Old People Writing for Teens

Enna said:

Well, I got my synopsis down to 1275. There are some subplots I can't let go of...I mean, what's better than a passionate love affair between two antagonists that claim to hate each other more than they hate the MC? It must be included, succintness be damned.

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You should be fine. I hate hate hate trimming subplots. But I'm sure agents realize our books are much more complex than our synopses makes them seem... Like your query, it's still just a tool to entice them to read more.

Though I think I remember a ktliterary post where Kate Testerman said she only reads synopses if she's going to reject a book without reading on, and is curious what happens in the end.

Red.Ink.Rain said:

the "aluminum war" of the 1990s

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What's that?
I don't think I was paying attention through most of the nineties.

It was basically several massive aluminum companies (whom I believe were involved with the Mafia) fighting over profits and territory and stuff. I don't know - I'll have to look up more about it. It just sounded so much like the beginning of a steampunk novel, lol.

I had never learned about that either! I think poor Russia gets ignored too much in history classes. I like the name of it though - 'aluminum wars'. It sounds so dangerous.

I really, really want to write it now, lol. You have no idea.

Though I think I remember a ktliterary post where Kate Testerman said she only reads synopses if she's going to reject a book without reading on, and is curious what happens in the end.

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This is why I don't know if I could be an agent...I honestly think I would enjoy reading queries and synopses, and I'd waste to much time going through things I knew I wasn't going to take on. Not that I'm saying Ms. Testerman wastes her time!! But I get distracted easily.

I wish I could get a job as a slush pile reader. Maybe I'm nuts, but it sounds fun, and it'd be a great learning experience.

I've never heard of the aluminum wars either, but that does sound cool! I agree, Russia (pretty much all of Asia, actually) gets ignored in history classes. Really, when you think about it, what did you learn in high school history? (For those of you in the U.S.) For me it was mostly European and UK, briefly touched upon, then North American and a HUGE focus (like, a whole freaking school year) on Texas only. You know all those jokes about Texans wanting to secede? Yeah, that's the attitude. I moved there from New Orleans in 7th grade and HATED it so much.

But I digress...my point was, when I moved to Brazil I realized how little I knew about South American history, which is really fascinating. Did most educated Brazilians know their European/U.S. history? Hell yeah. And here in Korea-- I really only knew about the stuff the U.S. was involved in. (Korean war, Japanese imperialism, etc.) None of the hundreds of years of rich Asian history that existed before a single European stepped foot on North American soil. But again, do Koreans know Western history as well as their own? Yup.

That really bugs me. And even the stuff I did study was so warped-- WWII, America as the great world heroes...glossing over the Soviet Union's important role, glossing over our stance on the Holocaust before Pearl Harbor, glossing over our Japanese internment camps...



Ahem.

Sorry.

But I do get frustrated when I see how education works in other countries, and what I, the product of a so-called "Blue Ribbon" American public school, am lacking.

Wow, I really didn't mean to rant like that.

Aaaanyway.....I'm working on cleaning up my first 10 pages, and I'll be sending out 6 more queries today! AND, I got my first rejection! Woot!! I feel like a real writer now.

Enna, you are so awesome -- Korea, Brazil, New Orleans... Where else have you lived?

I totally agree about the ethnocentric scope of h.s. history (and the skewed pov; see Lies My Teacher Told Me). And yet, even with such narrow-minded curriculum, I don't think any of my history classes ever got past the Vietnam war. As with many things school-related, underpaid, dispassionate teachers are a big part of the problem. But the idea of overhauling the system probably seems so intimidating. That touches upon something I intend to cover thematically in my next book: messes so big they're almost impossible to clean up; or at the very least, so costly and overwhelming we proceed with blinders on.

RE: other cultures knowing US history, I'm always aware of that when I travel. In fact, yesterday I shared a cab to the airport with two South Africans (one an aspiring writer!) and that topic came up. Even in Belize, they diligently followed the US elections. In Cambodia, the beggar kids knew US capitals. I don't even know all the US capitals. It's humbling. And embarrassing.

P.S. I'll get your pages back to you this weekend. going to bed now... I'm sure the thread will explode while I sleep!

In my college American history class, we did a lot of study about the Japanese internment camps. It was heartbreaking.

Yeah, I actually found that in college, there was a lot less skimming over of the details than in high school. I always loved European history way more than American history, though. I had/have a small obsession with the Civil War and the Revolutionary War, but other than that, I'm just not that into American history haha.

South America definitely has some wicked cool history too that gets ignored, and I don't think I've ever found a class that really goes into it. In middle school, we learned about the Incas & the Aztecs and all of that, but it never really gets done again, and the ancient civilizations in South America are so cool! I also wish Egypt got more time, because I love their ancient culture too.

Hey quick question for you guys...
When separating chapters, there's usually that break in scene where you can feel it's time to end it (whether it be a mini-cliffhanger, or small resolution) But here's the problem I'm having. Most of my first few chapters are running around 3k a piece. Is that too long for YA? Because after chpt 6 I could cut most of them to around 2k and still have a good solid chpt. But suffering from some nitpicky-ness syndrome, I like them to all be around the same length. Should I bother shortening them later or is 3k perfectly acceptable for YA?

Wandergirl: Brazil, Korea, New Orleans, and...Texas. Yeehaw. Well, and I stayed in Trinidad for six weeks a few years ago to play with a steel band for Carnival, but I don't know if that counts as "living" there. Teaching ESL is fun because you can travel and actually make money. But I think my husband and I are ready to not be foreigners for a little while. We're actually planning on moving to NYC in the fall, that's why I was so excited when you said you were visiting! Did you have fun?

"Proceeding with blinders on..." YESYESYES. I taught in the American public school system for four years. The answer the boys in charge keep pushing is standardized testing. It. Is. A. Joke. Never mind it's not working. Never mind kids are learning test-taking strategies and not actual material. Just keep pushing that one damn test.

When I was 23 I played a game of World Trivial Pursuit with my 15 year old cousin from Scotland. He slaughtered me- him halfway through high school in Glasgow, me with a college degree from a major Texas university. It was a little embarrassing.

Take your time on the pages, no rush!

Kaitlin, my college history classes were a little bit better too. I blame myself for not getting a little more into it-- I just wasn't as interested then. Right now I'm pretty obsessed with the early 1900's...not sure why, but it's really fun to read about. European history is definitely cool-- really gritty and complex. (Not like all history isn't gritty and complex...but Europe seems especially that way to me. )

When separating chapters, there's usually that break in scene where you can feel it's time to end it (whether it be a mini-cliffhanger, or small resolution) But here's the problem I'm having. Most of my first few chapters are running around 3k a piece. Is that too long for YA? Because after chpt 6 I could cut most of them to around 2k and still have a good solid chpt. But suffering from some nitpicky-ness syndrome, I like them to all be around the same length. Should I bother shortening them later or is 3k perfectly acceptable for YA?

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Honestly, if I'm reading a really good book I don't really notice how long the chapters are! I think 3k is fine. In my YA I decided to have each scene be its own chapter. The longest is almost 3k and the shortest is like 800.

What does everyone else think?

I agree. Some of my chapters are longer than that, though I'd like to make them a little shorter (I'll have to rearrange when I'm through). But 3k is really not that long.

And Enna, it's awesome how much you've moved around! I'm such a homebody. I grew up in New Hampshire, went to college in Ithaca, NY, and now live in southern Connecticut. That's it for where I've lived!

I love New England, though. It's great here.

My mom is a teacher, she does fifth and sixth grade at a really small school (she was actually my teacher when I was that age, in fourth, fifth, AND sixth. She moved to teaching fifth/sixth language arts and social studies the same year that I went to fifth grade...she followed me!) It's starting to really wear on her, I think. Because parents are just not as involved as they used to be (in general. Obviously there's still some good ones!) It must be so exhausting to try to teach kids when it's like they just don't care.

So...I started my Moscow story. The one I told myself I wouldn't start. *head/desk* I wrote a short synopsis/outline for it, too. So right now it's actually my most thought-out WIP. *sigh*

My imagination is ridiculously unpredictable.

Indus: In both my books, the longest chapters are about 3k words, and the shortest are about 1500. I just make sure they're pretty evenly dispersed. And that the super-short chapters and super-long chapters are at least somewhat pivotal. I type the word-count in the chapter headers so I can keep track while I write.

I'm not obsessed with any particular point in history (though dytopian futures keep creeping into my reading), but I did go through a phase at age 11 where I was obsessed with the bubonic plague. No lie, I read everything I could get my hands on. I even considered reading the Decameron, but it was a little advanced. It stemmed from reading this out-of-print book: http://www.bookfaerie.com/si/013102.html

RE: Incas - I might be visiting Peru in September! Going to attempt the Machu Picchu trek.

Ahhhh, I used to be obsessed with the bubonic plague too.

And JEALOUS. I would love to go there.

you will!!!

One day. Once my boyfriend gets back into shape, maybe he'll be more willing...

Oooh Peru. There are sooo many places I want to go.

kaitlin008 said:

One day. Once my boyfriend gets back into shape, maybe he'll be more willing...

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lolol
I will so need to work out for months beforehand... I can just see myself fainting on some mountain pass. Or overdosing on coca leaves!

I'm actually going with my best friend, but my husband's not super-thrilled with the idea; not because he's worried, but because he wants to go. Travel's always about time vs. money. When we have the time, we're broke, & vice versa. I have the time... (yay self-employment), but I make significantly less money than him, so I feel kind of guilty taking off.

ETA: Chanelly, sweet request rate!!

ETA 2: You know what they eat in Peru? http://images.google.com/images?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=cuy&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi (only click if you're not squeamish)

thanks for easing my fears on the chpt word counts guys

Aw. I feel horribly boring lol. When I was younger, I was just obsessed with reading classics. I loved History class, but I have the WORST memory ever. It's downright embarrassing sometimes. (I think having a kid made it worse lol) But I can't remember dates of Wars, countries involved, etc. I do know while we're over here we plan on visiting some concentration camps and I'm oddly excited and scared at the same time. I can only imagine what kind of heaviness is going to be floating around there and I'll probably break into tears the second we get out of the car. But it's such an intense part of history, it'd be wrong to not take the opportunity.

Thanks, Wander. My query or storyline must be working. Now to get my partial working! And then hopefully I'll have an agent offer like you

Indus said:

Aw. I feel horribly boring lol. When I was younger, I was just obsessed with reading classics. I loved History class, but I have the WORST memory ever. It's downright embarrassing sometimes. (I think having a kid made it worse lol) But I can't remember dates of Wars, countries involved, etc. I do know while we're over here we plan on visiting some concentration camps and I'm oddly excited and scared at the same time. I can only imagine what kind of heaviness is going to be floating around there and I'll probably break into tears the second we get out of the car. But it's such an intense part of history, it'd be wrong to not take the opportunity.

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Yes! My memory was abysmal when I was pregnant, and right after the baby was born. It seems to be better again now, but for a while it was SO embarrassing!

And I've always wanted to see concentration camps too, but I think it would be really upsetting. I have no personal ties, but it's still so scary that it even could happen, and so horrible.

I'm missing out on a great conversation!

My thing with history is that I love learning about what real people were doing - and that isn't focused on. It's all 'learn this date, learn the name of this battle'. yuck yuck yuck. But I'll remember the time period if I understand what the women were doing at the time - women suddenly going into the factories? Oh, yeah, that was WWI and II. And if I remember that, I can remember the most important things that happened during the wars even if I don't know the exact dates. All the major events in history affected real, individual lives and THAT is what is most interesting to me.

Geography I do love. Places and structures and artifacts and such. I haven't been further south than Mexico (lame, I know) although I did spend a summer exploring London and Paris (and environs) - amazing!! My brother spent some time in Guatemala and raves about it. I'd like to get down to see the Mayan ruins. Well, I'd like to get a whole lotta places to see a whole lotta things !

If anyone needs a travel partner . . .

Indus said:

I do know while we're over here we plan on visiting some concentration camps and I'm oddly excited and scared at the same time. I can only imagine what kind of heaviness is going to be floating around there and I'll probably break into tears the second we get out of the car. But it's such an intense part of history, it'd be wrong to not take the opportunity.

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Do go. I have visited Auschwitz/Birkenau and sobering is not the word to describe it. I suspect it might have *more* of an effect on me now than it did then (1991) as I know more about WW2 now than I did, and also nothing is sharper than a sense that if you were born in a different country at a different time, this could have happened to you. Auschwitz is barred, sensibly, to the under-thirteens, but anyone old enough should visit IMO.

Auschwitz is now a museum - there's also a cafe and a hotel (yikes) on site. Birkenau, three kilometres up the road, has been left much the same as it was when it was liberated. One detail brought it home to me - the wooden bunks where prisoners slept. They are the size of a modern double bed. Twelve prisoners slept on each.

I went to a museum in Israel that had remakes of the concentration camps and also loads of things from that era. It was one of the most interesting and horrific places I've ever been to. Just to see what they had to go through...