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How can galaxies collide if they're moving apart?

small axe

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Here's a simpleton question, but now it's troubling me!

If Space/Time is expanding outwards and apart (starting with the sub-atomic sized Universe expanding "outwards" at huge velocity) ...

If the model we always see is "dots drawn on the surface of an inflating balloon, the dots moving apart ...

If dark energy now seems to be pushing the universe outwards (and at accerlerating rates) AGAINST the gravitational attraction that would tend to pull galaxies back closer and collide ...

How can galaxies be moving closer to collide INTO each other?

Shouldn't everything be moving AWAY from everything else?

If everything starts at the same place, and has the energy to move APART at the BEGINNING ... what force can pull yhem back together again?

Even given gravitational attraction ... the galaxies should've been closer together a million years ago than they are today, right? If dark energy is making ANY space expand ... shouldn't ALL space be expanding (and thus, galaxies moving APART)?

Like I admit, it's a simpleton's question, so I hope it's a quick and effortless answer!
 

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Interesting question. I will look forward to what the reply is.
 

Romantic Heretic

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The 'moving apart' is an average. Overall the edges of the universe are moving away from the center and taking the galaxies with it.

However, within the confines of the universe there is a lot of random movement. Some galaxies are moving in directions other than straight away from the center.

So it is possible for galaxies to collide. Although I think 'intersect' would be better word.
 

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Our Galaxy , the Milky Way, is not just expanding it is also spinning and moving through space. We are travelling at half a million Kilometres an hour, and it has been estimated that in two billion years from now , we will collide with another spiral Galaxy Andromeda.Taking a further three billion years to form into a new larger Galaxy.There is at the centre of our Galaxy a black hole three million times as massive as our sun.Andromeda has a black hole ten million times as massive. No one is sure what will happen when the two black holes meet.
 
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Higgins

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Here's a simpleton question, but now it's troubling me!

If Space/Time is expanding outwards and apart (starting with the sub-atomic sized Universe expanding "outwards" at huge velocity) ...

If the model we always see is "dots drawn on the surface of an inflating balloon, the dots moving apart ...

If dark energy now seems to be pushing the universe outwards (and at accerlerating rates) AGAINST the gravitational attraction that would tend to pull galaxies back closer and collide ...

How can galaxies be moving closer to collide INTO each other?

Shouldn't everything be moving AWAY from everything else?

If everything starts at the same place, and has the energy to move APART at the BEGINNING ... what force can pull yhem back together again?

Even given gravitational attraction ... the galaxies should've been closer together a million years ago than they are today, right? If dark energy is making ANY space expand ... shouldn't ALL space be expanding (and thus, galaxies moving APART)?

Like I admit, it's a simpleton's question, so I hope it's a quick and effortless answer!

It's not a simple question, but the simple answer is that the force(s) that are causing the expansion are the same forces that cause collisions. For example, Andromeda is heading for our galaxy because in the local group of galaxies that's the gravitational (+dark energy?)situation. If you take the gravitational situation of the local group its getting pulled in a million other directions by a million other gravitational sources. Its the combined gravitational pull of a million sources pulling a million sources in all different directions that gives a gravitational metric that is part of the expansion. dark energy is contributing more (I guess-- or only 1/3 as much: see the notes)...but the multiple source metric/solution will work even in Newtonian physics with the right kind of "dust"(ie point sources) so I'm told.

Here's some notes about how the newtonian approximations lead into the standard metric.

http://www.astro.uu.se/~nisse/courses/kos2008/lnotes/ln3.pdf
 
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Nivarion

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my guess is, that some galaxies are closer to the dark energy source that is pushing them, so they are accelrating more. they over take the ones that are further and therefore not moving as fast.

thats just me guess though.
 

Higgins

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Even given gravitational attraction ... the galaxies should've been closer together a million years ago than they are today, right? If dark energy is making ANY space expand ... shouldn't ALL space be expanding (and thus, galaxies moving APART)?

Like I admit, it's a simpleton's question, so I hope it's a quick and effortless answer!

Here's another way of looking at it: Dark energy (being as near as anyone can tell a feature of all vacua) is just an extra term in the gravitational metric. So if attractive situations in the field dominate then things move together (eg Andromeda toward the Milky Way) and if the field strength is very low (out in the middle of nowhere then you get "expanded vacuum"....
 

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Here's a simpleton question, but now it's troubling me!

If Space/Time is expanding outwards and apart (starting with the sub-atomic sized Universe expanding "outwards" at huge velocity) ...

If the model we always see is "dots drawn on the surface of an inflating balloon, the dots moving apart ...
Yes, but the ballon thing is a very crude, first-order approximation. The dots are fixed in relation to the ballon's surface, so as the ballon is inflated, the dots will always move apart. In the real world, partices (or galaxies or whatever) are not connected by any such 'surface', and are free to move about in relation to one another.
The 'moving apart' is an average. Overall the edges of the universe are moving away from the center and taking the galaxies with it.

However, within the confines of the universe there is a lot of random movement. Some galaxies are moving in directions other than straight away from the center.
And even if all particles of matter started off moving directly away from the center (thus every particle would indeed be moving away from every other particle), they are randomly distributed, and some particles that are nearer to each other than to others will have more gravitational force towrd each other and start falling toward each other. More particles will coalesce due to their gravitational attraction, forming stars and galaxies and stuff. Two nearby galaxies, heading away from the origin of the Universe, will initially be heading away from each other but their mutual gravitational attraction can bring them toward each other.

Dark matter and dark energy add a confounding force to this (apparently these things were hypothesized because scientists were confounded that things weren't quite exactly acting as they 'should' with known 'visible' matter and energy), but they're not needed to explain the basic idea.

The "alternative" is for all particles to be evenly distributed throughout the Universe, and that would be awfully boring.

It's interesting that at the really small scale atoms and molecules bounce off each other, giving rise to gas pressure which tends to push them apart. If you pop a ballon in outer space the air or gas molecules will disperse. But at a much larger scale, trillions (or whatever the power of ten should be) of tons of gas will come together due to gravitational force to form a star.
 

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If the model we always see is "dots drawn on the surface of an inflating balloon, the dots moving apart ...

If dark energy now seems to be pushing the universe outwards (and at accerlerating rates) AGAINST the gravitational attraction that would tend to pull galaxies back closer and collide ...

How can galaxies be moving closer to collide INTO each other?


It might not have been stated clearly when this balloon model was mentioned, but the dots represent clusters of galaxies, rather than individual galaxies. We, the Earth, our Solar System, the Milky Way or even our Local Group of galaxies aren't expanding - at these levels, everything is bound together by electrical and gravitational forces of attraction between the constituent atoms and molecules. It's only when you get to the scale of clusters of galaxies that expansion dominates what is happening. As individual galaxies fall below this scale, collisions between them are possible.
 

Angelinity

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Here's a simpleton question, but now it's troubling me!

If Space/Time is expanding outwards and apart (starting with the sub-atomic sized Universe expanding "outwards" at huge velocity) ...

If the model we always see is "dots drawn on the surface of an inflating balloon, the dots moving apart ...

If dark energy now seems to be pushing the universe outwards (and at accerlerating rates) AGAINST the gravitational attraction that would tend to pull galaxies back closer and collide ...

How can galaxies be moving closer to collide INTO each other?

Shouldn't everything be moving AWAY from everything else?

If everything starts at the same place, and has the energy to move APART at the BEGINNING ... what force can pull yhem back together again?

Even given gravitational attraction ... the galaxies should've been closer together a million years ago than they are today, right? If dark energy is making ANY space expand ... shouldn't ALL space be expanding (and thus, galaxies moving APART)?

Like I admit, it's a simpleton's question, so I hope it's a quick and effortless answer!

you're thinking in two dimensions. add a few--several, but at least two more.
 

Higgins

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Here's another way of looking at it: Dark energy (being as near as anyone can tell a feature of all vacua) is just an extra term in the gravitational metric. So if attractive situations in the field dominate then things move together (eg Andromeda toward the Milky Way) and if the field strength is very low (out in the middle of nowhere then you get "expanded vacuum"....

Same course notes...something on metrics:

http://www.astro.uu.se/~nisse/courses/kos2008/lnotes/ln2.pdf
 

Lhun

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my guess is, that some galaxies are closer to the dark energy source that is pushing them, so they are accelrating more. they over take the ones that are further and therefore not moving as fast.

thats just me guess though.
It's reasonable for a guess, but not what really happens.
"Everything moves away from everything else" is basically correct, just as the mentioned ballon model, only in 3D. There is no single source everything is pushed away from. The balloon model was first invented to show how expansion works when you have no center, and everything move away from everything else, not away from one common point.
Another feature of universe expansion is however that the farther apart two object are, the faster they move away from each other. And the reverse, obviously.
Very distant galaxy move away from each other at a speed faster than the speed of light, while galaxies close to each other can have individual dV that results in collisions.
Note: galaxies can only exist because of this, gravity is strong enough to hold galaxies together even though all the stars move away from each other. And all atoms in the stars from all other atoms etc.
One scenario is that in time, the (accelerating) expansion of the universe will have reached a speed at which not even atoms will stay coherent.
 

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There's a rumor we're getting close...
Personally, I'm not convinced that space is expanding or that there is dark matter at all. This is not the first time that learned people have observed a phenonemnon and fabricated an explanation that turned out to be wrong. And they have a nasty habit of killing people who don't agree.

The only evidence for expansion is red-shift. No matter what direction you look, everything has a red-shift. And the farther away it is, the bigger the red shift. So, the farther away something is, the faster it appears to be moving away from us. The only explanation that fits is universal expansion. But isn't it possible that these red-shifts could be caused by something other than recessional velocity? We've only known about red-shifts in stars for a hundred years or so. And man thought the Earth was the center of the universe for several thousand years before he figured out it wasn't.

Don't look too closely at the 'science' behind estimates of the age or size of the universe, they have as many shaky assumptions as a Medieval alchemist. Beyond parallax, good for hundreds of light years, and Cepheid variables, good for a few million light years, there is NO universal yardstick. No doubt the universe is very old, and no doubt it is very large, but when science becomes intransigent to new ideas, as it is now, and towing a line to keep your career on track becomes necessary, it is no longer science but politics. And politicians NEVER get it right.

So, galaxies colliding is no big deal. We have pictures of it happening, after it has happened, and about to happen. Shelve expansion and dark matter and let your mind wander! Come up with your own explanations for the phenomenon we see, they are valid as any other.

As for dark matter, the idea of the ether has only been dead for about a hundred years(Michaelson Morley Experiment) and now it has apparently been resurrected! Amazing how science, which claims to be totally emperical, and often denounces those who believe in the spiritual, will simply invent whatever abstractions are necessary to prop up a popular theoretical framework. No one has ever seen dark matter. Never measured any. We know NOTHING about it. Yet it's existence has already gone past theoretical and become accepted. Faith? I guess scientists have it too.
 
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kuwisdelu

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There are several factors that could be considered in an explanation, but the most important and and simplest one is this:

Here's another way of looking at it: Dark energy (being as near as anyone can tell a feature of all vacua) is just an extra term in the gravitational metric. So if attractive situations in the field dominate then things move together (eg Andromeda toward the Milky Way) and if the field strength is very low (out in the middle of nowhere then you get "expanded vacuum"....

While the universe is homogenous when taken on a large scale, this isn't true once you get really local. That is, while matter is--more or less--evenly distributed throughout the universe, you will still have areas where matter is more concentrated than others--galaxies, galaxy clusters, superclusters, etc. While the universe is expanding on the large scale, gravity can be the more powerful and dominant force in these local interactions.

Personally, I'm not convinced that space is expanding or that there is dark matter at all. This is not the first time that learned people have observed a phenonemnon and fabricated an explanation that turned out to be wrong. And they have a nasty habit of killing people who don't agree.

The only evidence for expansion is red-shift. No matter what direction you look, everything has a red-shift. And the farther away it is, the bigger the red shift. So, the farther away something is, the faster it appears to be moving away from us. The only explanation that fits is universal expansion. But isn't it possible that these red-shifts could be caused by something other than recessional velocity? We've only known about red-shifts in stars for a hundred years or so. And man thought the Earth was the center of the universe for several thousand years before he figured out it wasn't.

As you pointed out yourself, though, it's the only explanation we currently have. It fits the observations, and we can make models and predictions from it. It may not be perfect; it may be completely wrong, but that fact is that it's the best thing we've got. I understand your skepticism, but I don't really think "because it might be wrong" is a good enough reason to dismiss a very good explanation.

Until someone comes up with new, experimentally testable physics that would better explain the observations, most of us are going with an expanding universe.

So, galaxies colliding is no big deal. We have pictures of it happening, after it has happened, and about to happen. Shelve expansion and dark matter and let your mind wander! Come up with your own explanations for the phenomenon we see, they are valid as any other.

It's great to come up with one's own ideas. I've had a few of my own. But any idea would still have to have a lot of mathematical rigor, observational evidence to back it up to be anywhere near as valid.

As for dark matter, the idea of the ether has only been dead for about a hundred years(Michaelson Morley Experiment) and now it has apparently been resurrected! Amazing how science, which claims to be totally emperical, and often denounces those who believe in the spiritual, will simply invent whatever abstractions are necessary to prop up a popular theoretical framework. No one has ever seen dark matter. Never measured any. We know NOTHING about it. Yet it's existence has already gone past theoretical and become accepted. Faith? I guess scientists have it too.

I think you're getting a little carried away here. Dark matter isn't really like the "ether." Nor was it invented to prop up a merely "popular theoretical framework." General relativity is as good as we have right now for understanding gravity, and I'm guessing that would have to be the "popular theoretical framework" to which you refer. General relativity may not be perfect--hell, it certainly won't be close even, and neither will QM, until we can unite them--but it's extremely rigorous and has proven itself time and time again with observation and prediction.

Yes, "dark matter" was invented to explain the differences between GR's predictions and the observations in the velocities of outer stars in distant galaxies. The "missing matter" hypothesis was the best, unless there is a problem with general relativity--which there may well be. But with its track record, the more likely explanation is some kind of weakly interacting massive particles, or some other form of "dark matter," non-observable but through their gravitational effects. I'd hardly call it "faith" when one's belief is based on observational evidence and the scientific method.

While physics sure has had its share of embarrassments of scientists clinging to outdated ideas they believed just had to be correct, out of some faith or ego or intransigence (e.g., the ether, or even Einstein's rejection of QM), it's also had its share of discoveries through exactly these kinds of theoretical "inventions" and hypotheses. The positron, for instance, was theorized in a similar way--as a hypothesized particle naturally arising from a certain theoretical framework (the Dirac equation). No one knew whether it existed or not; no one had seen it before. Lo and behold, some testing later, and it existed.

No. We don't know what dark matter is. Does that really matter? We see its effects. We can measure them. When a better or clearer explanation comes along, we'll adopt that. But for now, they "dark," or unknown, and what appears to be "matter," and ultimately, that's just place-holder until we know what the heck it really is (or manage to explain it away through revision of GR).

Skepticism is good. But sometimes it's easy to get carried away and dismiss good ideas.
 
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small axe

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But for now, they "dark," or unknown, and what appears to be "matter," and ultimately, that's just place-holder until we know what the heck it really is (or manage to explain it away through revision of GR).
Skepticism is good. But sometimes it's easy to get carried away and dismiss good ideas.

Well, obviously I'm the one asking the questions, so I'm not knowing the answers!

That said, some people would point out:

Others who have to "make up" mysterious dark energies and forms of matter (and seven extra dimensions of space/time) for which there is no evidence just to make their own materialist theories work out ...

Are indeed teetering dangerously (or at least unrationally) into the realms of mere "faith" :poke:

If we are happy imagining spooky extra dimensions ... who is to say those dimensions are not ALSO inhabitted by ghosts and gods, along with the supposed Theories Of Everything?

No one.

No one can say that ... except those who allow themselves their own "faith" when necessary to support their positions ...

Yet scorn the faiths of others.

Freeman Dyson in his interesting book "INFINITE IN ALL DIRECTIONS" makes the fascinating suggestion that "It is impossible to calculate in detail the long range future of the universe without including the effects of life and intelligence" ... and that it may be 'philosophically regretable' that the same question is not explored in regards to the EARLY history of the universe. :)

A universe that generates INTELLIGENT BEINGS might be fundamentally as greatly shaped by Intelligence as it is shaped by Gravity or "dark energy" etc.

Perhaps even more shaped by Intelligence than by Gravity. After all ... Gravity acts without plan or motive ... while Intelligence can empower itself and its effect a million-fold via planning and motive!

paranoia.jpg


And so we must ask ourselves, which is at play?

"dark energy" ? Or ...

"dark" MOTIVES ???
 

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Well, obviously I'm the one asking the questions, so I'm not knowing the answers!

That said, some people would point out:

Others who have to "make up" mysterious dark energies and forms of matter (and seven extra dimensions of space/time) for which there is no evidence just to make their own materialist theories work out ...

It is not easy to take the universe as it is and try to figure out an explanation based on what we can directly verify experimentally. The thing about "materialist" theories is that they have a requirement that they be materially verifiable. Eg. microwaves on earth act like microwaves from the beginning of time. ie they are microwaves and have all kinds of materially verifiable characteristics.

Theories that have no material predictions or verifications are easy to articulate at one level, but they don't give you any indications about anything. So if you want to figure things out you are stuck with the difficulties of materialist theories.
 

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As an analogy, shrapnel moving outwards from an explosion can still collide and bounce off other shrapnel. Exactly how things move from the central point depends on a lot of other factors.
 

kuwisdelu

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Well, obviously I'm the one asking the questions, so I'm not knowing the answers!

That said, some people would point out:

Others who have to "make up" mysterious dark energies and forms of matter (and seven extra dimensions of space/time) for which there is no evidence just to make their own materialist theories work out ...

Are indeed teetering dangerously (or at least unrationally) into the realms of mere "faith" :poke:

If we are happy imagining spooky extra dimensions ... who is to say those dimensions are not ALSO inhabitted by ghosts and gods, along with the supposed Theories Of Everything?

No one.

No one can say that ... except those who allow themselves their own "faith" when necessary to support their positions ...

Yet scorn the faiths of others.

I'm not scorning the faith of others, merely demonstrating that such explanations are more than simply "faith."

I'm pointing out that someone is more than just "faith" if it has experimental and observational support. The effect of dark matter has been observed. What it is, we do not know. If physicists were proclaim tomorrow "we know exactly what dark matter is!" without experimentally verifiable evidence, that would be an act of pure faith.

Say someone doesn't know about gravity. Call this person Bob. Bob sees an apple fall. He notices when he jumps up and down, he also falls. Bob takes it as an assumption that when he is not moving, he is standing still (not quite accurate, but let's run with it like that). Say Bob comes up with an idea, called the force of Plemton. Plemton made the apple fall! Plemton makes all objects fall!

Does this person know what Plemton is? Does he understand exactly how it works? Does he understand the mechanism of how it works? No. Is he acting out of pure "faith" that Plemton is real and exists--no, because he's seen its effects. In this analogy, Dark Matter is Plemton.

Just because we don't know what Dark Matter or Plemton are doesn't mean they don't exist. And if they don't exist, it may be that one of our fundamental postulates is wrong. In Bob's case, it might be that he is standing still--he could be standing on a platform accelerating upward at 9.8 m/s^2 instead. In our case, there may be a flaw with General Relativity.

But every suggests to Bob he really is standing still. Everything suggests to us General Relativity is a very good model.

It's not faith when it's based on evidence.


In the case of string theory and your extra dimensions--well, those extra dimensions come about as a necessary side-effect of string theory, which is has a rigorous mathematical framework. Now string theory has made no experimentally testable hypotheses yet--so I'd actually agree with you here that those that "believe" string theory to be necessarily correct are acting on pure faith. But I would disagree that coming up with ghosts and gods that inhabit those other dimensions are just as valid scientifically--and if you're not speaking scientifically, then that's just fine. But scientifically, string theory does predict the rest of current physics--you can work our electricity, magnetism, etc., from it. It works. So that does prove extra dimensions wouldn't contradict our current understanding of physics, and could even follow from a new understanding.

But come up with ghosts and gods all you like. No one's stopping you.

Take something like Dark Energy. I don't think there's much of a question it exists. We don't know what it is. If you want it say it's the hand of God, then I'll say that that's a perfectly valid explanation. But merely suggesting its existence--which is observable--is not on the same level of pure faith.
 

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As you pointed out yourself, though, it's the only explanation we currently have. It fits the observations, and we can make models and predictions from it. It may not be perfect; it may be completely wrong, but that fact is that it's the best thing we've got. I understand your skepticism, but I don't really think "because it might be wrong" is a good enough reason to dismiss a very good explanation.

Until someone comes up with new, experimentally testable physics that would better explain the observations, most of us are going with an expanding universe.

This mentality is potentially damaging to the field of science. Yes, we should work off theories we have, but we should also always question those theories, lest we find ourselves trapped in a paradigm-driven body of science.

Yes, I like Kuhn.
 
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MelancholyMan

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I don't necessarily accept that the effects of dark matter have been observed. We have observations, yes, but we can't be sure the interpretation is correct for the reasons I pointed out previously. I am not the only scientist in the world who suspects that something other than recessional velocity is the only thing responsible for red shift. And every measurement that supports the existence of dark matter is based on velocity dependent red shift analysis. Gravity, for instance - as predicted by SR - will induce a red shift on light departing the gravitational field.

At the same time, it is possible that Dark Matter exists. It is also possible that extraterrestrials exist. But just because something is a possibility, doesn't mean it should be thought of as true. The same argument applies to evolution. Whether you believe it or not, it is by no means an open and shut argument as many would have you believe. All the hominid bones ever found would not fill even a single coffin.

Being a scientist myself I'm not against theoretical frameworks being erected in an attempt to explain things. Unfortunately, the first generation talks about it as a hypothesis, the second talks about it as a theory, and the third talks about as a fact - as has happened with evolution, when virtually nothing has been proven. In almost every case, it becomes a political argument resistant to new ideas. That's the only thing I'm against.

Personally, if the observations are correct, I tend to think that dark matter isn't exotic at all - as was the immediate conclusion - but something much more mundane like, say, brown dwarfs. There are estimates that up to half a galaxy's mass might be in the form of brown dwarfs; gaseous bodies that lack the mass to initiate fusion and so are dark. Entire solar systems surrounding brown dwarfs could outnumber stars by more than ten times and still be spread out enough to go completely unnoticed.

And as a note, Einstein didn't reject QM. Einstein rejected one of the interpretations of QM. He understood that it worked well in predicting interactions, he just didn't accept that the randomness was an actual effect but felt it was only a convenient abstraction to explain the observed behavior... sort of like dark matter. :)
 

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This mentality is potentially damaging to the field of science. Yes, we should work off theories we have, but we should also always question those theories, lest we find ourselves trapped in a paradigm-driven body of science.

Yes, I like Kuhn.
The problem with Kuhn is that he was wrong about one small, yet important detail. The way science progresses, differently than Kuhn theorizes, is that a better theory comes along. The thing is, we need to have theories of the physical world to do mundane activities like designing computers and airplanes. If someone comes along and succesfully questions a theory, proving that it's wrong, he still can't expect anyone to stop using that theory. It'll still be in use until someone finds one that works better than the old one.
Too many people get high on the "questioning established dogma" part and forget that the "finding better explanation" part is what's really important.

Well, obviously I'm the one asking the questions, so I'm not knowing the answers!

That said, some people would point out:

Others who have to "make up" mysterious dark energies and forms of matter (and seven extra dimensions of space/time) for which there is no evidence just to make their own materialist theories work out ...

Are indeed teetering dangerously (or at least unrationally) into the realms of mere "faith" :poke:
What you have to keep in sight here is that physicists didn't came with dark matter and energy while smoking a lot of pot one evening and thinking "hey, cool idea, we don't know better so let's run with this".
Science follows Occams Razor, i.e. dark matter and dark energy are the simplest explanations we have currently available. Supernatural theories are neither simple nor useful, science can only deal with natural explanations.
 

geardrops

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Too many people get high on the "questioning established dogma" part and forget that the "finding better explanation" part is what's really important.

I think this really comes down to personal philosophy. The pragmatist will want a better functioning theory, and the ... theorist? I can't think of a better term ... will be interested in the holes poked in the theory.

The problem is the pragmatists tend to "win" to the point where instead of talking of things as a best-fit theory we talk about it as a real thing. So we get things like "dephlogistated air."

ETA: I also think this confuses science with engineering.
 
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small axe

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I'm not scorning the faith of others, merely demonstrating that such explanations are more than simply "faith."

I didn't mean to suggest that YOU were scorning the faith of others! (I meant my use of 'others' to mean 'others' than those involved in our thread, etc)

But come up with ghosts and gods all you like. No one's stopping you.

Take something like Dark Energy. I don't think there's much of a question it exists. We don't know what it is. If you want it say it's the hand of God, then I'll say that that's a perfectly valid explanation. But merely suggesting its existence--which is observable--is not on the same level of pure faith.

I just worry that not knowing what something IS, but then saying it is 'observable' ... doesn't satisfy those (and I may not be one of those) who reply: How can you know WHAT you're observing UNLESS you know what it is?

I think I understand that YOU are using "dark" to mean that you're putting no claims upon its ultimate nature. (And that is good Science. That keeps the mind open to extreme possibilities that can rightfully be explored)

But ... I bet I could walk onto any University campus and find hundreds of educated adults, materialists who, not having ANY IDEA what 'dark energy' is ... and having NO BASIS for ruling out anything ... would demand that it CANNOT be "the Hand of God"

That, imo, is "faith"

In fact, it is NOT faith EQUAL TO the faith of God-worshippers, it is a far greater and less open-minded dogma!

Why?

Because I could find you a hundred Believers who could do the same exact and valid SCIENCE concerning "dark energy" ... and simply attribute it to GOD working through the natural laws of God's Creation. :)

The Believer can be open-minded and both Believe and still do quality Science.

The strict materialist (an extreme being the Athiest who demands that no God can exist) must on the other hand close his or her mind to a Universe of possible (but non-atheist) possibilities.

Why?

Because they demand that such a thing as the "supernatural" cannot exist -- based not upon Knowledge and Evidence, but upon Ignorance (what they DON'T know) and dogma.

I won't go so far as to suggest that Einstein's temporal relativity is the same thing as losing Time while in Fairyland and returning after a day in Faerie to realize centuries have passed here on Earth!

Just that what was once "supernatural" is now natural science; and what is today "supernatural" to the closed-minded can easily be the accepted Physics and Science of a more-enlightened Future.

Like I said: I didn't even know why galaxies can both expand away from each other and still collide (until it was explained! Thanks to all)

But there are some leaps into materialist dogma I still shan't make ... :)
 

small axe

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Science follows Occams Razor, i.e. dark matter and dark energy are the simplest explanations we have currently available. Supernatural theories are neither simple nor useful, science can only deal with natural explanations.

Occam's Razor has always troubled me, though: to ASSUME that the 'simplest' explanation is always the best one?

I realize that Science is in pursuit of the Theory of Everything, and sees ultimate knowledge in the UNIFICATION of currently diverse cosmic forces etc. The 'simplification' of the Universe.

But it seems that the POINT of the Universe is (and I'm just observing) towards COMPLEXITY. Increasing Diversity and Difference.

Stupid hydrogen atoms evolve into self-aware creatures who are trouble by Occam's Razor issues etc. The value of the human (to me) is to hear what the human Thinks and Dreams ... and not so much in the original state of the unborn fetus' DNA (which, again, is found in complexity, not simplicity)

A Unified Cosmos was ... well ... so basic that we cannot even grasp of what it was.

Play the movie back a few frames before the Big Bang and ... there isn't even a movie there to play, anymore.

The Meaning of the Movie isn't to be found in how it starts but how it ends, some suggest.

The Art of the movie isn't in the analysis of the chemicals upon the celluloid.

*shrug*

I blather.

Is there ANY example of Occam's Razor being WRONG? Where the simplest explanation ISN'T the true explanation?

I'm betting that where simplicity is,
Intelligence and Self-awareness haven't had much involvement. YET.

A Universe without those ... is an unfinished story, imo. :Sun:

Edited to Add:
I'm betting that where simplicity is,
Intelligence and Self-awareness haven't had much involvement. YET.
Unless we're taking some sort of Diety creationist approach, in which case "simplicity" can be seen as existential "elegance" and creating the Self (the highest form of Being) out of the most simple and lowest elements is part of the entire point. :)

The Joy there is that Complexity would not be impressed by understand Itself, but having Simplicity become Complexity would be COOLEST.
 
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