Big brother isn't as big a problem as cousin Vinny.

Awful. But then, why should anybody worry about what they owe?? Lately, the nouveau mantra has been to hell with the middle class; only the rich get bailed out because they have been ordained as the alpha leeches. But lookey: maybe the "up to the eyeballs" middle class gets a shot at a free ride, too. Of course, it wouldn't need it if we had civilized health care. Trouble is, who's gonna pay for all this??

I watched that the other night, RT. It was horrifying. Makes loan sharks look like the nice guys, hence the thread title.

Also, makes me wonder about the people who are employed by these freaks; they can't have much of a conscience.

Anybody with two nickels to rub together can buy a debt portfolio and set up and start collecting the debts.

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again - an industry that is poorly regulated. as such, even you or i could purchase these debts and start collecting.

Harvard's Elizabeth Warren says cleaning up the credit industry will require fundamental reform from the lower rungs of debt collectors, right up to the banks and credit cards companies that helped fuel the debt epidemic in the first place.

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More than bailouts - I suggested resetting all counters to zero months ago. The poor have always been poor - but the wealth that moves is from the middle class. The wealthy are somewhat isolated. Not much affects them anyway. tsk. some days i am thankful to be poor. and mean.

Rolling Thunder said:

I think it comes down to a lot of honest people, who really want to be able to pay their debts, end up in a bad spot because the CC companies have too much power. It's like the old style debtor prison. How do you pay off a debt if the interest rate suddenly goes from 10% to 35%? It doesn't make sense, unless there are others like debt collection agencies angling to make a profit as well.

And the new regs coming in 2010 don't address the issue at all.

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I think we have to seriously consider recriminalizing usuary. That would be a start to a real middle class bailout.

Well, I'm in something of disagreement here. I think there's a problem with people expecting that their lifestyle should be "X," and when they lose a job, they continue to live the lifestyle of "X," regardless of a change of circumstance. Now I know it's easy to run into debt the first couple of months, but honestly, I know a kid bringing home 2300 in unemployment a month. He still has credit card debt. I mean, it gets ridiculous.

The health care situation is far more responsible than the credit card industry. And yes, the credit card industry is full of unethical practice, and a practice that should be addressed. A lot of it is, in the new regs, including - from my understanding - barring the jacking up of rates unexpectedly.

But ultimately, the real solution is Americans becoming wiser about spending.

Rolling Thunder said:

The new regs don't address caps though. So if a CC wants to jack a rate up from 10% to 35% or 60% they just have to mail you a letter stating they'll do that in 30 days.


But here's the thing: credit got the big banks into trouble and credit is what's getting them out. That credit would be in the form of loans by the taxpayer at a low interest rate. Meanwhile, while the Fed drops rates that makes money cheap to borrow, the bank CC's are adding double digit rates on top of current charges instead of lending more money out. It's a double dip, IMO.

It isn't so much about flagrant spending; the recession is showing that people will tighten their grip when money is tight. But the market is a cycle --credit is required to keep a consumer market growing.

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Look, I can't argue with you about it, RT. It's pure corruption. But I think there's a really sad message here that most people are still unwilling to embrace, which is: capitalism doesn't work.

We should have nationalized AIG and nationalized these mega-banks that required taxpayer help. I think we should nationalize the troubled car companies or let them go. And we definitely need a national health care system.

As far as the credit card companies are concerned, it's just another example of people defining their moral behavior by what's legal, and THAT is the downfall of freedom. No restraint.

Bird of Prey said:

Well, I'm in something of disagreement here. I think there's a problem with people expecting that their lifestyle should be "X," and when they lose a job, they continue to live the lifestyle of "X," regardless of a change of circumstance. Now I know it's easy to run into debt the first couple of months, but honestly, I know a kid bringing home 2300 in unemployment a month. He still has credit card debt. I mean, it gets ridiculous.

The health care situation is far more responsible than the credit card industry. And yes, the credit card industry is full of unethical practice, and a practice that should be addressed. A lot of it is, in the new regs, including - from my understanding - barring the jacking up of rates unexpectedly.

But ultimately, the real solution is Americans becoming wiser about spending.

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But if you read the article, it says that a lot of these people were not trying to live the way they had. They were just trying to survive.

Diana Hignutt said:

I think we have to seriously consider recriminalizing usuary. That would be a start to a real middle class bailout.

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Yep. Amen.

Susan G.

Bird of Prey said:

As far as the credit card companies are concerned, it's just another example of people defining their moral behavior by what's legal, and THAT is the downfall of freedom.

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Quoted and bolded for absolute truth.

Bird of Prey said:

But I think there's a really sad message here that most people are still unwilling to embrace, which is: capitalism doesn't work.

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Capitalism based on DEBT doesn't work. I wonder how it would fair in a society based on savings/paying cash with minimal debt?

I hate reading stuff like this, because I remember what it was like to live beyond my means and get myself into a hole, robbing Peter to pay Paul, and having debt collectors hound you all day long. So I do sympathize.

But those of you who are struggling liket his, consider it a blessing and an opportunity. You, like I, are learning a hard lesson, but the lesson will eventually lead you to financial security if you choose to learn from your mistakes.

Alpha Echo said:

But if you read the article, it says that a lot of these people were not trying to live the way they had. They were just trying to survive.

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I understand. I guess I just have a question about the definition of "surviving." If it's health care related, it's definitely survival. If it's "putting food on the table," well, there are a lot of Americans that have a very different definition of what constitutes "food on the table" than I do.

I've heard lots of stories from folks who are in major hock trying to give their kids this or that, and it starts to sound ridiculous. Maybe there's a fine line between real need and a sense of entitlement, but my opinion is that are many that demonstrate the latter.

Debt is something most all of us have; it's just a question of managing it. And short of a catastrophe, it CAN be managed by balancing what a person needs versus what a person wants, and understanding the necessity of a savings account even when the sun is shining and everybody's flush.

But recognizing that financial institutions are so corrupt as to stack the deck no matter what, I come back to my original conclusion: capitalism doesn't work.

Bird of Prey said:

I I come back to my original conclusion: capitalism doesn't work.

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Captialism worked fine in the country for over 200 years.

Captialism worked fine for a just, moral society. Then morals began to errode. People were trained (and believe me, they were TRAINED) to value things more. They were trained not to save, but to spend, spend, spend!!! (Hey, the World Trade Towers just crashed? Go SHOPPING!) Borrow money! In the "old days" people didn't borrow the way we have in the last 30 years. They borrowed when they had to, they got mortgages on their houses, but they didn't have the credit card crap that we have.

Even the bankers and money folks had morals. They weren't (for the most part - there are alwys exceptions) greedy bastards who would raise the interest rate on someone who already couldn't pay back a loan.

Even our Constitution was set up for a just, moral citizenship. (I can't recall which of our Founding Fathers said it, and I don't feel like looking for the quote right now, but maybe someone else knows.)

When values and morals go down the tube...so does the society.

And...we're there.

Susan G.

The "capitalism" that "doesn't work" is actually corporatism. There's damned little that's free about our markets today, and damned little that happens without government being right in the middle of it. Yet people damn capitalism and look to those same damn crooked politicians to correct the problems with a system that they created in the first place.

Sorry, sometimes it just gets to me. To channel Earl Pitts, "Wake Up, America!"

Susan Gable said:

but they didn't have the credit card crap that we have.

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To expand on that, not only do we have "credit card crap" as you put it, but it's SO ENGRAINED in our society that people can't fathom living and building credit without them!

That's what's pathetic about the whole thing. It's not just that people want to buy things they can't afford, it's that we've been sold this line of bullshit that says we can't live in this country without a credit card.

THAT is the real travesty.

Don said:

The "capitalism" that "doesn't work" is actually corporatism. There's damned little that's free about our markets today, and damned little that happens without government being right in the middle of it. Yet people damn capitalism and look to those same damn crooked politicians to correct the problems with a system that they created in the first place.

Sorry, sometimes it just gets to me. To channel Earl Pitts, "Wake Up, America!"

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Yeah, it's monopolistic and ogopolisitc practices, political corruption, and giving rights to pieces of paper that don't work.