Beta Question's

Your posting looked lonely, so do you mind if I answer from a beta reader's perspective?

*Pudge* said:

Hi,

I was just wondering about a few aspects and wondered if anyone can help.

I don't have any beta's currently.

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For me, I would only want to beta someone's work once they were sure it was good enough to start querying agents with it. For myself, it would be a complete waste of my time beta reading something in the early stages, because I know it would change vastly before it has its final draft.

*Pudge* said:

1. At what stage does one source beta readers?

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You look on the beta board and see who has offered to beta read for others; if they look like they might be interested in your kind of work, then you send them a private message and ask them.

If I see something on these boards that I think I'd like to beta read, then I offer my services via a PM.

*Pudge* said:

2. How do you choose suitable beta readers? (suitable for each of you)

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PMs, email if possible and even on these boards.

*Pudge* said:

3. How do you corresponde with a beta?

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That's up to you, isn't it. Some people don't like to let out their work to too many at once; some people want as much feedback as possible.

*Pudge* said:

4. Is it best to have numerous beta readers?

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^

If you split up your work, the readers, who didn't have the beginning of your work, would be lost. How would they know what was happening, plots etc? How would they know your voice?
I would personally only ever beta read for someone if I can have the whole MS; part of an MS wouldn't interest me.

*Pudge* said:

5. If so should you split the load or have each read the entire M.S to obtain different perspectives?

Thank you in advance.

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Maryn said:

I'll stop beta-ing cold on the second spelling error, which proves the author hasn't put in the full effort.

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I disagree with this. I think an author should have the ms as polished as possible, but I do not think that two spelling errors are an indication that the author hasn't put in a full effort.

My last ms had, I believe, six typos. At some point, you've read your own work so many times that you start to miss things.

*Pudge* said:

I'd sort of like someone I've known (in the cyber sense) for a little while. Not sure why.

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Completely understandable. It's a very personal (and serious) thing. I was fortunate enough to have three people I knew in person offer to beta.

Unfortunate, none of them read much in the genre I'm currently working. I may have to find new betas and it's a slightly scary thing (one of the reasons I was so glad to see your post).

Maryn said:

Oh, absolutely. The eye sees what it expects to be there, not what is. Please note, though, that I said "spelling errors," which a spell checker would have caught. Finding two indicates the author did not run spell check, which I consider pretty basic.

Maryn, stickler

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Oh that's perfectly understandable. Sorry!

Kathleen, who once wrote about a characters "man books" and a pizza whihc needed to go in the "over"

Maryn said:

Please note, though, that I said "spelling errors," which a spell checker would have caught. Finding two indicates the author did not run spell check, which I consider pretty basic.

Maryn, stickler

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Not necessarily. You have to be careful with spell checkers. Sometimes they mark words wrong that are spelled right because that word isn't in their database or whatever. Sometimes they miss words because the misspelling actually turned it into a different word (which is still a word, so not caught such as accidentally turning deaf into dead).

As for my take on beta readers, I'm going to disagree with the assertion that you need to have gone through a lot of drafts before giving the manuscript to a beta. I finished my last novel, combed through it to get rid of as many spelling and grammar errors as I could find, smooth out sentences I noticed seemed awkward, and fix obvious inconsistencies, but I made no major changes. I just wanted it to read well enough that a reader could focus on story rather than spelling. Then I handed over this second draft to be beta read and I'm so glad I did. It really helped me to get a good understanding of what needed to be improved and what worked well within the story. Now I'm working on revisions. My question is: Why make major changes to the story if I'm not sure if they're needed? I used the beta reader to check if I was right about how clear the story was, and if the pacing worked well (because it was an issue in previous stories). I was stressing out over these things and could have gone through six drafts testing out all sorts of approaches and still not have known how they would have affected an actual reader, so I checked by getting an actual reader. Makes sense to me.

But a beta reader shouldn't be asking you to change your story; I would never do that to anyone that I beta read for. When I'm reading for someone, I am looking for:
Plots that fit together and read smoothly.
If the characters are three dimensional, like real people. Are the characters likeable or not, as some are meant to be bad sometimes. And do I actually care what happens to the characters.
Head hopping and thoughts that come from minor characters that we don't really need to know what they think.
To show me the scenes instead of just telling me; show the dialogue of the conversations; show me the feelings that they're feeling. Show me the tension etc.
Wordiness and scenes that make no difference to the actual story.
Spelling, which I will always put right in red.
I tell my writers if they are using characters names too often. If they are using certain phrases or words too often.
I ask them to explain some things better if they're not coming across properly to the reader. Some writers forget that the readers can't see the scenes how they, themselves, can and that they need them painted in words to see them as the writer does.

I'm sure there's a lot more I look for; I know it when I see it, or don't, as the case may be.

virtue_summer said:

My question is: Why make major changes to the story if I'm not sure if they're needed? I used the beta reader to check if I was right about how clear the story was, and if the pacing worked well (because it was an issue in previous stories). I was stressing out over these things and could have gone through six drafts testing out all sorts of approaches and still not have known how they would have affected an actual reader, so I checked by getting an actual reader. Makes sense to me.

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virtue_summer said:

As for my take on beta readers, I'm going to disagree with the assertion that you need to have gone through a lot of drafts before giving the manuscript to a beta.

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If people don't want to use the term "beta reader" for someone who reads and comments on an earlier draft, then what would be a better term? Because sometimes that function is useful.

Why make major changes to the story if I'm not sure if they're needed? I used the beta reader to check if I was right about how clear the story was, and if the pacing worked well (because it was an issue in previous stories). I was stressing out over these things and could have gone through six drafts testing out all sorts of approaches and still not have known how they would have affected an actual reader, so I checked by getting an actual reader. Makes sense to me.

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Me too.

Samantha's_Song said:

But a beta reader shouldn't be asking you to change your story; I would never do that to anyone that I beta read for. When I'm reading for someone, I am looking for:
Plots that fit together and read smoothly.
If the characters are three dimensional, like real people. Are the characters likeable or not, as some are meant to be bad sometimes. And do I actually care what happens to the characters.

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And if the reader's feedback is that the plot did not fit together as smoothly as one would like, or that the characters are not three-dimensional enough or likeable enough, then the author may choose to make major changes. It's not that the reader asked for or demanded those changes, but the feedback showed the author that the changes were needed.

And that kind of feedback may be useful well before what will prove to be the next-to-final draft.

lexxi said:

If people don't want to use the term "beta reader" for someone who reads and comments on an earlier draft, then what would be a better term? Because sometimes that function is useful.

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I've seen the term "alpha reader' used for that.

Samantha's_Song said:

But a beta reader shouldn't be asking you to change your story; I would never do that to anyone that I beta read for.

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Can I ask why you think a beta reader shouldn't suggest changes? The author can use them or ignore them or find another way to get the same effect. It might help or it might not, like everything else a beta says. I don't see the issue.

An author's story is their own idea; it's their story arc and they should know exactly how the story pans out. I've read novels where I didn't like the ending, Gone with the wind, for example, but that story is how Margaret Mitchell planned it and that's just how it is. If I asked for a story change, then it's no longer the author's story, it's mine.

I recently read a wonderful story for someone on here and I suggested she should change the tone of some of the letters included in it. I also told her that the ending needed panning out a little more because it looked too easy. But these parts were needing change to make her wonderful story that much stronger.
At the end of my notes, I also told her that I would have liked the couple to have been in another place for the ending, as I saw it more fitting. And I also suggested a different name for the story. Now, these weren't told to her in the same way that I gave her the rest of the advice in my comments, they were said as a for me, personally, but in no way were they put that they were needed or should be changed, only that they were how I would have liked them to be.

Parametric said:

Can I ask why you think a beta reader shouldn't suggest changes? The author can use them or ignore them or find another way to get the same effect. It might help or it might not, like everything else a beta says. I don't see the issue.

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Samantha's_Song said:

An author's story is their own idea; it's their story arc and they should know exactly how the story pans out. I've read novels where I didn't like the ending, Gone with the wind, for example, but that story is how Margaret Mitchell planned it and that's just how it is. If I asked for a story change, then it's no longer the author's story, it's mine.

I recently read a wonderful story for someone on here and I suggested she should change the tone of some of the letters included in it. I also told her that the ending needed panning out a little more because it looked too easy. But these parts were needing change to make her wonderful story that much stronger.
At the end of my notes, I also told her that I would have liked the couple to have been in another place for the ending, as I saw it more fitting. And I also suggested a different name for the story. Now, these weren't told to her in the same way that I gave her the rest of the advice in my comments, they were said as a for me, personally, but in no way were they put that they were needed or should be changed, only that they were how I would have liked them to be.

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Speaking, as the writer of that story, I will say that I received 10 pages of comments from Samantha. A number of them addressed grammatical issues and my comma-itis and a few dealt with plot issues, almost all of which I have taken on board. When I'm in the throes of writing, I am in a tearing hurry to get the story told. I did change the letters, I made them much darker and desolate and I did expand the end of the story and draw out the resolution because, as she pointed out, I did make it all too easy in the original version. I also got rid of a glaring coincidence and zipped up one or two love scenes. As a result of these changes, I have a story that is more realistic and, I think, stronger. The "hero's" salvation is now much more meaningful. Without Sam's input I don't know that I would have seen the problems.
As for Sam's personal preferences, I am still mulling over the change in title, I think it might be better. The location of the ending,I'm not sure I can change, because of the second book, but I thought it was a great idea and I could certainly see the "rightness" of it.

I am extremely happy with the whole experience, not only because I think it has made my story stronger but, also, it has made me remember all those things I forgot when I did my writing courses at University!

That's my twopence worth.

I have beta'd for a couple of dozen people, and I have had others beta for me.

As someone looking for a beta, I think that there ought to be different terms: one for a reader who reads a completed ms that is as polished as you can make it, and another term for a reader who will read your stuff and help fix your grammar mistakes and things like that. I would never want anyone to correct my ms for spelling or grammar, but others might.

Maybe call one a beta and the other a crit partner, I don't know, but having clear terms might help everyone have clearer expectations. Clear expectations are important.

When I beta other people's work, I always offer to beta the first chapter or two, not the whole ms.

I give comments on the first chunk, and if people think my comments are useful and if they agree with the kinds of changes I suggest, then I will continue reading, AFTER THEY HAVE MADE THOSE CHANGES.

For example, if they have a lot of head hopping and POV confusion I'll make comments about it. If the author says, "I see the problem, I'll fix it," I say, "Great, send me the next chunk when you have done so."

If they say, "I don't see these things as a problem," then we disagree and there is little point in my reading the rest of their ms.

Sometimes they just have a different vision for their book, and my editing/writing style does not fit with theirs. I have read some good stuff from authors who rejected my suggestions for revisions because it didn't fit with their voice. That's fine.

But more often, I can find serious problems in the first chapter (bad dialogue, punctuation issues, said-isms, head-hopping, POV confusion) and the author doesn't want to correct any of it, they just want me to read the next three hundred pages so we can talk about the story.

The story may be neat, but it will never be published unless the author fixes these problems, so I feel it is a waste of time for me to read the rest.
P

Speaking, as the writer of that story, I will say that I received 10 pages of comments from Samantha.

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I am extremely happy with the whole experience,

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Wow, what a glowing recommendation. I bet Samantha's inbox if filling as we speak….
Great thread by the way. I picked up a lot of useful info lurking here.

If I were to seek a beta reader (who didn't offer to do it) I'd check out the Beta Project katiemac set up in the Share Your Work thread. There are lots of stories that you can read, along with the comments of three beta readers. It takes a bit of research but you can see the methods the readers used and decide which is best for you.

Ah, but the healing process could have been where I wanted it, then they could go back to his home territory
But if I've helped you in any way at all, then it makes my reading, and helping edit it a little, all that worthwhile, except I would have read it just for the pleasure anyway. If you'd like me to give the once-over to the redone letters and ending etc, you know where I am, okay.

And thank you for being so nice about my beta reading for you, as I know I can be a bit of an old dragon at times

firedrake said:

The location of the ending,I'm not sure I can change, because of the second book, but I thought it was a great idea and I could certainly see the "rightness" of it.

I am extremely happy with the whole experience, not only because I think it has made my story stronger but, also, it has made me remember all those things I forgot when I did my writing courses at University!

That's my twopence worth.

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Samantha's_Song said:

Ah, but the healing process could have been where I wanted it, then they could go back to his home territory
But if I've helped you in any way at all, then it makes my reading, and helping edit it a little, all that worthwhile, except I would have read it just for the pleasure anyway. If you'd like me to give the once-over to the redone letters and ending etc, you know where I am, okay.

And thank you for being so nice about my beta reading for you, as I know I can be a bit of an old dragon at times

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cheers, me dear, I may just take you up on that

As for old dragons, I'm known to be one myself

LOL... I'd better go and check then!

soapdish said:

Wow, what a glowing recommendation. I bet Samantha's inbox if filling as we speak….
Great thread by the way. I picked up a lot of useful info lurking here.

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lvcabbie, Unless someone asks for readers, then we're not to know who needs them and who doesn't. I don't look at every single query etc that's on the boards, but if I spot one, via the query process, and I think I'll like the story, I PM them and tell them I'm willing to read it if they need one. Other than that, people usually PM me and ask me to beta for them; most of the time I say yes anyway.