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barbwire
04-06-2009, 09:55 AM
Does anyone know about the use of chloroform? I heard that it smells sweet, and knocks people out. How fast does it work? What other methods might be used on a person? Are there any side effects and how long does it last as far as the person who inhaled it?

willietheshakes
04-06-2009, 10:47 AM
THere are better ways to get an agent...

gothicangel
04-06-2009, 11:48 AM
It's a bit dated.

When I first started writing my novel I was going to use chloroform; but my current WIP has a scene where Rohypnol is used to drug a character.

I don't even know how you would get a hold of chloroform; it isn't used anymore by doctors because it causes liver damage. The main reason why I abandoned the idea, I didn't want my character ending up needing a liver transplant.

fancie
04-06-2009, 11:58 AM
I write fantasy, so I was able to skirt around all of that tech stuff...lol. I made up my own effects (feel, scent, how long it lasted) and name for the "knock 'em outer". ;) (and no, that's not what I called it!)

gothicangel
04-06-2009, 11:59 AM
I found this on wikipedia, I think you should read it:

"In film, television and video games, it is sometimes used in a fictional manner to knock out an unsuspecting victim (after being poured on a rag and being pressed to the mouth and/or nose), leaving no trace. It should be emphasized that to induce unconsciousness in an adult human would require almost as much chloroform as it takes to kill an adult human; the lack of precision inherent in administering a drug by inhalation outside of a medical setting makes this practice extremely dangerous as well as unlikely to actually work (given that one would have to restrain the victim for some time; a few whiffs of pure chloroform will only mildly sedate most adults)."

barbwire
04-06-2009, 12:05 PM
Thank you for the feedback. The information is quite helpful.

I'm interested in what one person said about inventing his own. I don't suppose you could share more on that idea?

Team 2012
04-06-2009, 12:15 PM
I think that's pretty obvious, actually.
You make up a name, give it whatever properties you want.

"This vial contains Damitall, which is what we've been calling this experimental hypnotic. A few whiffs are enough to create motor ataxia. One precaution...."

"I had reservations about using Prelibum on so young a subject. After all, it hadn't yet been...."

Whatever

James D. Macdonald
04-06-2009, 12:24 PM
Dr. John Snow did a lot of work on chloroform in the mid-nineteenth century. You might consider reading a biography. Figuring out the dose needed to produce unconsciousness for a given duration, then administering that dose, is why anesthesiologists make the big bucks.

Other "knock-out-drops": Chloral hydrate (the classic "Mickey Finn"), fentanyl citrate (can be used as a finely divided mist; very likely what the Russian Army used to knock out the hostage-takers in the Moscow Theater crisis), or even nicotine.

What kind of shape does your knocked-out person need to be in after he/she wakes up?

gothicangel
04-06-2009, 01:59 PM
I think the problem with using chloroform is that it is a 'fictional device.' Crime writing (an assumption here) requires high levels of forensic/medical accuracy. You are more likely to kill the victim than knock them out.

I would definitely look at other options. What is the genre. I don't know if crime readers would let you away with inventing a drug.

waylander
04-06-2009, 02:10 PM
[quote=James D. Macdonald;3465138
Other "knock-out-drops": Chloral hydrate (the classic "Mickey Finn"), fentanyl citrate (can be used as a finely divided mist; very likely what the Russian Army used to knock out the hostage-takers in the Moscow Theater crisis), or even nicotine.[/quote]

the Russians killed a lot of the hostages with their 'knock out gas' in the Moscow theatre crisis.
It is difficult getting the dose right for your victim. Unless you can figure the dose per kilo of body weight correctly you stand a good chance of either killing them or not anaesthetising them enough.

cbenoi1
04-06-2009, 04:14 PM
Check out this thread: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3115719

I think the OP used a chokehold followed by intravenous Ketamine.

-cb

fancie
04-06-2009, 06:03 PM
I think that's pretty obvious, actually.
You make up a name, give it whatever properties you want.

"This vial contains Damitall, which is what we've been calling this experimental hypnotic. A few whiffs are enough to create motor ataxia. One precaution...."

"I had reservations about using Prelibum on so young a subject. After all, it hadn't yet been...."

Whatever

Yeah, you've pretty much got it. ;)
I didn't need great detail. My story doesn't focus on the crime as much as the feelings surrounding the obduction and what it results in.

RJK
04-06-2009, 07:16 PM
I used a stun gun followed by an intramuscular injection of ketamine in my novel. The stun gun imobilized them long enought to inject them. The ketamine put them under.

adktd2bks
04-06-2009, 08:07 PM
Hehe...I have a huge bottle of chloroform sitting about 20 feet away from me. Seriously, I work in a molecular biology lab and we use it quite frequently for things like DNA isolation. I think you would have to be associated with a university or the likes to be able to buy it, but really any type of laboratory would have it (chem lab, biology lab, microbiology lab). If the villain in your story doesn't care if the MC dies, then you could say that he steals some from a lab and uses the old saturated in a hanky method. This link is the MSDS for chloroform that might give you some more detailed info as to hazards, side effects of exposure, and such.

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/c2915.htm

James D. Macdonald
04-06-2009, 08:09 PM
the Russians killed a lot of the hostages with their 'knock out gas' in the Moscow theatre crisis.

That they did. Around 15%. Part of the problem was that they refused to tell the medics what exactly they'd used; if it was fentanyl, the antidote is naloxone and knowing that, and having enough on hand, might have been helpful.

cbenoi1
04-06-2009, 08:28 PM
Apparently, oil-based perfumes can mask the scent. Injected in a hacked AirWick pluggable device should be enough to saturate a small room. It's a nifty trap if the target is to spend significant time in that location (i.e. in a small washroom and the victim is happily reacting to ipecac).

-cb

gothicangel
04-06-2009, 08:33 PM
Yeah, you've pretty much got it. ;)
I didn't need great detail. My story doesn't focus on the crime as much as the feelings surrounding the abduction and what it results in.

Me too; but as I'm writing crime fiction scientific accuracy is paramount.

Would like to highlight my previous post: chloroform is a 'fictional device' scientifically the odds are the ploy wouldn't work. I also think that you're running the risk of knowledgable readers ripping your novel to bits.

gothicangel
04-06-2009, 08:39 PM
Apparently, oil-based perfumes can mask the scent. Injected in a hacked AirWick pluggable device should be enough to saturate a small room. It's a nifty trap if the target is to spend significant time in that location (i.e. in a small washroom and the victim is happily reacting to ipecac).

-cb

But how would you guarantee it was the right amount to knock out the victim? Also how can you guarantee it getting the right person? Finally how can you know the time at which your victim will enter the room without coincidence?

Cyia
04-06-2009, 09:18 PM
Chloroform also has a nasty kickback. The victim would have a killer headache and be pretty nauseous once there was enough of it in his system to affect him.

cbenoi1
04-06-2009, 09:38 PM
> But how would you guarantee it was the right amount to knock out the victim?

The device spews out a constant quantity of chemicals per minute when turned on. The concentration in the air will be rising from this point on until is reaches the MAC index. The speed at which it will rise depends on the volume of the room and how fast the AirWick can spew out its chemicals. Conversely, the concentration will drop when you open the door or turn off the device. A victim, any victim, would have to spend some significant time for the concentration to slowly rise above the MAC index. I don't know how much vaporization a pluggable AirWick can spew out, but this can be measured or experimented beforehand.

> Also how can you guarantee it getting the right person?

You have to force an event that will make this person spend enough time in that closed space. It's a matter of being smart with the method. A hacked laser printer ink cartridge that drops its contents on the victim's clothes, Ipecac in the coffee, etc.

> Finally how can you know the time at which your victim will enter the room without coincidence?

Only those who spend enough time in the close space will feel the effect. Again, if you can provoke such an event with a specific victim in mind, timing is a moot point.


> The victim would have a killer headache and be pretty nauseous once
> there was enough of it in his system to affect him.

That is the main drawback. I don't know how to fix that. Maybe other derivatives don't have such side effects.

As stated above, there are better methods than choloroform.

-cb

gothicangel
04-06-2009, 10:34 PM
To me that would kill a novel, the sheer unbelievablity of it. It sounds like something from a James Bond novel.

No way would it happen in a crime novel.

Bryan M Stephenson
04-07-2009, 05:04 AM
I don't know the background as far as time the criminal has or location but i do know of one drug VERSAID that will actually cause amnesia of an event. It is an injection sedative that is rather fast acting (within 10- 20 minuets) and the victim has no recollection of the events that took place.

Since you said the story is more about how she felt after wards this would be a good one to use. She could have partial memory recall, hazy images, emotional relapse.

Your bad guy can get it in almost any fire dept it is locked up but not like a pharmacy and not ussually with cameras.

http://sleep.emedtv.com/versed/versaid.html

gothicangel
04-07-2009, 11:38 AM
Why are the Fire service got drugs like that; and not locked away? Sounds like it has too much potential for a date rape drug for my liking!

bonitakale
04-07-2009, 07:16 PM
Here are a few sites that looked helpful

http://matrix.msu.edu/~johnsnow/work.php?id=51 (http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/html/chloroform.html http://www.gilai.com/scripts/more/met546-therapeutic-Therapeutic%20Items-yes.html http://sleep.lovetoknow.com/Chloroform_for_Sleep http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061221030114AACcDgn http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=2786.0 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D01EEDF1630E033A25756C2A9659C94 659ED7CF)

http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/misc/chloroform.html

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/ripperoo-chloro.html

And some others:


http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/html/chloroform.html

http://www.gilai.com/scripts/more/met546-therapeutic-Therapeutic%20Items-yes.html

http://sleep.lovetoknow.com/Chloroform_for_Sleep


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061221030114AACcDgn

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=2786.0

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D01EEDF1630E033A25756C2A9659C94 659ED7CF

elfinwriter
04-15-2009, 05:03 AM
Does anyone know about the use of chloroform? I heard that it smells sweet, and knocks people out. How fast does it work? What other methods might be used on a person? Are there any side effects and how long does it last as far as the person who inhaled it?

Check out this URL and there is a lots of information on the internet. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts6.html