PM
1. I'm too precious.
2. I'm too important.
3. I'm too instrumental.
4. I'm too intelligent.
5. I'm too distinguished.
6. I'm two.

NeuroFizz
06-16-2009, 04:26 PM
1. Writing organically is cool and artsy. Just look at that name--organic. Outlining is not cool and mechanical, and with a name lacking even a shred of coolitude. And, of course, the most important thing about being a writer is to be seen as cool. Much more important than finishing a project, submitting it, and getting it published.

2. If one finds a method of writing that works, the next most important thing to do is to discount other methods as pure crap, as lacking in originality, and as the best way to stifle creativity. And as unworthy of all sorts of the kinds of similies and metaphors only really cool writers use (and outliners can't because of their spayed/neutered originality [see?]).

3. If a writer so much as writes a sentence summary of a scene that is about to be written, he/she is an uncool outliner, which is equivalent to being the devil's spawn or the devil's concubine. And because I know outlining is so sucky, I get to define it and decide who is an outliner and who isn't.

4. Outlining is an artistic sell-out and people who do it don't have the first clue about what Art really is all about.

5. Of course--I can pick up any book from the bookstore shelves and immediately tell if its author outlined by its sheer suckitude.

6. I can easily Google and find several successful authors who do it exactly my way, which is absolute proof that anything I say swings more weight than anything you say, and absolute proof that I will be a successful author and you won't.

7. Any method of writing other than mine makes me puke and I had enough of that literary bulimia when it was forced upon me by my high school English teacher (head concubine of the devil).

8. There is a direct correlation between the right-brain/left-brain thing, and outining and writing organically, because there are just two options in both. How else could such a tight fit between the two be explained?

9. My way is right. Your way is wrong.

10. Because of #9, this discussion is over. Mods, close the thread.





NOTE: In case anyone is wondering, on the continuum with detailed outlining on one side and writing with absolutely no pre-planning on the other, I fall quite far to the latter side, so I'm not defending something I regularly do here. Rather, I'm having some fun with actual attitudes expressed here at AW on this issue (over the years).

KTC
06-16-2009, 04:28 PM
1. Writing organically is cool and artsy. Outlining is not cool and mechanical. And, of course, the most important thing about being a writer is to be seen as cool. Much more important than finishing a project, submitting it, and getting it published.



I know you are being humorous and serious at the same time...but this comment strikes me as extremely insulting. I see not outlining as my only option. It's the way my brain works. I finish. I submit. I hope to get published. But I don't see my method as artsy fartsy or less sincere. I'm certainly not cool.

scarletpeaches
06-16-2009, 04:30 PM
1. I'm scarletpeaches and too damn stubborn to do it any other way
2. It stifles creativity otherwise!
3. Most of my plot development comes out in character nuances and/or conversation, which I don't know about until I write it
4. Writing about writing is not writing. I'd rather just get on with the damn novel, instead of endlessly preparing for it
5. Colin Farrell doesn't outline
6. Mmm, Colin.

Elincoln
06-16-2009, 04:40 PM
1.) The action scene bouncing around in your head is there and won't stop till you write it completely out. It doesn't take rain checks in the form of outlines either.

2.) You never know where exactly your piece will 'start' in the timeline and therefore writing an outline will be futile.

3.) It's better just to hash it out and sew the 'scenes' together later than try to plan out everything ahead of time.

4.) All good stories never come out as you planned.

5.) Characters hate outlines. They feel trapped. They hate their destiny laid out before them. They rebel. Never make your Characters rebel. It's not pretty.

6.) There is a five page a day quota that needs filling and outlines are not part of that quota.

NeuroFizz
06-16-2009, 04:44 PM
I know you are being humorous and serious at the same time...but this comment strikes me as extremely insulting. I see not outlining as my only option. It's the way my brain works. I finish. I submit. I hope to get published. But I don't see my method as artsy fartsy or less sincere. I'm certainly not cool.
Re-read the note at the bottom of my post. I assumed the OP was doing this with a humorous twist. I did the same. I'm making fun of idiotic generalizations on this topic. I am not making those generalizations.

This issue is so emotional, and people are so attached to their own personal God on this, the sensitivity gets way out of hand. People approach writing in different ways. Different is not synonymous with bad. If someone thinks their approach makes them more creative and a better writer, more power to them. If that person thinks their approach makes them more creative and a better writer in comparison to other writers, he/she should try to contain the outright arrogance.

Rolling Thunder
06-16-2009, 05:07 PM
Yeah, I know this post was made in a vein of humor but I'm just going to share some of the reasons why I outline.


1. You have no idea where you're going until you get there, and that's probably a Good Thing.

I outline because it allows me to quickly see where I'm going with the story. I write the first chapter and then the ending immediately afterwards. The outline lets me flesh out the story between the two. When the inevitable subplot or inspiration beckons I can go back to my outline and figure out what impact it has on previous chapters and make changes; sometimes to the story, most times to the outline.

2. Sticking to an outline is like making cookies without licking the spoon.

Outlining doesn't mean you adhere to the layout like it's chiseled in stone. Outlining gives the writer a method of checking facts. A good outline doesn't have to be a tight list of: this happens: then this: then this. It's simply a tool for keeping the story moving forward and in context.

3. Outlines are boring and they suck. Suckitude discourages writing.

Outlines can encourage good writing by allowing the writer to catch those plot and sub-plot errors of all sizes. Having a flash of inspiration during a chapter is great, until you write down 3000 words and discover your MC is being mischievous and has played a prank on you by undoing 16,000 words of previous work.

4. You don't have time for frivolous things like outlines. Ur kitteh needz play naow.

I kill kittehs in my stories. With alarming frequency, from what I've been told.


5. Poets don't outline.

Poets usually deal with one subject in a poem, not a dozen subplots where characters grow and the story can veer off at any moment.

6. You will probably forget where you put the outline anyway.

Do not!

...

...

Excuse me. I have to go look for something.

scarletpeaches
06-16-2009, 05:08 PM
Re-read the note at the bottom of my post. I assumed the OP was doing this with a humorous twist. I did the same. I'm making fun of idiotic generalizations on this topic. I am not making those generalizations.

This issue is so emotional, and people are so attached to their own personal God on this, the sensitivity gets way out of hand. People approach writing in different ways. Different is not synonymous with bad. If someone thinks their approach makes them more creative and a better writer, more power to them. If that person thinks their approach makes them more creative and a better writer in comparison to other writers, he/she should try to contain the outright arrogance.

Sidenote: You might be tickled by the thread I just started in OP in which tt42 and I try out each other's methods of writing just for laughs.

NeuroFizz
06-16-2009, 05:18 PM
Six irresistible reasons you need to write your story before you outline it

This title has inspired me. I'm going down the hall now. And I'm going to wipe before I sh!t.

(I don't use emoticons, so this is meant in a totally humorous way)

NOTE added in edit. At least one publisher wants a chapter-by-chapter outline submitted with the full manuscript. This is an example of an outline after writing the story kind of thing for many of us writers.

KTC
06-16-2009, 05:18 PM
Fair enough, Rich. Just felt very real/passing as jest. Like I said...I knew you were kidding. In every thread about this I have always said it's a personal thing...up to each writer to decide---and even case by case with each book they write.

I take my writing very seriously and I value my way is my way...not as the way.

wannawrite
06-16-2009, 05:33 PM
Um...this is just me talking, but, WHY EXACTLY does everyone seem to get so up in arms about this? I've read tons on the subject, lately, and it all seems so silly, somehow. I mean, people are getting offended, people are getting outright pissed, some are all defensive, some are crying in their coffee...blah, blah, blah...

Does it really matter? The point is, it gets from your brain and onto the page. End of story. Some outline. Some don't.

I just don't see the conflict, or what the big deal is.

Now, if outliners were standing on non-outliners lawns, throwing tomatos and rotten fruit at the outliners houses and calling them all sorts of nasty names, (or vice-versa), then, maybe, I would 'get it'. But for now, I just don't. Right now, it's 'no blood, no foul', and who really cares when there is no right or wrong?

Out line. Or don't out line. Just write the story. That's all that really matters, in the end.

Again, just me talkin'.

Bubastes
06-16-2009, 05:49 PM
Um...this is just me talking, but, WHY EXACTLY does everyone seem to get so up in arms about this? I've read tons on the subject, lately, and it all seems so silly, somehow. I mean, people are getting offended, people are getting outright pissed, some are all defensive, some are crying in their coffee...blah, blah, blah...

Does it really matter? The point is, it gets from your brain and onto the page. End of story. Some outline. Some don't.

I just don't see the conflict, or what the big deal is.


I was wondering the same thing. I outline, but I certainly don't think my way is the only way to write. It's simply what works FOR ME.

Vincent
06-16-2009, 05:53 PM
1. You have no idea where you're going until you get there, and that's probably a Good Thing.

- The reader usually doesn't. It might be a good idea if the author does.


5. Poets don't outline.

- Some do. Especially for those 400 page poems.

BenPanced
06-16-2009, 07:01 PM
1) I'm thethinker42 and I don't have to outline how my scarlet peaches are irresistible.

...

Well. My work here is done.

Button
06-16-2009, 07:07 PM
If you outline before or outline after you write a story is a preference. The truth is that we all eventually outline -- if we want to be published. Whether it is in the form of a true outline or a synopsis. We all outline.

Some of us just don't utilize that tool.

But I thought all of this was hilarious. I don't outline in the beginning, but I am starting to use outlines after to help me tighten the plot, or add scenes in order to make sure it works.

I, frankly, don't care how anyone does it, just write the *&%$ already so it can be published and I can read it. *selfishly wanting to be entertained*

Cassiopeia
06-16-2009, 09:45 PM
Um...this is just me talking, but, WHY EXACTLY does everyone seem to get so up in arms about this?


I was wondering the same thing.

Here, let me give you six reasons why this ends up happening every freaking time the topic is brought up.

1. AWers, god bless their souls are passionate writers.
2. They are emotional human beings with things from their daily lives that probably influence how they read and interpret posts.
3. There is a lot that gets lost in the translation of non-verbal communications.
4. Some people feel good about the way they do things and because it works for them, will defend it to the death, through humour or otherwise.
5. Humour, unfortunately is hard to translate in written form. (hats off to our members who do a very good job with it.
6. Boredom. I blame boredom...Oh and Orlando Bloom, OF COURSE.

I, for one, don't really give a rat's ass how people do it, as long as it gets done. The last time I checked, it's what works for you. :)

I am in the process of outlining two different ways.

One story has been completely mapped out. It's on the back burner, though.
The other, is being outlined now that I'm six chapters into a rewrite so I can keep track of who's name is what and who does what and why they do it. It's more notes than an actual outline.

I don't like outlining, but for me it might be one of those necessary evils. Whether it happens chapter by chapter, in advance or at the very end...time will tell.

Greenify13
06-16-2009, 10:09 PM
Here, let me give you six reasons why this ends up happening every freaking time the topic is brought up.

1. AWers, god bless their souls are passionate writers. YES
2. They are emotional human beings with things from their daily lives that probably influence how they read and interpret posts. YES
3. There is a lot that gets lost in the translation of non-verbal communications. A LOT OF THE TIME
4. Some people feel good about the way they do things and because it works for them, will defend it to the death, through humour or otherwise. YES
5. Humour, unfortunately is hard to translate in written form. (hats off to our members who do a very good job with it. Very hard!
6. Boredom. I blame boredom...Oh and Orlando Bloom, OF COURSE. OF COURSE!

I, for one, don't really give a rat's ass how people do it, as long as it gets done. The last time I checked, it's what works for you. :)

I am in the process of outlining two different ways.

One story has been completely mapped out. It's on the back burner, though.
The other, is being outlined now that I'm six chapters into a rewrite so I can keep track of who's name is what and who does what and why they do it. It's more notes than an actual outline.

I don't like outlining, but for me it might be one of those necessary evils. Whether it happens chapter by chapter, in advance or at the very end...time will tell.
I don't outline, but I write very many stories at one time and then poetry on top of that. If I outlined I feel like I will have to stick with that one story, illogical I know...but still. Heck I don't even seperate the writing into chapters, it's one huge story until I get to a certain word-count or something and then I split the chapters where it seems appropriate.
Oh and I love you because....time will tell! :D

Cassiopeia
06-16-2009, 10:20 PM
I don't outline, but I write very many stories at one time and then poetry on top of that. If I outlined I feel like I will have to stick with that one story, illogical I know...but still. Heck I don't even seperate the writing into chapters, it's one huge story until I get to a certain word-count or something and then I split the chapters where it seems appropriate.
Oh and I love you because....time will tell! :DThe story I am rewriting I never had an outline for. I am finding repetition. But then, I wrote it over 13 years when I had time to work on it. That and you know, being OLD does that to a person. :D

All we need is love! :)

JoNightshade
06-16-2009, 10:35 PM
I would just like to point out that Chewbacca is actually from Kashyyyk.

/nerdcompulsion

Cassiopeia
06-16-2009, 10:37 PM
I would just like to point out that Chewbacca is actually from Kashyyyk.

/nerdcompulsion
Wow.


You are a nerd. :D

*runs for her life*

JoNightshade
06-16-2009, 10:42 PM
You should have seen me in high school. It's astonishing I had any friends at all. ;)

Button
06-17-2009, 01:10 AM
You should have seen me in high school. It's astonishing I had any friends at all. ;)

I was in this catagory in high school. I hung out with the other nerds. Popular kids called us gutter rats, as we hung out outside near the drains, although it was the prettier part of the courtyard.

thethinker42
06-17-2009, 03:00 AM
I would just like to point out that Chewbacca is actually from Kashyyyk.

/nerdcompulsion

Then that proves that OJ is guilty.

Matera the Mad
06-17-2009, 06:24 AM
Um...this is just me talking, but, WHY EXACTLY does everyone seem to get so up in arms about this? I've read tons on the subject, lately, and it all seems so silly, somehow. I mean, people are getting offended, people are getting outright pissed, some are all defensive, some are crying in their coffee...blah, blah, blah...

Does it really matter? The point is, it gets from your brain and onto the page. End of story. Some outline. Some don't.

I just don't see the conflict, or what the big deal is.

Now, if outliners were standing on non-outliners lawns, throwing tomatos and rotten fruit at the outliners houses and calling them all sorts of nasty names, (or vice-versa), then, maybe, I would 'get it'. But for now, I just don't. Right now, it's 'no blood, no foul', and who really cares when there is no right or wrong?

Out line. Or don't out line. Just write the story. That's all that really matters, in the end.

Again, just me talkin'.

Um...because every once in a while someone gets all snooty-didactic about it and thinks everyone should write in the same way. Whichever way.

Me, I like to poke pins in balloons :D

Greenify13
06-17-2009, 06:31 AM
The story I am rewriting I never had an outline for. I am finding repetition. But then, I wrote it over 13 years when I had time to work on it. That and you know, being OLD does that to a person. :D

All we need is love! :)
That must not be cool! But atleast it's fixable, I doubt there's much beyond fixable...or I'm that damned stubborn. Time'll tell in the end. :D And remember you're a writer...age has no factor! :D
Love ya :Hug2:

Cassiopeia
06-17-2009, 07:09 AM
That must not be cool! But atleast it's fixable, I doubt there's much beyond fixable...or I'm that damned stubborn. Time'll tell in the end. :D And remember you're a writer...age has no factor! :D
Love ya :Hug2:Greenify13, do we know each other...LOL. I mean I'm all for the hugs and what not...but you seem somehow to love me and while I'm loveable, I just don't know...LOL :Hug2:

Greenify13
06-17-2009, 07:13 AM
:ROFL: And I just got a reppie from someone saying they love me...:ROFL:

Writers need love and space for their writing....another reason not to have outlines. Lives in real life require so much structure, consistency, planning...why restrict ourselves to this in our passions? :D Or something like that... (((hugs))) for all!

Vincent
06-17-2009, 07:21 AM
Um...because every once in a while someone gets all snooty-didactic about it and thinks everyone should write in the same way. Whichever way.

Me, I like to poke pins in balloons :D
Start a thread about prologues. Go on, I dare you.

Cassiopeia
06-17-2009, 07:22 AM
Start a thread about prologues. Go on, I dare you.
BEEZLE!!!!!!!!!!!


*takes a fly leap and does a cowabunga right in the middle of her old pal*

good to see ya, mate. ;)

scarletpeaches
06-17-2009, 07:23 AM
*is in a huff because Cass never fly-leaps her like that any more*

Fine.

I'm going to bed.

*sniff*

Vincent
06-17-2009, 07:25 AM
BEEZLE!!!!!!!!!!!


*takes a fly leap and does a cowabunga right in the middle of her old pal*

good to see ya, mate. ;)
lol, Hey Cassiopeia.

Cassiopeia
06-17-2009, 07:31 AM
*is in a huff because Cass never fly-leaps her like that any more*

Fine.

I'm going to bed.

*sniff*but but...you always have migraines and say: Not tonight, Kim. *sniffs too* ;)


lol, Hey Cassiopeia.
:D How's the writing?

Vincent
06-17-2009, 07:34 AM
The swine flu has slowed down my writing for the last week or more, but I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

... I mean I'm getting better, not that I'm dying.

Apart from that, yeah, not bad. Still sending them off, still getting the rejections.

Cassiopeia
06-17-2009, 07:40 AM
The swine flu has slowed down my writing for the last week or more, but I'm starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

... I mean I'm getting better, not that I'm dying.

Apart from that, yeah, not bad. Still sending them off, still getting the rejections.OH MY GOSH! you got the swine flu? Why didn't you tell somebody? You know, now that I think of it, you never write home...you never call! *miffed* sheesh.

I'm glad you are getting better...is it really bad?

Vincent
06-17-2009, 07:44 AM
OH MY GOSH! you got the swine flu? Why didn't you tell somebody? You know, now that I think of it, you never write home...you never call! *miffed* sheesh.

I'm glad you are getting better...is it really bad?
Nah, I'm exaggerating a tiny bit. I have something, and there's a growing epidemic of swine flu in my country- in my city, too... but I don't know what I have.

If it's swine flu, it ain't so bad.

Cassiopeia
06-17-2009, 07:48 AM
Nah, I'm exaggerating a tiny bit. I have something, and there's a growing epidemic of swine flu in my country- in my city, too... but I don't know what I have.

If it's swine flu, it ain't so bad.*pinch* don't scare me like that. Hey some of us are in the chatroom..you should come join us and we can quit derailing this thread. :)

cooeedownunder
06-17-2009, 08:30 AM
1 - 6 You can start before your outline is finished.

James D. Macdonald
06-19-2009, 08:50 AM
Now, if outliners were standing on non-outliners lawns, throwing tomatos and rotten fruit at the outliners houses and calling them all sorts of nasty names, (or vice-versa), then, maybe, I would 'get it'.

You mean we aren't? There go my plans for Saturday night!

thethinker42
06-19-2009, 09:27 AM
You mean we aren't? There go my plans for Saturday night!

Didn't you get the memo? The bake sale is Saturday night. We're throwing the rotten food on Tuesday afternoon. Don't you read your e-mails??

Mela
06-19-2009, 09:04 PM
I wrote the first 50 pages of my YA novel without an outline and every time I thought of a new twist I went with it.
But then everything got so clogged in my head, the plot that I was furthering that still wasn't on paper, that I eventually had to stop and write it down and close up loopholes. It's a general outline, though, which still gives me room to create as I think of new twists and turns.
I personally hate writing outlines - for me it slows the momentum. Better to think of the idea and just write the damn thing. I can see where people could get caught up in outlines forever so that the outline becomes more important than the actual draft.
But everyone to his/her own.

Andreya
07-22-2009, 10:42 PM
Great thread!! :)

Damn outlines! :)

I wrote my 1st WIP with one (of course it got befuddled & all) & then wrote the end - & now I'm just too bored to finish the damn thing!!

Why? I know the ending!! /dies/
& all that happens!! sort of

lol - So, maybe sometimes & for some people, uncertainty can work better? ;)