For the love of dogs, can anyone help me out here?

Carole · Apr 3, 2009

My puppy. *insert heavy sigh*

Ok, here is the thing. If I can't figure out something, and soon, I am going to have to find a new home for the pup we brought home from the shelter just before Christmas.

I think she is insane. I really do. And I'm not far behind her.

I'm a member at Cesar Millan's web community. I've received loads of advice there, and so far nothing is working. I watch his shows all the time, and we try to employ the techniques we see there, but nothing. I've read article after article online, and still no results.

Gypsy does not respond to things like walking toward her when she is being aggressive--that sends her into attack mode. We can't sit in the living room with any kind of food or drink because she takes a run and dives into it. If we see her coming and get out of the way, she still tries. She runs our older dog out of her food constantly. I put down two bowls of water and two bowls of food when I feed them, but Gypsy runs around between them all and poor little Sinner just walks away, sits and waits until Gypsy is finally done, and then she will eat. I have started blocking Gypsy off by herself when it's time to eat so Sinner can have some peace.

And Gypsy is destructive. If there is nothing lying around for her to break, she will take a bite out of the wall. The WALL!

Instead of getting better with her potty training, I think she is getting worse. We take potty breaks often throughout the day, but still--every time she comes inside she still goes straight in and pees or poops somewhere. I keep potty pads down where she ordinarily goes when this happens, but she potties beside them, not on them. The new carpet in the living room is beyond repair now. We are going to have to rip it up and throw it out.

My house is being destroyed. Our shoes are being destroyed. Everything we own is being destroyed. Everything we own smells like pee or poop. I go behind her constantly with cleaners, scrub brushes and sponges.

Everyone keeps telling me that since she is part lab and part golden retriever, she might be like this for a year, and maybe even TWO years. I don't think I can live like this for that long. If I can't find something that works, I will have to find her another home. I know she is a high energy puppy and needs lots of exercise. We walk with her, and we also send her outside to play during the day. But I just can't spend every single moment of every day chasing after her. I try putting her into the bathroom (where she sleeps at night) if I have to do something like study or take a test, but she doesn't just howl for a little while. Last time, she howled for three hours straight until we couldn't stand it anymore.

I just don't know what to do. I have never had a dog like this, and neither has my husband. She is so far beyond anything either of us has ever dealt with that we are miserable and clueless. The most unfortunate thing about it all is that we are really beginning to not like her. That's not good for her, and it's not good for us. And poor Sinner has lost all quality of life. She is old, and she gets no peace from the puppy. And now, since the puppy is bigger than her, she gets roughed up a lot too.

Besides walking her all day long, playing with her all day long, wrapping the whole inside of the house with linoleum and leaving Sinner in my bedroom all day every day so she can have some peace, what can be done?

DeleyanLee · Apr 3, 2009

1. Have you taken her to the vet for complete bloodwork, etc, to find out if it's something physical?

It's expensive, but it's a good first step. When a friend of mine got a lab mix from the shelter, he had serious housebreaking problems too. When the vet checked him out, they discovered that he had some kind of parasite and once they treated that, he calmed down and trained very quickly. It can get expensive, but that's the first thing to check and make certain of.

2) If it's not physical, since you're a member of Cesar's community--have you emailed his office and explained the situation? What's the worse that can happen? You get on the show? I mean, really. This is evidently something you need a professional to help you deal with, not just articles and DIY.

That's what comes to mind at the moment. Good luck with her.

Devil Ledbetter · Apr 3, 2009

No advice, just sympathy. I suppose it's entirely possible for a dog to be crazy, or suffer from Prader-Willie Syndrome, just as humans can.

Jean Marie · Apr 3, 2009

How old was she when you got her, Carole?

Were you her first home?

Carole · Apr 3, 2009

Both points are certainly worthwhile.

How sad is it that I was hoping someone would say, "Find her another home before you go broke and insane!"

*sigh*

I'm having a pretty bad day, I guess.

But the vet has checked her. I don't know if it was the same thing you are talking about, but she is parasite-free and healthy as far as the vet is concerned. He just laughs and says, "You have one energetic little pup on your hands, don't you?'

And then I do the Lurch grumble as she runs figure eights around my legs.

veinglory · Apr 3, 2009

I would suggest going to a veterinary behaviorist. One or two visits might be a little costly but it will be worth it. Vets are not trained on behavioral issues, veterinary behaviorists are.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=79&Itemid=357

To me, honestly, she sould like a lab puppy. A few environmental changes will probably make a 75% difference. For example, feed the puppy in a separate room. It is likely to involve a lot of patiently ignoring the puppy or timing out when she is hyper, and lavish praise when it is calm. I have a border colliexspaniel that is crazy hyper and chewed a hole in my wall three times. It did take a while to come right but then I never considered surrendering him as an option. Now he is fine most of the time.

p.s. Millan's techniques are not the best with a dog that is disobediant due to being hyper, not dominant.

Jean Marie · Apr 3, 2009

I'm guessing she doesn't like to be locked up. Kola hated the crate when he was a pup. I got him when he was 7 1/2 weeks old from a shelter. I mean, he hated it! I caved, he slept w/ me. Been fine ever since.

Carole · Apr 3, 2009

Devil Ledbetter said:
No advice, just sympathy. I suppose it's entirely possible for a dog to be crazy, or suffer from Prader-Willie Syndrome, just as humans can.

Thanks. I honestly think she might really be off her nut.

Jean Marie said:
How old was she when you got her, Carole?

Were you her first home?

Hi lady. Gypsy was between eight and ten weeks old when we got her. I don't know if we are her first home or not. According to the shelter, she was found wandering down the road by the woman who brought her in to the shelter. That seems awfully young for a pup to be outside running the streets alone. She would barely have been weaned.

BlueLucario · Apr 3, 2009

I had a puppy who chewed eeverything I owned. He's notorious for stealing bras out of the bedrooms.

Either she's teething, or she's just bored. Either way buy him some toys. If you catch him doing things he isn't supposed to be doing then, yell out "NO!"

Carole · Apr 3, 2009

Jean Marie said:
I'm guessing she doesn't like to be locked up. Kola hated the crate when he was a pup. I got him when he was 7 1/2 weeks old from a shelter. I mean, he hated it! I caved, he slept w/ me. Been fine ever since.

Actually, and this is the weirdest thing, Gypsy loves her crate! The only time she does settle down is when it's nighttime and we take her in to bed. The lower bathroom is big. It's part tile floor, and part wood floor and it stayed constantly warm through the winter, so we decided to put her crate in there since the rest of the house stayed so cold. We have never locked her into her crate. We set it up into an empty closet alcove and the door is always open. Close to her bed is her food and water, and on the opposite end of the room is where we put the potty pads that she pees beside. LOL! It's when we put her into her room and it's not bedtime that she goes ballistic.

Sinner has always slept on the bed with us. We tried that recently with Gypsy, but she jumped off the bed, ran over and jumped up to bite one of hubby's guitars hanging on the wall. He didn't like that one little bit, so it was off to her room again.

Carole · Apr 3, 2009

I'm sorry--I'm laughing and laughing here.

Gypsy has toys all over the house. Yes, she was definitely teething recently. She lost two of her milk teeth in one day. For some reason, she does play with her toys but she also eats everything else too. When we yell "NO!", she runs at us with her teeth bared and in attack mode with those wild eyes.

Jean Marie · Apr 3, 2009

Hi you

I was a pup raiser for guide pups that were the tough ones...I don't know why

but they were fun. the cat chasers, the biters, the ones who wouldn't walk on leash, the real pain in the butts. They took loads of work, and in the end, were worth every second.

Sounds like you've got one of those. And they were all labs, who are all food motivated.

Keep her separated when it's feeding time. That's a definite. Sinner (pretty funny name) needs her time, or she's going to get indigestion. At her age, she doesn't need it.

As to potty training, when you take her out, make it immediately after feeding, after waking and instantly after she pees or poops. It will take time, but she'll get it. It won't take a year, either. A month or 2.

Let her run off lead, she'll get more exercise that way. Chase a ball, things like that. Walking on lead isn't enough of an energy release for a lab. If you've got a lake, river, let her swim, that will help tremendously, too. It's what's known as cross training.

Carole · Apr 3, 2009

veinglory said:
I would suggest going to a veterinary behaviorist. One or two visits might be a little costly but it will be worth it. Vets are not trained on behavioral issues, veterinary behaviorists are.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=79&Itemid=357

To me, honestly, she sould like a lab puppy. A few environmental changes will probably make a 75% difference. For example, feed the puppy in a separate room. It is likely to involve a lot of patiently ignoring the puppy or timing out when she is hyper, and lavish praise when it is calm. I have a border colliexspaniel that is crazy hyper and chewed a hole in my wall three times. It did take a while to come right but then I never considered surrendering him as an option. Now he is fine most of the time.

p.s. Millan's techniques are not the best with a dog that is disobediant due to being hyper, not dominant.

I did not know that. Seriously! We watch those shows and just believe that he is the god of all things canine.

But I wonder how that factors in with her being not only hyper but also very aggressive. She just gets this wild-eyed, crazy-snarling thing about her like she is ready to eat your face off.

Of course I feel like the worst puppy mommy in the history of the world. The only reason I think about finding her another home is that some days I think I am going insane.

Jean Marie · Apr 3, 2009

Carole said:
Actually, and this is the weirdest thing, Gypsy loves her crate! The only time she does settle down is when it's nighttime and we take her in to bed. The lower bathroom is big. It's part tile floor, and part wood floor and it stayed constantly warm through the winter, so we decided to put her crate in there since the rest of the house stayed so cold. We have never locked her into her crate. We set it up into an empty closet alcove and the door is always open. Close to her bed is her food and water, and on the opposite end of the room is where we put the potty pads that she pees beside. LOL! It's when we put her into her room and it's not bedtime that she goes ballistic.

Sinner has always slept on the bed with us. We tried that recently with Gypsy, but she jumped off the bed, ran over and jumped up to bite one of hubby's guitars hanging on the wall. He didn't like that one little bit, so it was off to her room again.

Ah, she doesn't want to be away from you! Ever.

Maybe, she likes hard chew toys, such as Kong type, or tiny guitars...wallboard. lol! Grunting toys are fun and they like the sound of 'em. Seriously. Maybe, we can set up a fund for you...

Carole · Apr 3, 2009

Jean Marie said:
Hi you

I was a pup raiser for guide pups that were the tough ones...I don't know why but they were fun. the cat chasers, the biters, the ones who wouldn't walk on leash, the real pain in the butts. They took loads of work, and in the end, were worth every second.

Sounds like you've got one of those. And they were all labs, who are all food motivated.

Keep her separated when it's feeding time. That's a definite. Sinner (pretty funny name) needs her time, or she's going to get indigestion. At her age, she doesn't need it.

As to potty training, when you take her out, make it immediately after feeding, after waking and instantly after she pees or poops. It will take time, but she'll get it. It won't take a year, either. A month or 2.

Let her run off lead, she'll get more exercise that way. Chase a ball, things like that. Walking on lead isn't enough of an energy release for a lab. If you've got a lake, river, let her swim, that will help tremendously, too. It's what's known as cross training.

I can definitely see how she would be food motivated. We've always let Sinner have free access to her food because she never ate more than a little at a time, and never overate. With Gypsy, that isn't the case. If allowed, she would eat all of hers and all of Sinner's too.

By the way--Sinner is her nickname, but it stuck. She earned it one day when she was a baby. Hubby had a piece of pizza on a plate sitting on the coffee table. He got up to go to the kitchen for a drink, and when he came back there wasn't even a crumb left. And there Sinner was, looking like the Cheshire cat! She was so tiny, we had no idea she could even reach the coffee table! He said, "You little sinner! You're not supposed to steal!" and she responded so cute that we started calling her by that name. I'll bet she wouldn't even answer to Countess, which is what we originally named her. (I know--countess is an awful name! LOL!)

About the running off lead, unfortunately the only place she can do that is in our backyard. But it's big, and it's fenced so I don't have to worry about her getting away from me. We do this every day that it isn't raining. We go outside with several balls. Soccer balls, dodge balls, tennis balls, etc. I kick them or throw them around, and Gypsy chases them.

I do worry about Sinner. She is the most docile, gentle dog I have ever known. Right now, she is on my bed but I had to close the door so Gypsy wouldn't be in there driving her crazy. We have always had a very calm, peaceful, quiet house. That is what Sinner is used to.

Something else I am worried about. I just got a job (YAY ME!!!!!). I have been home since the beginning of October. I go to school, but the school is close to home, and so I'm really not away from home much. Since I haven't had a dog like Gypsy before, I really wonder and worry about what to do with her beginning Monday when I start work. I can't leave her out in the house. If I did that. we'd come home to a pile of rubble with her sitting on top saying, "Look what *I* did!" and Sinner shivering on someone else's porch saying, "Mama--make her stop!"

TerzaRima · Apr 3, 2009

How much exercise does she get? She sounds like a dog who needs to walk and walk and walk.

veinglory · Apr 3, 2009

My dog was also originally aggressive to dogs and people. With very high energy dogs they don't cope well with noise and sudden movement. My dog was poorly socialised and untrained and would snap and snarl because he basically had no coping skills and was easily upset. A regular routine, very calm handling, and retreat area sorted out the human agression in a few weeks and the dog aggression in a few months.

A dominance approach can actually increase a dogs fear if they are already occassionally fearful, frenetic and confused

If Millan was there in person he would adapt the approach, but his most common advice relates to the most copmmon problems, people not even really trying to control their dogs! And it should like you sure are trying your best to give the dog what it needs.

Feel free to email me for a referal suggestion or basic tips. In my experience once you hit the right strategy it works very quickly. Then it is just a matter of being consistent. My dog will still fall back into bad habits but only if frightened, like when there is a thunderstorm or I leave him home alone several night in a row. Mostly he is fine now.

One other tip, my dogs needs a lot of walking but he could walk all day and night. He also needed clear signals when play time was over and it was down time. Once he had that he bothered me a lot less. For example I put away all toys when I have work to do (dogs are rigged mainly for social play not solo play) and I give him a chew stick. I also put a dog bed right next to where I work and give him occassional attentions so long as he sits quietly. It took a few weeks but then I was able to work uninterupted.

LaurieD · Apr 3, 2009

We had a yellow Lab/Golden (Jake) who was about 8 to 10 weeks old when we got him. As long as one of us was around, he was fairly well behaved, but whenever we were both gone, he'd destroy books, furniture, shoes, and always leave a stinky and wet present in the hallway. Taking him for a walk was suicide - he'd pull on the leash, wrap it around our ankles, etc...

After a while we figured out a routine that worked. He loved to catch a ball, so we'd throw a ball for him several times a day until he was too tired to chase it anymore, then we'd let him in - this stopped a lot of the destruction. If it was too wet (for us mere humans) to play catch outside, we'd roll a soccer ball or a tennis ball across the living room for him. If both my husband and I had to be away from home, we'd put Jake outside for at least an hour before we planned to leave and when he came in, we kept him penned in the laundry room with only his own toys (mainly balls, rawhide bones, and pet stuffed animals). He didn't like to pee/poo on his own stuff and it wasn't long before he stopped "going" in the house. We also had to feed him separately or he'd run off our other dogs (one a year older than him, the other a few years younger).

He learned to finally walk on a leash when he was almost ten years old. He was a lot of work initially, and several times a day for days on end I'd wish that I'd given my husband a goldfish for Valentine's Day instead of that furry blonde puppy, but he ended up being the best dog we've ever had (we lost him to cancer this past summer).

I hope something works out for you and your puppy. The first one to two years with a lab or a labx are pure chaos but they do grow out of it and all the patience and hard work are well worth the reward.

DeleyanLee · Apr 3, 2009

Whereas our labs were always happiest to go outside in the rain and splash around in puddles. They never even noticed the wet and looked at us like we were morons if we ran inside to get out of it. LOL!

Susie · Apr 3, 2009

Gee, sure hope it works out aok for you both. That bites, Carole. No pun intended. ((((HUGS))))).

emc07 · Apr 3, 2009

Hi Carole,
I'm so sorry you have to go through this. I have recently been through the small puppy stage myself. My husband and I have a rottie. She is really gettting much better now, but in the beginning was a nightmare. I cried a lot.

We got her into local puppy training and it has made a huge difference. Have you thought about that at all?

Maya always peed in this one spot next to the door for a while, then we steam cleaned it (something I would highly reccommend getting with a puppy) and now she hasn't gone since. I'm not sure the pee pads are a good idea for your dog especially if Gypsy is not using them. It may reinforce that it's okay to go inside? I don't know. I'm not an expert, so this is just friendly advice.

We also recently put a string with a bell around the door to go outside. She rings it when she has to go, and that has also worked really well with the potty training.

As for the agression, my advice would be to get her into training or seek help from a vet.

I hope your situation gets better... I know how hard it can be.

Carole · Apr 3, 2009

Really, thanks to everyone. I'm reading and re-reading all the suggestions.

As it happens, Miss Gypsy is lying under my desk right now looking at me as if she loves me to pieces, and consequently I am sitting here feeling like the worst mommy in the world. This is the most difficult thing I have ever done, trying to figure out how to work with her in the right way. She really is beautiful, and she really can be sweet (sometimes!) and so of course I want what is best for her. Then again, I would want what's best for her if she weren't those things. I think if we had a big farm somewhere and she could run all day instead of when we are able to let her, she would be just fine. I'm really considering a behaviorist for her, but I don't know if I could afford it.

Ambrosia · Apr 3, 2009

Carole...

The aggression absolutely MUST be dealt with immediately. What your pup is doing is trying to take over the pack. It is normal dog behavior. To combat it you must think like a dog, realize what the behavior is about, and deal with it in a consistent and firm manner.

I have a shepherd/husky mix who was found feral in a field with her siblings at the young age of 7 weeks. She has a couple of the traits your lab has and we continue to have to squash the aggression thing with her when it pops up, which is far less now that she is older. But a few months back I had to deal with it again. I do not know if it is something she will ever grow out of. She is just reaching 'senior' in age according to the vet.

What you need to do... when she acts aggressive, give her a firm 'no', not a shout, but forceful. Grab her and roll her on her back. Then, 'lay' across her exposed belly/chest. It tells her that you are a bigger dog than she is and that she is lower in the 'pack'. You have to make sure she is secure and can not get out of the hold. Watch her teeth. Secure her mouth if needed to keep yourself safe from being bitten. It will be easier to lay across her once she is older as she will be bigger, but do it now. You have to stop the aggression. Once you have her on her back, make sure every person in the house does the 'laying' over her. If you leave anyone out, she will assume they are below her and she will become aggressive with them. Don't let her up until she stops growling and exhibiting aggression. If she starts again when she is let up, roll her again. You must do this every time she shows aggression to maintain your position in the pack. She will continue to test you as time goes on, but it will lessen.

The other thing we did regarding the aggression was have a time out place for our dog. We have a dog chair and if she is misbehaving, after rolling her we make her go to her chair and stay there until we say it is ok to come out. Then we call her over and pet her and praise her for being good. Be consistent. If is exceptionally important to handling this trait.

Don't laugh at bad behaviors, regardless how cute they are because it is a puppy doing it. That puppy will become a large dog and it will not be cute. If the animal misbehaves, send her to her chair and make her stay there until she learns.

Labs are intelligent. They need to have a job. They are working animals. If you do not figure out a job for her she will remain unruly. Think up something she can do, even if it is carrying a rag around in her mouth when you take her for a walk. You can brighten her day once she knows what her job is by saying, "let's go to work". That cues her that fun time is over and she has to be serious. She will take to it, but be consistent.

We still can not let this dog have her fill of food. I think it comes from being feral and starving when she was a baby. I have never had to deal with it before and it is a pain because I free feed normally. It has changed my schedule around to meet this need of hers. But it is necessary. so ya do what ya have to do.

All puppies chew. Just like babies stick everything in their mouths so will a puppy chew anything they can get ahold of. Whenever your puppy starts to chew something she shouldn't, correct her, take that object away, and give her one of her toys. When she takes the toy, praise her. Repeat as needed. Be consistent. Although puppies chew, that behavior should not last as long as their puppy-hood does. My shepherd/lab mix learned quickly what she could and could not chew. Just remember, these dogs are sharp and they will try their wits against you, testing you as often as they can. Be firm, be consistent, and you will have an awesome dog once she is trained.

Good luck.

BlueLucario · Apr 3, 2009

Ambrosia said:
The aggression absolutely MUST be dealt with immediately. What your pup is doing is trying to take over the pack. It is normal dog behavior. To combat it you must think like a dog, realize what the behavior is about, and deal with it in a consistent and firm manner.

Good luck.

I wonder why no one tried this instead for resorting to euthanasia.

emc07 · Apr 3, 2009

Ambrosia said:
Carole...

The aggression absolutely MUST be dealt with immediately. What your pup is doing is trying to take over the pack. It is normal dog behavior. To combat it you must think like a dog, realize what the behavior is about, and deal with it in a consistent and firm manner.

I have a shepherd/husky mix who was found feral in a field with her siblings at the young age of 7 weeks. She has a couple of the traits your lab has and we continue to have to squash the aggression thing with her when it pops up, which is far less now that she is older. But a few months back I had to deal with it again. I do not know if it is something she will ever grow out of. She is just reaching 'senior' in age according to the vet.

What you need to do... when she acts aggressive, give her a firm 'no', not a shout, but forceful. Grab her and roll her on her back. Then, 'lay' across her exposed belly/chest. It tells her that you are a bigger dog than she is and that she is lower in the 'pack'. You have to make sure she is secure and can not get out of the hold. Watch her teeth. Secure her mouth if needed to keep yourself safe from being bitten. It will be easier to lay across her once she is older as she will be bigger, but do it now. You have to stop the aggression. Once you have her on her back, make sure every person in the house does the 'laying' over her. If you leave anyone out, she will assume they are below her and she will become aggressive with them. Don't let her up until she stops growling and exhibiting aggression. If she starts again when she is let up, roll her again. You must do this every time she shows aggression to maintain your position in the pack. She will continue to test you as time goes on, but it will lessen.

The other thing we did regarding the aggression was have a time out place for our dog. We have a dog chair and if she is misbehaving, after rolling her we make her go to her chair and stay there until we say it is ok to come out. Then we call her over and pet her and praise her for being good. Be consistent. If is exceptionally important to handling this trait.

Don't laugh at bad behaviors, regardless how cute they are because it is a puppy doing it. That puppy will become a large dog and it will not be cute. If the animal misbehaves, send her to her chair and make her stay there until she learns.

Labs are intelligent. They need to have a job. They are working animals. If you do not figure out a job for her she will remain unruly. Think up something she can do, even if it is carrying a rag around in her mouth when you take her for a walk. You can brighten her day once she knows what her job is by saying, "let's go to work". That cues her that fun time is over and she has to be serious. She will take to it, but be consistent.

We still can not let this dog have her fill of food. I think it comes from being feral and starving when she was a baby. I have never had to deal with it before and it is a pain because I free feed normally. It has changed my schedule around to meet this need of hers. But it is necessary. so ya do what ya have to do.

All puppies chew. Just like babies stick everything in their mouths so will a puppy chew anything they can get ahold of. Whenever your puppy starts to chew something she shouldn't, correct her, take that object away, and give her one of her toys. When she takes the toy, praise her. Repeat as needed. Be consistent. Although puppies chew, that behavior should not last as long as their puppy-hood does. My shepherd/lab mix learned quickly what she could and could not chew. Just remember, these dogs are sharp and they will try their wits against you, testing you as often as they can. Be firm, be consistent, and you will have an awesome dog once she is trained.

Good luck.

This is great advice. The working dog info. is perfect. The training can help that, or you can just pick up a tricks book and try that. We also use the crate as a timeout.

Thanks Ambrosia. I couldn't say it better.

For the love of dogs, can anyone help me out here?

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