Non-Christian characters and profanity in YA fiction

Status
Not open for further replies.

Barb D

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Messages
619
Reaction score
91
Location
Maryland
Website
bqdell.blogspot.com
My YA MCs are Joy, an conservative Christian 16yo and Polly, an atheist 15yo. They time travel to an alternate reality 1526 Denmark, and interact with the characters from Hamlet. Polly's brother Will comes after them.

The limit of Joy's exclamatory words are "Oh My Gosh," but Polly does swear. Much to my own 15yo (atheist) daughter's chagrin, I've limited Polly's profane vocabulary to what you could hear on network TV. My daughter says that if she got her period in 1526 Denmark, as Polly does, she would say a much stronger word than "crap."

I know that current YA literature DOES use stronger language than that, but I want the book to be accessible to Christian kids too. I'm really making an effort to portray all sides fairly and positively.

That said, I've come across an occasion where a stronger profanity really does seem to fit.

The question is -- do you read, and would you allow your teens to read books with profanity? Where do you draw the line? If a book had the F word in it (uttered by a non-Christian character in a non-offhand manner) would that make it off limits? What about the more minor profanity (the kind you would hear on TV?)

Here is the passage in question, with the word in question blanked out:

“So much heartache,” Polly whispered. “Are there any happily-ever-afters here?”

“Not in Hamlet,” Will said. “Pretty much everybody dies.”

“Even Ophelia?”

He nodded.

“This has to stop. We have to stop it.”

“Pol, I don’t think we can. It’s the way it was written.”

“____ the way it was written!” Tears were flowing down her cheeks. “We can’t let this happen. It hasn’t happened yet. There must be some way of stopping it.”
 

dirtsider

Not so new, really
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
2,056
Reaction score
166
Kids today, Christian and non-Christian, hear worse things than "fudge" or 'crap' on a daily basis. I would think that the milder profanity would be more jarring since it's not part of their daily life, unless it's a matter of personal choice as you mentioned for your Christian MC. Having the stronger terms aren't going to throw your Christian readers into seizures if it's done in a moment of passion, particularly if the character speaking it is a non-Christian. I think your Christian readers are stronger than is given credit for. It's not like your MC's are cursing every other word.
 

Barb D

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Messages
619
Reaction score
91
Location
Maryland
Website
bqdell.blogspot.com
Kids today, Christian and non-Christian, hear worse things than "fudge" or 'crap' on a daily basis. I would think that the milder profanity would be more jarring since it's not part of their daily life, unless it's a matter of personal choice as you mentioned for your Christian MC. Having the stronger terms aren't going to throw your Christian readers into seizures if it's done in a moment of passion, particularly if the character speaking it is a non-Christian. I think your Christian readers are stronger than is given credit for. It's not like your MC's are cursing every other word.

I'm not as much worried about the readers themselves as their parents. I've been in the homeschooling community where among the most conservative even the Little House books were taboo because, while Laura obeyed Pa, she was rebellious in her heart. I'm not making this up.

I don't know how much the average Christian parent censors their teens' reading. I don't much at all; my sister won't allow her younger teens to see even PG movies if they have anything at all questionable in them.

I wouldn't be marketing this as a Christian book, but I don't want to cut off a segment of readership I think it would appeal to. (Hey, I've got predestination in there!)
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,934
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
As a teen I was good friends with girls who were Jehovah's Witness and Christidelphinian. Although I was athiest I did not swear in front of them, especially blasphemies, out of respect for their beleifs.
 

dirtsider

Not so new, really
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
2,056
Reaction score
166
I'm not as much worried about the readers themselves as their parents. I've been in the homeschooling community where among the most conservative even the Little House books were taboo because, while Laura obeyed Pa, she was rebellious in her heart. I'm not making this up.

I don't know how much the average Christian parent censors their teens' reading. I don't much at all; my sister won't allow her younger teens to see even PG movies if they have anything at all questionable in them.

I wouldn't be marketing this as a Christian book, but I don't want to cut off a segment of readership I think it would appeal to. (Hey, I've got predestination in there!)

If you're not marketing as a Christian book, then go ahead and put the word in there. It's just the one time, correct? If you don't feel comfortable in putting in there, then don't. If there's a segment that is going to take exception to one swear word, I'm sure they're going to take even more of an exception to the fact that one of the main characters is an atheist or some other reason. YMMV, though.

I just get annoyed sometimes that people think they need to candycoat everything when the word Christian comes up. But that's just me. Yes, there are some who censor things the way you mentioned but not every Christian is like that. If you have a good story and tell it well, I'm sure that a parent who is concerned enough to look at what their children are reading are either going to be open to discussion or not allow the book in their house no matter what you do. Like I said, kids hear a lot more than most people realize. I wouldn't swear in front of someone I respected and knew didn't like profanity but I realize it's out there too. And it's also geared toward Young Adults and not Beginners or MG, so your target audience is even more likely to hear profanity, no matter how hard their parents try to censor things, if only from their friends when their parents aren't around.

But it comes down to, what you, the author, feel comfortable with and what is right for the character.
 
Last edited:

swpauthor

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
78
Reaction score
5
If you're not marketing as a Christian book, then go ahead and put the word in there. It's just the one time, correct? If you don't feel comfortable in putting in there, then don't. If there's a segment that is going to take exception to one swear word, I'm sure they're going to take even more of an exception to the fact that one of the main characters is an atheist or some other reason. YMMV, though.

I just get annoyed sometimes that people think they need to candycoat everything when the word Christian comes up. But that's just me. Yes, there are some who censor things the way you mentioned but not every Christian is like that. If you have a good story and tell it well, I'm sure that a parent who is concerned enough to look at what their children are reading are either going to be open to discussion or not allow the book in their house no matter what you do. Like I said, kids hear a lot more than most people realize. I wouldn't swear in front of someone I respected and knew didn't like profanity but I realize it's out there too. And it's also geared toward Young Adults and not Beginners or MG, so your target audience is even more likely to hear profanity, no matter how hard their parents try to censor things, if only from their friends when their parents aren't around.

But it comes down to, what you, the author, feel comfortable with and what is right for the character.

I agree with dirtsider. Whatever is right for the character, is what you should include. That being said, if you are trying to reach a christian audience, you will succeed--or not--based on the quality of your writing and the integrity of your characters (not moral integrity, necessarily, but being "real.") Four letter words are a part of our human experience--no amount of censorship will change that. I think the strong language will not be an issue unless you are trying to persuade a Christian book publisher to publish your work with obvious profanity throughout. If it's a matter of your own personal preference in trying to keep the language "clean" then you could try to come up with a creative alternative. Not all atheists talk foul, you know. Even in their most heated moments, they might not "swear like sailors," even if they are teenagers! Throwing in a four-letter word to convey strong emotion is often over-used in my opinion--to the point of being trite.
 

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,499
Location
West Michigan
Well, if you're trying to sell it to a CBA publisher to stock it in "Christian" bookstores, not only should your characters not swear, your non-Christian characters should become Christians by the end of the book. That's the realities of Christian fiction publishing.

If, however, you are marketing to the broader secular market, you have more flexibility.

Of course, it's always possible to say "She swore" or something similar. Yes, it's telling, but that's not always a flaw. I think it's preferable to using an unrealisticly sanitized swear word. The user can then insert their own to their own comfort level.
 

windyrdg

New kid, be gentle!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Messages
526
Reaction score
89
Location
So Oregon Coast looking at the ocean
Website
capearagopress.com
YA has apparently gotten pretty racy. I was snooping around the library recently and picked a book off their recommended new read rack for teenagers. Flipping through it, I found that it had group sex in it! What has the world come to?

As to your question. Why not have your characters swear in 16th century terms? Shakespeare has lots of swearing and sexual innuendos that many people don't even recognize. Same for Chaucer, though he's a little more blatant. If you haven't read any of Diana Gabaldon's books, you might try one. She gets into the vernacular pretty well. You can also invent your own words that sound like 16th century terms.

Off the top of my head; "The Archbishop's arse we can't change the way its written!
 

Cyia

Rewriting My Destiny
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Messages
18,645
Reaction score
4,100
Location
Brillig in the slithy toves...
Keep in mind not only your audience, but your time period. Swearing - espcially by or in front of women - in the 16th century carried legal rammifications. As did being openly Athiest. It depends on the laws of the local area, but it was still there in the culture.
 

courtneyv

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
202
Reaction score
21
Location
New England
Website
cvwriter.wordpress.com
Keep in mind not only your audience, but your time period. Swearing - espcially by or in front of women - in the 16th century carried legal rammifications. As did being openly Athiest. It depends on the laws of the local area, but it was still there in the culture.

They're time traveling teens though. I'm sure they're unaware of what was conventional in the day, plus it's an alternate reality, kind of like in Sliders I'm guessing, so that society's rules can be whatever the author dreams up.
 

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,499
Location
West Michigan
They're time traveling teens though. I'm sure they're unaware of what was conventional in the day, plus it's an alternate reality, kind of like in Sliders I'm guessing, so that society's rules can be whatever the author dreams up.
Well, yes and no. You can certainly write anything you want. In order to be published, however, you have to write what readers will accept, or more precisely, what a publisher thinks readers will accept. In the case of CBA publishers, that range is quite narrow.
 

courtneyv

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
202
Reaction score
21
Location
New England
Website
cvwriter.wordpress.com
I wasn't referring to content, I was addressing Cyia's comment about what's acceptable in a time period/culture. Barb D said her teens travel to an alternate reality. That society's rules don't have to line up with ours, past or present.

I don't believe the F-word would be accepted in CBA. If it is, I haven't come across it.
 

Alex Bravo

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 16, 2006
Messages
193
Reaction score
13
Location
Austin, Texas
You could always use she cursed. But if it's a big deal, make it a big deal in your book. I like Cyia's idea. Great fiction makes interesting characters and drops them into tons of trouble. I could easily see modern day kids getting in trouble without meaning to.
 

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,499
Location
West Michigan
I wasn't referring to content, I was addressing Cyia's comment about what's acceptable in a time period/culture. Barb D said her teens travel to an alternate reality. That society's rules don't have to line up with ours, past or present.
No, but they do have to line up with what the readers will accept.

As a reader, I would have trouble believing a culture that is similar in almost all respects to 16th Century England would have a modern view of -- say -- the role of women. In creating an alternate reality, the writer can't just make up whatever he or she wants.

Well, she can, but if readers won't accept it -- or more importantly -- if publishers don't think readers will accept it, the story will never be published.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.