DUNE, Revisited

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MelancholyMan

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I'm almost ashamed to say that I've never read DUNE. I'm 43 and once read gobs of Sci-Fi and fantasy. Most of it was when I was a kid because when college hit a physics program was just too study intensive to leave much time for anything. Then when a job hit I discovered it was even worse. I started writing a few years ago (like, 10) and slowly began to find time to read again. After a while I realized the stuff I was writing fit best in Sci-Fi. That led me... here!

There was a discussion a few weeks ago about books that would or wouldn't get published today. I think it was in an info-dump thread. Dune came up and I thought to myself, "You really need to read that."

Now, there are many things we first experience when we're really not too well equipped to evaluate them beyond "Love it" and "Hate it". I don't know how many books and movies I wish I could watch for the first time again. Dune was a classic I'd never read and I'm now a mature (debatable) and experienced (also debatable) writer even if I'm unpublised (not debatable). Unfortunately, the experience isn't entirely pure. I know the plot from the 80's era movie so keep seeing the faces of the actors. Fortunately, however, the casting of the 80's movie was superb (especially where Baron Harkonnen is concerned) and the directors didn't much follow the book so the damage is not as bad as it might be.

First off, the first few chapters of Dune are mega-info-dump. Tons of names, and lots of detail without a lot of plot.

Secondly, the POV is odd. It is written in the 3rd person Omnicient point of view. You get inner dialogue (in italics, no less) switching from one character to the next from one paragraph to the next with no line breaks. I keep hearing the whispering from the movie. "Dune, desert planet... Never one drop of rain on Arrakis..."

Third, style unusual. Fragmentary phrases abound. Paul walked into the room, turned around, said "Hi."

Fourth, the plot develops quite slowly. There is a lot of talk about Harkonnens and the threat they pose, and the CHOAM company, and the emperor, and all that, without much plot participation, or any real clarification, by or about any of these entities.

However, I do like the book, and more and more as I consume it's pages. It was a bit tough to get in to. I don't mind the 3rdPerson-O but it is non-standard. Sentence fragments a bit jarring and remain so. I don't mind info-dump, as long as the info feeds back into the story later, which it does. And a slow-developing plot is like well-aged wine. But I'm more convinced than ever, for the very reasons that I like the book, that it would never be published today and that is... sad. :cry:
 

Higgins

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First off, the first few chapters of Dune are mega-info-dump. Tons of names, and lots of detail without a lot of plot.

I read Dune at an impressionable Age when it first came out. I found it annoying (as an idle poet idling in graduate school) mostly because of the characters. Princess Irulian seems like the only reasonably idle person among them and she does help with the Info-dumping since apparently she is the only person with the time to have written all about the events that Frank Herbert so intrusively narrates. I seems to me that Princess Irulian's Dune would have been much better.


 

shokadh

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I read Dune in high school and I enjoyed it, but it was very difficult to read, I thought. I plowed through it because I really liked the whole idea and the story grabbed my interest but to be honest, I just barely managed to finish Dune Messiah and never did finish Children of Dune.

I agree, it probably wouldn't have been published today. The market is way more competitive, readers are much less forgiving (because of our modern impatience with anything that takes more than 20 seconds to figure out) and the sci/fi industry has been swamped with spinoff ideas.

The thing about Dune was that it was one of the first in its kind, genre-wise. Sci-fi was just developing and the whole concept of future worlds with environmental issues and technological advances that had backfired was just beginning to take off. It was a trailblazer for its time and everything printed afterward seemed to be a copy or derivative of the original.

Frank Herbert (and a few others) did for Sci-Fi what Tolkein did for Fantasy, in my opinion.
 

Higgins

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I read Dune at an impressionable Age when it first came out. I found it annoying (as an idle poet idling in graduate school) mostly because of the characters. Princess Irulian seems like the only reasonably idle person among them and she does help with the Info-dumping since apparently she is the only person with the time to have written all about the events that Frank Herbert so intrusively narrates. I seems to me that Princess Irulian's Dune would have been much better.



Fortunately, Frank and the reader have access to Irulan's private files:

With the Lady Jessica and Arrakis, the Bene Gesserit system of sowing implant-legends through the Missionaria Protectiva came to its fruition. The wisdom of seeding the known universe with a prophecy pattern for the protection of B.G. personnel has long been appreciated, but never have we seen a condition-ut-extremis with more ideal mating of person and preparation. The prophetic legends had taken on Arrakis even to the extent of adopted labels (including Reverend Mother, canto and respondu,and most of the Shari-a panoplia propheticus). And it is generally accepted now that the Lady Jessica's latent abilities were grossly underestimated.
"Analysis: The Arrakeen Crisis" by the Princess Irulan
[private circulation: B.G. file number AR-81088587]

Dune

from http://www.dunemessiah.com/irulan.shtml


 

williemeikle

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But I'm more convinced than ever, for the very reasons that I like the book, that it would never be published today and that is... sad. :cry:

A lot of it was first published in Analog in serial form. That, and the buzz around an early sixties ecological theme that was just becoming the "next big thing" was IMHO what drove it early on. Then, after it was published, the hippies descended on it. Along with Stranger in a Strange Land, and Lord of the Rings, it fueled a lot of lifestyles back then.

Definitely a book of its time, I read it again recently and found it strangely dated.

Paul Maud'dib is a great character though.
 

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Fantastic book, and what the hell's wrong with 3PO and italics for inner thoughts?!?!
 

BlueLucario

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Are you talking about Dune, by Frank Herbert? Because I was just reading it now.
 

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I skimmed through the crap at the beginning and got to the good stuff. It made the book all that much better for me IMO. I hate the "and the Duke of This bagat the Dutchess of That" stuff. Overall I loved it. I wonder if the editor tried to talk him out of putting that drivel in the beginning.
 

BlueLucario

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I skimmed through the crap at the beginning and got to the good stuff. It made the book all that much better for me IMO. I hate the "and the Duke of This bagat the Dutchess of That" stuff. Overall I loved it. I wonder if the editor tried to talk him out of putting that drivel in the beginning.
It was written in the 50's, I think.
 

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It was written in the 50's, I think.

I read it sometime in the late 70's. What made it worse was that I had just completed The Foundation Trillogy which is about as economical in fluff as it gets. So it was kinda like going from facing a fastball to a knuckleball. Maybe if I had started it out of the blue, I would have slogged through the beginning and tried to retain what he wrote in it, but I doubt it.
 

Ludka

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I think this goes for info dump in general. I loved Dune. I also loved the Dragonlance series. Both have heavy info dump. Yet both sold roughly a gazillion copies. Who decided info dump is bad? And why have agents moved away from it? Anyone know the history of this?
 

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Here's my experience with Dune:

I took a vacay to Boston with the folks, and I needed to have books to escape. I brought Dune and I brought Fear and Trembling, by Kierkegaard (philosopher, noted as the grandfather of existentialism).

I read the Kierkegaard. Twice.

ETA: No, really.

When we objectively investigate the truth, we reflect objectively about the truth as an object to which we are related. We do not reflect upon the relationship, but upon the fact that it is the truth--the truth to which we are related. When this to which we are related merely is the truth, the true, then the subject is in the truth. When we subjectively investigate the truth, we reflect subjectively upon the relationship of the individual; only when the how of this relationship is in truth, is the individual in truth, even if he is thus related to the untrue.

This was better vacation reading for me. I don't mean to sound snotty. DUNE was really boring.
 
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dpaterso

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Hah, I just read all 3 again, finished CoD on Saturday. I probably re-read 'em every couple of years, together with other long-time Sci-Fi favorites. The intricate worldbuilding is outstanding and is a big part of DUNE's appeal. That and the chivalry. I didn't like the film or the TV miniseries -- nothing compares with the book. Is the storytelling style outdated? I dunno, with so many characters offering so many different insights, perhaps it's the perfect vehicle.

The only thing is... and this is fairly idiotic, I know... when I read DUNE now, I'm constantly distracted by the rather obvious (country of) origin of the Fremen.

-Derek
 

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I know. Who knew Islam would become so important in the future, eh?
 

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I should probably read it. Only had the...ahem...privilege of seeing the film (the extended Alan Smithee cut) a few weeks ago. My God, was that the worst bit of filmmaking I'd seen in a while.

Guess I'll go pick it up.
 

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I enjoyed it because I appreciated the work Frank Herbert did putting in cultural material that related to the desert setting. Yes, there's a lot of information. No, it didn't bother me. While I like lots of rich information, what really bother me are digressions from the plot that don't serve to deepen the story or the motivations of the characters.

Many people complain about the head-hopping, but I didn't find it that confusing. Frank Herbert did this interesting thing which I'd probably call head-gliding or sliding than hopping. I did an analysis of it recently.

Definitely an influential book. Pulls us into the arena of more fully fleshed cultures and locations. I tend to think that Ursula LeGuin does it better - just my opinion!
 

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Fortunately, Frank and the reader have access to Irulan's private files:

With the Lady Jessica and Arrakis, the Bene Gesserit system of sowing implant-legends through the Missionaria Protectiva came to its fruition. The wisdom of seeding the known universe with a prophecy pattern for the protection of B.G. personnel has long been appreciated, but never have we seen a condition-ut-extremis with more ideal mating of person and preparation. The prophetic legends had taken on Arrakis even to the extent of adopted labels (including Reverend Mother, canto and respondu,and most of the Shari-a panoplia propheticus). And it is generally accepted now that the Lady Jessica's latent abilities were grossly underestimated.
"Analysis: The Arrakeen Crisis" by the Princess Irulan
[private circulation: B.G. file number AR-81088587]
Dune

from http://www.dunemessiah.com/irulan.shtml



With the various film versions of Princess Irulan, the Bene Gesserit system of knowing nothing about hats came to its fruition. The wisdom of seeding the known universe with absurd hats has long been appreciated, but never have we seen a condition-ut-extremis with more ideal mating of person and headware or head hardware or headwear. And it is generally accepted now that my hat's latent abilities were grossly underestimated.
"Analysis: The Hat Crisis" by the Princess Irulan
[private circulation: B.G. file number HAT-1]

Dune
 
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MelancholyMan

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I think this goes for info dump in general. I loved Dune. I also loved the Dragonlance series. Both have heavy info dump. Yet both sold roughly a gazillion copies. Who decided info dump is bad? And why have agents moved away from it? Anyone know the history of this?

Info dump is to reading what exercise is to living. Even though it leads to improved quality of life, exercise requires more effort than not-exercise. So people don't do it. I can't be any more specific than that without being flamed and cursed in the tongues of men and angles.
 

geardrops

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I can't be any more specific than that without being flamed and cursed in the tongues of men and angles.

Trigonometric swearing? I hope it's not to too strong a degree. Just want to make sure I'm attacking this from the right angle.

Sorry, didn't mean to go on a tangent.

I should quit before I seem obtuse.
 

vrabinec

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Info dump is to reading what exercise is to living. Even though it leads to improved quality of life, exercise requires more effort than not-exercise. So people don't do it. I can't be any more specific than that without being flamed and cursed in the tongues of men and angles.

No flames here except the ones in my shorts (chilli and beer yeasterday). But the info dump is text, and so it feels like I'm reading the history of The Taft-Hartley Act. Sure, it has a place in the world, and there are those out there who take some sort of pleasure in knowing what that history actually is, but when I pick up a book, I get pleasure from the fictive dream. If the info dump gets me there, then I read the whole thing (and I think I have read info dumps like that, I just can't say off hand which ones because they feel too much like a part of the book. The info dump at the beginning of Dune didn't do that for me (and most info dumps don't). So, like you say, they feel like excercise or homework.

Maybe it does enrich the story in some way, but I don't want to have to work that hard to be entertained.
 

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Maybe it does enrich the story in some way, but I don't want to have to work that hard to be entertained.

I don't mind reading infodumps and (as I've hinted above) the infodumpery in Dune is interestingly if ostentatioously incorported in the story via Princess Irulan...we even have the call numbers to her private (or BG) filing system. So the archive is in the story as both the secret analyses with its filing system and as the scholar-Princess.
 
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