Few questions about the real Wild West...

Goodchild

Screaming Audio Terror
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 29, 2009
Messages
264
Reaction score
18
Location
Scunthorpe, UK. "The industrial garden town of th
Website
theycallmepotato.blogspot.com
I thought about popping this in the 'research' section but after reading a few of the posts in this bit, this seems like the best place for it...I'm working on an idea for a Western, but had a few (possibly obvious) questions.

1) Did towns with names like 'Desperation' and 'Hell's Creek', etc, really exist, or is that something perpetrated (I can't think of the correct word/spelling) by movies?

2) What years were the 'golden age' of the Wild West?

3) I've read on here about the language used by cowboys - would excessive swearing (really foul language, by one character only) be realistic, or too over the top/modern? And were the 's' word and 'f' word common enough to use often (in the context of this sweary character)?

4) Was racism a concept some cowboys would have understood, even if they didn't call it 'racism'?

There's nothing worse than reading a book by someone who's impressed modern sensibilites upon an older time, and that's a trap I *hope* I can avoid...

edit: was 'goon' a word used by cowboys? I don't want to refer to a hired henchman as that if it's not 'true'...
 
Last edited:

MaryMumsy

the original blond bombshell
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
3,396
Reaction score
829
Location
Scottsdale, Arizona
I'm no expert, but...

1) Those kinds of names were for real. And lots were even stranger than that.

2) AFIK no one has come up with a definitive answer. If you stay between 1865 and 1885 you would be safe.

3) Swearing, I don't have a clue

4) I recall reading (don't know where) that many of the 'cowboys' were black. Most likely racism would have been more of an issue in towns rather than on the ranches or the trail.

Hope that helps. And maybe some one else who has more hard knowledge will come along and chime in.

MM
 

KHCho

Registered
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
13
Reaction score
1
Location
Tucson
1) Did towns with names like 'Desperation' and 'Hell's Creek', etc, really exist, or is that something perpetrated (I can't think of the correct word/spelling) by movies?
I believe these are real names.

2) What years were the 'golden age' of the Wild West?
IMO, it depends on what you're looking for. Some could say the golden years were during the fur trade (think mountainmen like Bridger). Others would say before the US Civil War (gold strike of '49) until the telegraph made its way west. How about the railroad? Cattle drives? Open range? Range wars? Firearms? Samuel Colt's Patterson Revolver was a huge influence in Texas.

3) I've read on here about the language used by cowboys - would excessive swearing (really foul language, by one character only) be realistic, or too over the top/modern? And were the 's' word and 'f' word common enough to use often (in the context of this sweary character)?
It's my understanding that almost every other word began with the letter "f". I'd quickly grow weary of reading that kind of dialog, however.

4) Was racism a concept some cowboys would have understood, even if they didn't call it 'racism'?
Racism was rampant, even though approximately 1/3 of the males were negro.
Edited to add: There was also a large population of Chinese who came over to get rich on gold. They likewise were treated as second-class citizens.

There's nothing worse than reading a book by someone who's impressed modern sensibilites upon an older time, and that's a trap I *hope* I can avoid...
Great idea, IMO. I hope you can capture this ideal in your work. One thing that strikes me is that people back then were poor beyond modern imagination. Look at someone who's been homeless for a few years - most people out west back then were much worse off.

edit: was 'goon' a word used by cowboys? I don't want to refer to a hired henchman as that if it's not 'true'...
Don't know, but I'm sure if you peruse period newspapers you'd discover if they did.

Disclaimer: I'm not an historian, nor do I play one on television.
 
Last edited:

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
9,907
Reaction score
1,834
Location
Hiding in my writing cave
Website
www.cathyclamp.com
I did a great deal of research in Colorado for my first book, an historical set during the railroad days (1885-1887).

1) Did towns with names like 'Desperation' and 'Hell's Creek', etc, really exist, or is that something perpetrated (I can't think of the correct word/spelling) by movies?

Yep. Generally, they'd start out as names of mining camps with those names. If the town was settled by settlers from the east, you'll find more names like "Sunset" or "Meadowbrook" Darned women's influences!

2) What years were the 'golden age' of the Wild West?

1880 to 1900 in most western states. In some places, you had cowboys in early autos instead of horses and wagons. But for the TRUE Golden age, you're talking 1880 to 1885.

3) I've read on here about the language used by cowboys - would excessive swearing (really foul language, by one character only) be realistic, or too over the top/modern? And were the 's' word and 'f' word common enough to use often (in the context of this sweary character)?

Oh, good lord YES! But only amongst men. If you have a woman in the room, you'll often have guys punching a swearing man in the arm for saying a word that would "sully a lady's ears." That's how a lot of the weird curses like "Dadblameit" and "Son of a Gun!" came about. :ROFL:

4) Was racism a concept some cowboys would have understood, even if they didn't call it 'racism'?

Most everybody was prejudiced in some way, but a lot depended on the background of the character in question. Northerns were horribly prejudiced against Chinese and Irish, while Southerners were racist in the traditional white/black way. Now, if a person was BORN in the west, they often prided themselves on "not taking sides in that fight" (Civil War stuff). But Chinese were still the lowest of the low--even lower than blacks.

There's nothing worse than reading a book by someone who's impressed modern sensibilites upon an older time, and that's a trap I *hope* I can avoid...

A laudible sentiment. Fortunately, there are tons of books around from the time. It'll be the little things that will get you with readers though. Those who follow a particular time period are SCATHING in errors they find.

edit: was 'goon' a word used by cowboys? I don't want to refer to a hired henchman as that if it's not 'true'...

It might be an adjective used by someone like a shopkeeper or general citizen who was being bullied. But generally he was considered a "man" or "gun." Like: "Yep, that's Johnson's man" or "There's Bob Smith's new gun." More than hired help, but just SLIGHTLY less than a gunslinger. Only slightly. Most gunslingers that weren't robbers worked for a ranch as a hired gun.

Hope that helps! Good luck with it. :)
 

Puma

Retired and loving it!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
7,340
Reaction score
1,535
Location
Central Ohio
Hi Goodchild - my answers to your questions -

1) Did towns with names like 'Desperation' and 'Hell's Creek', etc, really exist -

Yes - towns and places - and there were some even stranger. You can probably find some by Googling the name with the word town in the search.

2) What years were the 'golden age' of the Wild West? -

"By definition, a classic Western is set in the period from 1860 to 1890. The definition can be stretched to go back to the Alamo (1836) or up to the Mexican Revolution in 1920."

3) I've read on here about the language used by cowboys - would excessive swearing (really foul language, by one character only) be realistic, or too over the top/modern? And were the 's' word and 'f' word common enough to use often (in the context of this sweary character)?

There have been several threads in this forum about language. The classic westerns did not use four letter words - at all. No foul language. No S or F words. You have to figure out another way to show temper, displeasure, etc.

4) Was racism a concept some cowboys would have understood, even if they didn't call it 'racism'?

Many of the men who went west had fought in the Civil War. That fact alone should answer your question.

On Chinese - the railroads imported them by the thousands for cheap labor.

You also asked whether "goon" was a word used by cowboys - I don't think so, but it's not impossible. It sounds to me like you ought to do some reading of classic westerns and maybe even watch a few television shows from back in the 60's and 70's. There were a lot of good ones.

Hope those answers help. Puma
 
Last edited:

Goodchild

Screaming Audio Terror
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 29, 2009
Messages
264
Reaction score
18
Location
Scunthorpe, UK. "The industrial garden town of th
Website
theycallmepotato.blogspot.com
Thanks everybody. I used to really like watching and reading Westerns (I'm named after John Wayne and was almost named after Clint Eastwood :D) but got more into horror as I got older, so I'm really looking forward to making a start on some proper research back into the wild west.
 

Pilot

Commander Tiberius
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,124
Reaction score
318
Location
In my own little world.
1) Did towns with names like 'Desperation' and 'Hell's Creek', etc, really exist, or is that something perpetrated (I can't think of the correct word/spelling) by movies?

Just north of Houston (where my home is) we have a town called Cut 'N Shoot. Further north and closer to the LA border is the town my grandmother was born in, Blackjack. Texas is full of such examples.

2) What years were the 'golden age' of the Wild West?

Agree with the others about the 1880 period. Ranching began in earnest prior to the Civil War and the golden age was pretty well wound down by 1900.

3) I've read on here about the language used by cowboys - would excessive swearing (really foul language, by one character only) be realistic, or too over the top/modern? And were the 's' word and 'f' word common enough to use often (in the context of this sweary character)?

Perhaps on the open range, though that kind of language was not the norm, according to traditions within my family. (I grew up on a working cattle ranch/farm in the 1940s & 50s)

4) Was racism a concept some cowboys would have understood, even if they didn't call it 'racism'?

People in that time didn't really think of it as racism. That's a modern term in common usage. These people (mostly) grew up with the concept of slavery as a norm and so didn't pay much attention to the few like John Brown. The Chinese were looked on as little better than slaves, so they all got lumped into the status of second class people as a norm in that cultural era.

edit: was 'goon' a word used by cowboys? I don't want to refer to a hired henchman as that if it's not 'true'...

Not sure on this one. I thought 'goon' was a Hollywood invention, but could easily be wrong.
 

Cav Guy

Living in the backstory
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 14, 2006
Messages
809
Reaction score
146
Location
Montana - About a century too late
I'm only going to touch on the "Golden Age of the West" question, since the others have been covered pretty well.

It really depends on what you're covering, to be honest. 1880 is actually pretty late for some parts of the West. The era of the great trail drives was fairly short and focused mostly in the 1870s...at least in terms of drives from Texas to the Kansas railheads. There was a second wave that saw herds moving from Texas and other southern ranges to Montana, but the winter of 1886-87 really crippled the cattle industry in Montana. For the Southwest, there's a great deal going on pretty much any time after 1866 or so. Same with Texas and Kansas. What's now South Dakota didn't really open up until after 1875, while western and southwestern Montana saw some significant development prior to the Civil War. Nevada also had activity prior to 1866, and of course California was a going concern well before that.

Short answer - pick your setting and you'll find a different "golden age" for each one.

Goon isn't a word you'd see them use. Toughs was one, although Boweries was also common (a reference to a section of New York City known for its gangs).
 

Reckoner

Registered
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
16
Reaction score
2
Location
Harrisonburg, VA.
May I piggyback this thread?

I have a question or two of my own about the West. Soon (here's hoping for quite soon) I'm going to kick off a story that takes place in the area. The characters will have traveled from Kansas through Oklahoma, dipping briefly into Texas's western edge, and end in New Mexico. The timeframe we're looking at here is the Dust Bowl era -- sometime between 1933 and 1936, I'd say.

Now, since the Golden Age of the Wild West ended in the 1880s (this thread has been an informative blessing, really), what sort of West would I be contending with? What would towns be like? How densely populated would this area be? Would horses still be a viable means of transportation in the face of the available technological advances in travel?

General information in that vein would be gratefully accepted, and with much thanks given in return.
 

Puma

Retired and loving it!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
7,340
Reaction score
1,535
Location
Central Ohio
Hi Reckoner - There's a lot of information available in books and on line on the dust bowl period. But I'll give you my take on some of your questions.

There would have been some automobiles and pickup trucks, but horses were still in use. I'm in Ohio out in the country and there were still horses being used here for agriculture and even transportation in the early 1940's.

There are jokes about western towns you could spit from one end to the other. I first traveled in the west in 1958, southwest in 1959 and most towns were still very small - one main street with a few stores, many with falsefronts and board walks along the main street, and that was about all. Some were even smaller - a filling station and a house at a crossroads. In 1962 Carson City, Nevada, the state capital, was about two blocks long. In 1964 Santa Fe, New Mexico was almost hidden from view as you approached - the tallest building was the five story adobe La Fonda Hotel.

Even in the late 50's and 60's there wasn't much population. It was common to see signs "last gas for 100 miles". There was more development along major truck routes like Route 66, but other places - lonesomeness for miles and miles. One of the necessities for automobile travel was a desert waterbag, usually carried straped onto the front of the car somewhere for almost guaranteed boiling overs. We always carried a three gallon thermos for human consumption too - and needed it.

Trains were very important arteries through the west - check the ATSF and Southern Pacific routes through the territory you're looking at. The Santa Fe is also famous for its Harvey Girls and I'm pretty sure Harvey Houses along their route. I took the Santa Fe to New Mexico back in 1964 and it was still romantic. The stop for Santa Fe was in Lamy, New Mexico - none in Santa Fe itself.

Many of the early towns were along the railroad. There'd be cattle yards for holding the cattle prior to shipping on the railroads (I remember the one in Dodge City when I went through), possibly grain elevators (more in Kansas), there'd be needed items from the steam days - water tanks suspended above and beside the tracks for refilling (still there in 1964). It wasn't unusual to see antelope racing along beside the train.

Hope those thoughts give you some help. It's a neat area to write about. Puma
 
Last edited:

MaryMumsy

the original blond bombshell
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
3,396
Reaction score
829
Location
Scottsdale, Arizona
One of the best books about the dust bowl era is 'The Worst Hard Time' by Timothy(?) Egan. There was also a recent documentary on the History Channel called 'Black Blizzard'. Well worth watching. My mother's people were from Kansas and Oklahoma in that era. Her Grandpa had a car, but most people didn't. As a side note, out here in AZ we don't consider KS and OK to be 'the west', but maybe that's just us. :D

MM
 

PattiTheWicked

Unleashing Hell.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 15, 2005
Messages
3,999
Reaction score
1,249
Website
www.pattiwigington.com
Regarding the word "goon": it would not have been used in the 19th century American west. It first appeared in the 1920s, and was used to mean a person who was stupid, or an oaf. Later, it was a word used to apply to the big, strong (and typically not very bright) men who were hired by management to break up labor brawls in the 1930s and 1940s. Today, it's still used in this context, as someone who is a thug or brute.

In some rural areas of England, the word "gooney" is used to refer to a simpleton, but it's unlikely that this would have carried over. I've also read that the 1920s usage stems from a Hindu word, "gunda", which means basically a hired enforcer. This was misspelled in a British newspaper around 1920, as "goondah", so it could be the source of the current usage.

Either way, you wouldn't find it in the 1880s American west. On the other hand, as was mentioned above, there's no reason you couldn't refer to a character as a "hired gun," rahter than a "hired goon" :)