Trying to avoid infodump...

While not everybody is a big fan of a prologue:

Why not make the orders the prologue? Write up something that sounds like an official sounding document. Use character names and their titles as a way to introduce the characters.

Time to hit the library and spend a month reading books that also have complicated world-building involved to see how those writers dealt with avoiding info dumps.

Some did not avoid it, BTW, but you can learn by avoiding what they did!

This is one of those situations where you're gonna have to figure it out for yourself, but you don't have to re-invent the wheel, just your version of it. Study how OTHER word engineers pulled it off!

You might check this book out, The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time by Teresa Patterson. She said once she finished writing about how he built his world she'd learned a ton of stuff she could use for herself.

Yeah, I know it's fantasy, not S.F., but the principles are the same.

Also--hit the 808 section of the library and see if they have Orson Scott Card's book on writing S.F. I think he covered this topic.

Your library should have copies.

If it doesn't check about borrowing through INTER-LIBRARY LOAN. It's free. I've borrowed dozens of books from libraries across the country using that.

Is there any way you can show it?

Do the three orders have some antagonism ( you bloody druids! All that sodding tree worship..yada yada) Or some problem they are all working on that can both reveal their differences while introing the plot?


If you can have a scene that both helps the plot AND can help show these orders, that would be so much better than a dump.

Or..instead of one big chunk, sprinkle a sentence or two here or there - works so much better than one lump of info ( that I usually forget anyway *blush*)

I've found that your readers don't need to know everything that you do. don't want to either.

while I find if fascinating (sarcasm) that in my world there were two demon wars because the second colony misread a four as a seven, my readers don't need to know this. So ask yourself, Is the full of the orders a necessity to know, in order to understand and enjoy the story?

what i suggest is have the person who receives the orders read and then summarize them to his/her second in command. or something like that. you could give a lot of if away by his/her first orders, or hint largely at it.

I actually have a similar problem.

Maybe you should write the first couple of drafts under the assumption that the theoretical reader knows everything. When I did this, there were a lot of places where things naturally explained themselves.

Another thing you could do would be to have a stupid engraving that explains everything. Like:

The Ancient Creed was carved into the white stone of the arch.

The Holders swear the land to keep
The Growers swear the crop to reap
The Death Men swear to bring the sleep

Whatever. That was dumb. You get what I'm saying.

Another possibility is just to leave things out. An order can be complicated without your having to lay everything out.

Anyway, good luck!

In sales, a true pro learns that there's a difference between having enough knowledge to want to buy a product, and having enough knowledge to know how to sell a product.

All your reader needs is enough to buy. You're the only one who needs to know it all.

If you want to introduce information to establish character, then wrap it up in some conflict. If the three characters were army, navy and airforce instead say, and drinking in a bar then you could create conflicts over a failed mission, stolen credit, an intrigue between the forces, or drinking-rights in the bar. Any of these might be enough to establish the forces, their relationships, the characters and their relationships.

(Hopefully though, you have a better establishment locale than just a plain bar.)

Make sure that your premise is sellable. Today's market is not that of yesteryear. Which is not to say that great fiction isn't still written, it just doesn't get published as often. Would Dune or LOTR find publishers today? Probably not. Why? They are long and very heavy on infodump. If it isn't a quick, easy read it may be unappealing to the majority of today's editors and agents. This isn't a complaint but merely an observation and an important factor that you should consider when structuring your story. Not that you shouldn't write your story, but you might restructure it from the standpoint of pacing. I'm not even sure I'd want to read something that requires me to become an expert on an extraterrestrial culture before I was able to understand the plot and characters.

On the other side, consider that you, the author, have been mulling over these orders for a long time. Perhaps years. Things that are important to you will be completely missed by readers and are often not even important to the story. It is a very common mistake for new writers to think that just because they think something is interesting and important, that everyone else will think so too. Believe me, they don't. I wound up with a 400,000 word POS with that approach. Consider the first Star Wars. I'm not sure when the word 'Sith' was introduced but it wasn't in Episode I / IV. All we had was a big, bad dude dressed on black. And at the time that's all we needed. The very fact that we didn't know what he was added to the intrigue - which goes double for Tolkien. I still want to know who those other four wizards were and what happened to them.

I'd echo what MelancholyMan just said about intrigue. You can turn the reader's lack of understanding or puzzlement into a positive thing, making them interested to find out more. And even if they misunderstand the first few chapters, they can come to understand them later in retrospect once they've got the information.

I read one of Erikson's novels recently and (call me slow, but...) I got through about eight chapters before I realised that the MC was a giant and not a human. When I cottoned on, it made sense of some of the things that had puzzled me before. The discovery actually added something to my reading experience, a bit like the reveal at the end of a murder mystery.

But the point was that those first chapters were compelling and readable enough in their own right to keep me reading even if I'd never discovered the extra information.

lukebailey said:

My biggest fear is that a reader (or agent or publisher) will read the first bit of manuscript (if it does get to that point, let it be noted that i have no problem with it never being published) and feel that the work is scrambled and difficult to understand. Worse yet, think that the wizards and druids are the cheapened, generic sort with no unique qualities merely because it is not immediately evident. I feel as though im on a short leash, pages-wise, to make the opposite evident.

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THIS is your problem, I'd say. If your story is interesting ONLY because of the complex background structure, then you're in trouble. Can you start the story in a way that would be compelling even if they really were just cheapened, generic wizards (e.g. with lots of action, powerful interpersonal conflicts between characters etc)? Then when the reader finds out the extra background info it will add to their interest - they might even welcome the infodump at that point and find it positively enjoyable to read, if it makes them think "Aha, so that's what was going on back then".

MelancholyMan said:

Would Dune or LOTR find publishers today? Probably not.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure when the word 'Sith' was introduced but it wasn't in Episode I / IV.

Click to expand...

I think you're wrong on both accounts.

First, Dune has an amazing opening sequence, in which Paul is nearly killed by his sword instructor, to teach him a point about survival, and then is nearly killed by his mother's (a funky nun, it seems) best friend (the head of the evil nuns). This would sell in a heartbeat. It is an immediately compelling, completely engrossing novel.



Second, from the fourth draft of the Star Wars script:

INTERIOR: REBEL BLOCKADE RUNNER -- MAIN HALLWAY.

The awesome, seven-foot-tall Dark Lord of the Sith makes his
way into the blinding light of the main passageway. This is
Darth Vader, right hand of the Emperor.

And later,

Suddenly all heads turn as Commander Tagge's speech is cut
short and the Grand Moff Tarkin, governor of the Imperial
outland regions, enters. He is followed by his powerful ally,
The Sith Lord, Darth Vader.

Of course, here too,

Vader and Ben Kenobi continue their powerful duel. As they hit
their lightsabers together, lightning flashes on impact.
Troopers look on in interest as the old Jedi and Dark Lord of
The Sith fight. Suddenly Luke spots the battle from his
group's vantage point.

I'd say try adn write it without the info dumps, then have someone read it, and see if they understand it. Every book I've read has some info dumps in it, rarely do I see it not done, but placement for that info dump is important so it doesn't disrupt a scene. I'm currently reading the 'Inheritance Triology' by Ian Douglas, and there are large info dumps, but they are done when the reader needs it, and not to disrupt the reading.

I’ve always been of the opinion that unless you are writing a series not use a prologue. That goes for both the David Eddings kind, and the regular ones. If you are writing a stand alone, jump right into the action from chapter one and write through the first draft. Don’t worry about info dumping in the first draft (most everyone info dumps in their first draft), go ahead and finish the story, then let some friends or family members who are familiar with the genre read it. (Make sure that they understand that you want them to be critical of it, and not just some comforting reassuring.) Then, in the second draft clean up the info dumping.

Faced with a similar situation with my first novel, I combined two of the suggested approaches here.

First, I poured the stuff out slowly through the chapter. My goal was that you would be somewhat familiar by the end of the chapter - not the first few pages.

Second, I used a good action scene and introduced things through showing what they did rather than having someone explain it.

Kerry

dclary said:

First, Dune has an amazing opening sequence, in which Paul is nearly killed by his sword instructor, to teach him a point about survival, and then is nearly killed by his mother's (a funky nun, it seems) best friend (the head of the evil nuns). This would sell in a heartbeat. It is an immediately compelling, completely engrossing novel.

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It may be completely compelling and engrossing but it is unlikely the opening sequence would have ever been read.

Dear Super Agent,

DUNE, which is the title of the book is also a desert planet, blah, blah, blah worms, yada, yada, yada spice, this and that.

DUNE is an epic sci-fi set in the distant future and comes in at... 480,000 words! - screeching halt, straight into the reject pile.

Even when it was written it was a long shot and Herbert didn't have to mess with agents. It was first published by Chilton's, better known for car repair manuals! No way in hell it would have been published today, especially since his first novel was a commercial flop.

dclary said:

Second, from the fourth draft of the Star Wars script:

INTERIOR: REBEL BLOCKADE RUNNER -- MAIN HALLWAY.

The awesome, seven-foot-tall Dark Lord of the Sith makes his
way into the blinding light of the main passageway. This is
Darth Vader, right hand of the Emperor.

And later,

Suddenly all heads turn as Commander Tagge's speech is cut
short and the Grand Moff Tarkin, governor of the Imperial
outland regions, enters. He is followed by his powerful ally,
The Sith Lord, Darth Vader.

Of course, here too,

Vader and Ben Kenobi continue their powerful duel. As they hit
their lightsabers together, lightning flashes on impact.
Troopers look on in interest as the old Jedi and Dark Lord of
The Sith fight. Suddenly Luke spots the battle from his
group's vantage point.

Click to expand...

I stand corrected, though I don't think the word Sith is ever used in the movie. I don't think the first use of the word in the movies was until Jedi but I could be wrong. I don't remember about the book - I last read it in like, 1979!

DUNE is an epic sci-fi set in the distant future and comes in at... 480,000 words! - screeching halt, straight into the reject pile.

Click to expand...

Dune is nowhere near 400,000 words, let alone 480,000. I would bet that it was under 300,000.

cubed said:

Dune is nowhere near 400,000 words, let alone 480,000. I would bet that it was under 300,000.

Click to expand...

First three books come in at:

185K
72K
146K

So as individual books, not that long. Pretty short for number two really.

Should I use a prologue? Or should I drain the information in slowly, even if it perhaps damages the understanding and impact of the first few (or dozen) chapters? I have read threads on the subject but its hard to find a way to describe an entire order (or class, as gamer-ish as it sounds), especially the one where even fantasy readers would have a hard time understanding without direct statements.

And I apologize for the format... i cant figure out how to indent [/quote]

Some people like info dumps. I hate them and I avoid expalaining things as far as possible. I think the dreaded phrase 'show don't tell' works best for worldbuilidng of all kinds. Show me how things work and the chances are you won't have to tell me anything. Hierarchies at work are not hard to do.

The other thing to remember is what you need to know to write the book and what the reader needs to know to make the story work are often two different things. Your job is to satisfy the reader (who does not need to know how many notes you have written on the world!) IMHO YMMV