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brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 05:20 PM
Wow, I cannot get over the many threads that often turn into author bashing.
What happened to the rule of respecting the fellow author?
Its fine not to like a book.. But when it gets down to making personal attacks on the author or calling the book s*i*, personally I think thats a tad much or talking about the authors personal life and looks. Just my opinion but would like hears yours on it.

CaroGirl
02-04-2009, 05:22 PM
Could you be more specific? Do you mean authors on this site bashing other authors on this site, or authors on this site bashing published authors, or published authors bashing other published authors? The only thing I'm sure of is you don't mean published authors bashing authors on this site. :)

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 05:24 PM
You're allowed to not like books.

I feel free to diss the ones I don't and praise the ones I do.

If you (in general, not the OP personally) don't have a thick skin when it comes to criticism, you're probably not cut out for this game.

I'll always call bad writing out and feel no guilt for doing so.

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 05:25 PM
Could you be more specific? Do you mean authors on this site bashing other authors on this site, or authors on this site bashing published authors, or published authors bashing other published authors? The only thing I'm sure of is you don't mean published authors bashing authors on this site. :)

I've come across all three.

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 05:26 PM
That's life. You can't make everyone like you.

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 05:26 PM
You're allowed to not like books.

I feel free to diss the ones I don't and praise the ones I do.

If you (in general, not the OP personally) don't have a thick skin when it comes to criticism, you're probably not cut out for this game.

I'll always call bad writing out and feel no guilt for doing so.

I'm not talking about liking a book I am talking about personal attacks on the author SP.

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 05:26 PM
That's life. You can't make everyone like you.

Resorting to personal attacks is sort of childish and makes one look bitter!

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 05:27 PM
*sigh*

I know that.

You asked for opinions, I gave mine.

And calling a book 'shit' is not the same as calling the author shit. If I don't know the author, pfft. I have nothing to go on but what they put out there - the book.

If I spend money and time on a novel, I buy the right to have an opinion on it, whether good or bad.

Wayne K
02-04-2009, 05:31 PM
I'm wondering about the bashing an author for their looks thing. I don't get why someone needs to be beautiful to be artistic. That mindset ruined the music business and is eroding acting as well. If writers now need to be good looking we're in deep trouble.

StevenJ
02-04-2009, 05:32 PM
I think that part of the problem some AW members have with certain authors is the way they (the authors) react to criticism. We don't expect successful, popular authors to flounce or state that 'Everyone's picking on me!'

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 05:32 PM
I'm wondering about the bashing an author for their looks thing. I don't get why someone needs to be beautiful to be artistic. That mindset ruined the music business and is eroding acting as well. If writers now need to be good looking we're in deep trouble.

Very true.

Wayne K
02-04-2009, 05:33 PM
That's life. You can't make everyone like you.


Can I beat the one's I can't about the head and neck?

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 05:33 PM
I'm wondering about the bashing an author for their looks thing. I don't get why someone needs to be beautiful to be artistic. That mindset ruined the music business and is eroding acting as well. If writers now need to be good looking we're in deep trouble.

Pfft. I'll be all right; just look at my avatar. I'm gorgeous.

CaroGirl
02-04-2009, 05:35 PM
If I write something and share it by publishing it or putting it up for criticism, I can expect to have the writing judged. If a reader says something about my writing sucks, sure I'll be hurt, our work is like our baby. It's generally pretty personal. However, I would know that it was the work they were talking about, not me as a person. If someone reads my work and then says I'm a jerk and my feet smell like cheese, well, I'd actually take that less personally because that person does not know me and can't judge me. Readers can only judge the work, not me.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
02-04-2009, 05:35 PM
If you see personal attacks from one member on another member, report the post - it's the little triangle on the left with what looks like an exclamation point on it. I promise we - the Mods - will handle it.

As for authors not on the site... Scarlet's right. Calling a work shite isn't the same as calling an author shite.

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 05:37 PM
Dear god. OFG. You said...you said..."Shite."

My illusions are shattered.

Delete my account. My life on AW is over.

Wayne K
02-04-2009, 05:38 PM
Pfft. I'll be all right; just look at my avatar. I'm gorgeous.

Yes you are, but I love the way you think. I can't wait to read something you've written.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
02-04-2009, 05:39 PM
Dear god. OFG. You said...you said..."Shite."

My illusions are shattered.

Delete my account. My life on AW is over.

Oh, honey! You should hear me in meatspace. I've got this string of invective that's been known to make burly male truckers swoon.

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 05:40 PM
Not talking about the writing being judged people... Talking about the author themselves!

CaroGirl
02-04-2009, 05:40 PM
I'm wondering about the bashing an author for their looks thing. I don't get why someone needs to be beautiful to be artistic. That mindset ruined the music business and is eroding acting as well. If writers now need to be good looking we're in deep trouble.
Who bashes authors' looks? If looks counted, Stephen King wouldn't be a millionaire. But Adrienne Kress would. And SP too, of course.

KTC
02-04-2009, 05:40 PM
Delete my account. My life on AW is over.

ignoring the rest of the thread and dancing the Meposian dance of joy!!

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 05:41 PM
I know some users feel the need to be nasty quite often ... But I'm talking about personal attacks .. not opinions on if a book is great or not.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
02-04-2009, 05:41 PM
Not talking about the writing being judged people... Talking about the author themselves!

Links?

Ol' Fashioned Girl
02-04-2009, 05:42 PM
ignoring the rest of the thread and dancing the Meposian dance of joy!!

And all it took was my saying 'shite'. Who knew?

KTC
02-04-2009, 05:42 PM
Not talking about the writing being judged people... Talking about the author themselves!

You mean like when I say FREY IS SHIT? I will never refute that. When I say it, it is in context to his abilities to write a coherent sentence...not his personality. I stand by my words. I am not bitter, I am passing a judgement.

StevenJ
02-04-2009, 05:43 PM
Well I look like a dog's bum with a hat on it, so I'm hoping my genius riting style will overcum the publik's desire for beautifulnessosity. :D

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 05:44 PM
Well I look like a dog's bum with a hat on it, so I'm hoping my genius riting style will overcum the publik's desire for beautifulnessosity. :D

Hardly from your avatar :)

Ken
02-04-2009, 05:45 PM
...just between us, "some" of the published and highly-successful author bashing probably stems from jealousy ;-)

Perks
02-04-2009, 05:46 PM
I assume we're talking about the King/Meyer thread? If it came down to talking about the way either of them looks, then, yeah, that seems out-of-bounds.

I'm sick to the teeth of my singers having to all be hotties, but if that wave swallows the writers too, I fear for who'll be left standing -- and what we'll have left to read.

Nicole Ritchie - Aaaaaaaggggggghhhhhh!

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 05:46 PM
Yes you are, but I love the way you think. I can't wait to read something you've written.

thethinker42 reads my stuff all the time. Do you want to turn out like her? I think not.


Oh, honey! You should hear me in meatspace. I've got this string of invective that's been known to make burly male truckers swoon.

We must meet up sometime and go all Tourette's on each other.


Not talking about the writing being judged people... Talking about the author themselves!

I can't remember that ever happening in all seriousness on AW.

However, judging someone on their looks is what we do all the time in real life. We might think quietly, "She's nice looking," or, "Why doesn't he have a bath and a shave?" or "That shirt doesn't suit him," or "What does she look like with all that makeup on?"

Momentary flashes, maybe, but opinions they still are. Why should authors be any different?

I look at Stephenie Meyer for instance and think she's beautiful. (Could stand to lose a few, but her author photos are generally neck up). Really. I think she's an extremely good looking woman.

Still can't write for shit though.

Now. If I said, "Stephenie Meyer is ugly, therefore she's a bad writer," well that would make no sense at all.

However, if I alternatively said, "Stephenie Meyer is beautiful; that must mean she's a good writer," that would make no sense either.

One's writing talent (or lack thereof) does not depend on physical appearance.

However - we all judge books by their covers. When it comes to people I mean. Like it or not, deny it all you want, but we do. Someone's appearance is the first thing we see. Not their personality.


Who bashes authors' looks? If looks counted, Stephen King wouldn't be a millionaire. But Adrienne Kress would. And SP too, of course.

I would be a bajillionaire! :D


ignoring the rest of the thread and dancing the Meposian dance of joy!!

Just for that...I stay.

Mr Flibble
02-04-2009, 05:46 PM
I can't say I've seen any personal attacks on published authors here. People's writing ripped to shreds yes. And you can expect that. I won't say I think X's writing is great if I hate it. But nothing any more personal than that.

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 05:48 PM
...just between us, "some" of the published and highly-successful author bashing probably stems from jealousy ;-)

Just between us...that's a popular - and wrong - idea.

I don't begrudge anyone their success if they deserve it.

If it was down to jealousy, ALL published authors would be dissed on this site.

They're not. So your argument doesn't hold water.

firedrake
02-04-2009, 05:53 PM
Scarlett is right, we all make snap judgements on how people look, it's human nature.

As for author-bashing, you put a book "out there" it's fair game for praise or criticism. I have a list of authors as long as yer arm that I loathe and, for the life of me, I can't understand how their words ever managed to appear in print but that could be the little green-eyed monster in me coming out. It does my nut when I see books written in a way that assume that readers have no imagination and, therefore have to be spoonfed EVERYTHING, so I will rip the author because they've done everything I've been taught not to do.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, not at full function...too early in morning.

Ken
02-04-2009, 05:54 PM
Just between us...that's a popular - and wrong - idea.

I don't begrudge anyone their success if they deserve it.

If it was down to jealousy, ALL published authors would be dissed on this site.

They're not. So your argument doesn't hold water.

...clearly not in your own case, but in some others' I believe it does. Jealousy is, after all, a pretty common foible.

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 05:54 PM
Stop disrespecting me!!!!

Ken
02-04-2009, 05:58 PM
...well if I have disrespected you, Scarlett, let's just attribute it to jealousy ;-)
You're a smart cookie, though can be trying at times, especially when you're making a well argued and valid point that clashes with mine ;-)

StevenJ
02-04-2009, 06:01 PM
I just can't get jealous of successful authors - I seem to lack the competitive edge of real writers, so I'm probably doomed to failure. :D

A friend of mine from a writer's forum recently got a 3-book deal from an offshoot of Harper Collins. She was interviewed by Midlands tv the other day, and watching the clip, I was so happy for her success that I felt like crying. :D :D

But then, I always was a twit - feel free to put the boot into my soppiness, lack of ambition, and general idiocy, folks. :D :D

donroc
02-04-2009, 06:02 PM
At least buy my books, and then I will not mind what I am called unless name is misspelled.

I always liked Lion Feuchtwangers critique of Hitler's book. "There are 365,000 words in Mein Kampf, and 365,000 offenses against German style and grammar."

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 06:02 PM
I just can't get jealous of successful authors - I seem to lack the competitive edge of real writers, so I'm probably doomed to failure. :D

A friend of mine from a writer's forum recently got a 3-book deal from an offshoot of Harper Collins. She was interviewed by Midlands tv the other day, and watching the clip, I was so happy for her success that I felt like crying. :D:D

But then, I always was a twit - feel free to put the boot into my soppiness, lack of ambition, and general idiocy, folks. :D:D

Nah. You're Welsh. It'd be like kicking a puppy.

I like more of a challenge.

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 06:05 PM
I just can't get jealous of successful authors - I seem to lack the competitive edge of real writers, so I'm probably doomed to failure. :D

A friend of mine from a writer's forum recently got a 3-book deal from an offshoot of Harper Collins. She was interviewed by Midlands tv the other day, and watching the clip, I was so happy for her success that I felt like crying. :D :D

But then, I always was a twit - feel free to put the boot into my soppiness, lack of ambition, and general idiocy, folks. :D :D

I would be thrilled if a writer friend of mind found that success too! :)

NeuroFizz
02-04-2009, 06:13 PM
Just like in science, peer review is an important and necessary part of the writing business. But that review should be on the work, not on the person. A particularly pointed negative review of an author's writing is NOT necessarily an attack on the writer as a person, but rather on that writer's written work. There is a huge difference, and it's a line that is usually pretty easy to spot.

This is not a touchy-feely business, and it shouldn't be because we are asking the public to spend their hard-earned money on what we produce. We should all be pushed or pulled toward excellence, even if we are kicking and screaming the whole time. We should also realize that excellence can be subjective in such a creative activity, so differences of opinion on an individual writer's accomplishments will be part of the game.

Perks
02-04-2009, 06:17 PM
Nah. You're Welsh. It'd be like kicking a puppy.

Okay, now I'm seeing a good bit of this. For the education of all the colonists, what's wrong with Welsh people? Can we bash them? What about Welsh writers? Does that improve or debase their status?

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 06:19 PM
Whoops.

I'm carrying on a conversation begun on MSN.

Steve and I have an understanding. I mock his Welshness, he continues to believe I'm fabulous.

(For the record, I have nothing against the Welsh. In fact, I have a crush on Michael Sheen, so that proves it:D).

cray
02-04-2009, 06:19 PM
Just like in science, peer review is an important and necessary part of the writing business. But that review should be on the work, not on the person. A particularly pointed negative review of an author's writing is NOT necessarily an attack on the writer as a person, but rather on that writer's written work. There is a huge difference, and it's a line that is usually pretty easy to spot.

This is not a touchy-feely business, and it shouldn't be because we are asking the public to spend their hard-earned money on what we produce. We should all be pushed or pulled toward excellence, even if we are kicking and screaming the whole time. We should also realize that excellence can be subjective in such a creative activity, so differences of opinion on an individual writer's accomplishments will be part of the game.


...and in some cases, an afro is the icing on the cake of an already good post.

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 06:19 PM
If only there was guyliner too...

rhymegirl
02-04-2009, 06:20 PM
Well I look like a dog's bum with a hat on it, so I'm hoping my genius riting style will overcum the publik's desire for beautifulnessosity. :D

A dog's bum with a hat on it. That made me laugh out loud. I already like your writing style.

Perks
02-04-2009, 06:22 PM
Whoops.

I'm carrying on a conversation begun on MSN.

Steve and I have an understanding. I mock his Welshness, he continues to believe I'm fabulous.

(For the record, I have nothing against the Welsh. In fact, I have a crush on Michael Sheen, so that proves it:D).Crap. I wanted a new dog to kick. I guess it won't be a Corgi. ;)

Cranky
02-04-2009, 06:22 PM
If only there was guyliner too...

Well, we can't have everything.

At least he's a gud riter. :D

CaroGirl
02-04-2009, 06:25 PM
If only there was guyliner too...
You want guyliner? Photoshop is your friend. How about a few wrinkles and set of devil horns?

NeuroFizz
02-04-2009, 06:33 PM
There is more soul
in a fro
than in the deepest
reflections of an
irradiant eye
(lined or not)

StevenJ
02-04-2009, 06:34 PM
I'm not really Welsh, you know...My family were Irish for generations, and as the great Spike Milligan once screamed: 'The blood of KINGS runs through the veins of all Irishmen!' :D

One of my ancestors actually was a king of Ireland...sadly, a witch cursed him and he went bonkers, believed he was a bird, lived in a tree and wrote poetry. I'm not making this up, Seamus Heaney wrote about him. :D

Anyway, back on topic: Oh yes, disrespecting authors...Stephenie Meyer...blah blah...Dan Blue Brown etc etc... :D

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 06:35 PM
I'm not really Welsh, you know...My family were Irish for generations, and as the great Spike Milligan once screamed: 'The blood of KINGS runs through the veins of all Irishmen!' :D

One of my ancestors actually was a king of Ireland...sadly, a witch cursed him and he went bonkers, believed he was a bird, lived in a tree and wrote poetry. I'm not making this up, Seamus Heaney wrote about him. :D

Anyway, back on topic: Oh yes, disrespecting authors...Stephenie Meyer...blah blah...Dan Blue Brown etc etc... :D

Steven I've told you before not to take your life experiences and pretend they happened to other people.

Devil Ledbetter
02-04-2009, 06:37 PM
I know some users feel the need to be nasty quite often ... But I'm talking about personal attacks .. not opinions on if a book is great or not.If an author reacts to legitimate criticisms of her book by having public tantrums on her blog, then she's going to be criticized for her behavior. Or if she brags about how little research she did, or how her main character is just a "Mary Sue" for the sex fantasies she has about teenage boys, then yeah, personal criticism is absolutely warranted.

Also, if she poses for a publicity photo wearing lipstick so deep red that her mouth resembles a turkey's ass, then yes, she'll garner personal criticism.

I would point out that if this hypothetical writer's prose was good, she'd be less of a target for personal attacks. (I don't notice anyone talking about how Ewan McGowan looks.) But in the end, we learn more from talking about writing than we do from talking about an author's fashion choices or petulant behaviors. So we should probably try to stick to critical discussion of prose as much as possible.

Hillgate
02-04-2009, 06:48 PM
Jane Austen - dog or kitten?
Charles Dickens - herbert or hunk?
Stephen Hawking - a pretty clever guy
Scarletpeaches - a cross between Gwyneth Paltrow and Kate Winslet

Writers are ugly. Film directors have big hair. Black men have enormous schlongs. The Scots are mean, the Welsh shag sheep. The English play the baddies, the Irish are loopy and the Yanks just love tanks.

Discuss. :)

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 06:56 PM
Jane Austen - dog or kitten?

Whining chicklit author for the 19th century.


Charles Dickens - herbert or hunk?

Herbert, but still kept whatserface Tiernan dangling. A complete shit to his wife, though.


Stephen Hawking - a pretty clever guy

Typical Brit. A smidgeon of success in his chosen field and he adopts a fake American accent.


Scarletpeaches - a cross between Gwyneth Paltrow and Kate Winslet

As long as I don't have to shag Chris Martin or Sam Mendes, I'm happy with that.


Writers are ugly.

Except me.


Film directors have big hair.

Hmm. Do they? I hope you realise I'll be on the lookout for big hair now.


Black men have enormous schlongs.

*waits for Jcomp to post here*


The Scots are mean

How very dare you!


the Welsh shag sheep

I have photos of StevenJ to prove it.


The English play the baddies

Yup. :D


the Irish are loopy

Colin Farrell. Case in point.


the Yanks just love tanks.

And blowing stuff up.


Discuss. :)

I just did! :D

Beach Bunny
02-04-2009, 06:58 PM
Dear god. OFG. You said...you said..."Shite."

My illusions are shattered.

Delete my account. My life on AW is over.

Huh, you should hear Susie.




Not talking about the writing being judged people... Talking about the author themselves!


...clearly not in your own case, but in some others' I believe it does. Jealousy is, after all, a pretty common foible.


Just like in science, peer review is an important and necessary part of the writing business. But that review should be on the work, not on the person. A particularly pointed negative review of an author's writing is NOT necessarily an attack on the writer as a person, but rather on that writer's written work. There is a huge difference, and it's a line that is usually pretty easy to spot.



If an author reacts to legitimate criticisms of her book by having public tantrums on her blog, then she's going to be criticized for her behavior. Or if she brags about how little research she did, or how her main character is just a "Mary Sue" for the sex fantasies she has about teenage boys, then yeah, personal criticism is absolutely warranted.

Also, if she poses for a publicity photo wearing lipstick so deep red that her mouth resembles a turkey's ass, then yes, she'll garner personal criticism.

I would point out that if this hypothetical writer's prose was good, she'd be less of a target for personal attacks. (I don't notice anyone talking about how Ewan McGowan looks.) But in the end, we learn more from talking about writing than we do from talking about an author's fashion choices or petulant behaviors. So we should probably try to stick to critical discussion of prose as much as possible.


A person has to reach a certain level of emotional maturity to be able to differentiate between criticizing someone's work or behavior and criticizing the person. Saying "I don't like this book" is not the same thing as saying "I don't like the author." It's pretty easy to tell when you are dealing with someone who doesn't know the difference. They usually become very defensive about their work or they make statements about the author instead of about the work or the behavior. They also switch the difference in meaning between "I" statements and "you" statements. (I still haven't figured out the why of this one, yet. :rolleyes: )

I tend to ignore or avoid talking to people who have demonstrated this lack of emotional maturity. I've butted my head against that wall too many times to continue doing it. :Shrug:

However, a successful author who hasn't reached this level of emotional maturity is in deep doodoo, there is no way for them to avoid criticism of their work or their behavior if they blog or otherwise show themselves publicly. It doesn't matter how something is said, they are going to get their knickers in a twist. :Shrug:

Shadow_Ferret
02-04-2009, 07:02 PM
Wow, I cannot get over the many threads that often turn into author bashing.
What happened to the rule of respecting the fellow author?
Its fine not to like a book.. But when it gets down to making personal attacks on the author or calling the book s*i*, personally I think thats a tad much or talking about the authors personal life and looks. Just my opinion but would like hears yours on it.
That rule only applies to forum members including known authors who frequent this site.

Everyone else is fair game for bashing. :)

Wayne K
02-04-2009, 07:03 PM
Black men have enormous schlongs.
Discuss. :)


Pics?

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 07:04 PM
If/when I'm published I welcome all bashing, because you have to learn to take it if you dish it out.

As long as - and here's the main point - such bashination is genuine and not merely a knee-jerk response to any criticism I have doled out.

"You are teh badz writar, you dissed Stephanie u iz just teh jealouss!!!!!!!111one!!!1"

Shadow_Ferret
02-04-2009, 07:07 PM
You mean it just can't be my normal bashing of you?

I have to be original now?

Bubastes
02-04-2009, 07:07 PM
However, a successful author who hasn't reached this level of emotional maturity is in deep doodoo, there is no way for them to avoid criticism of their work or their behavior if they blog or otherwise show themselves publicly. It doesn't matter how something is said, they are going to get their knickers in a twist. :Shrug:

Exhibit A: Anne Rice.

Mr Flibble
02-04-2009, 07:11 PM
If/when I'm published I welcome all bashing, because you have to learn to take it if you dish it out.

As long as - and here's the main point - such bashination is genuine and not merely a knee-jerk response to any criticism I have doled out.

"You are teh badz writar, you dissed Stephanie u iz just teh jealouss!!!!!!!111one!!!1"


When you get published I'm going to make a myspace page on how jealous u iz of leik everyone!!!

Shadow_Ferret
02-04-2009, 07:13 PM
However, a successful author who hasn't reached this level of emotional maturity is in deep doodoo, there is no way for them to avoid criticism of their work or their behavior if they blog or otherwise show themselves publicly. It doesn't matter how something is said, they are going to get their knickers in a twist. :Shrug:
Hmm. Well, first, I'm not successful, so I haven't reach that level of maturity yet.

Second, if I were to become successful, I'd just avoid reading any opinions of my work, totally, and I'd probably resign from this site as well.

I'm as thin skinned at they come.

Williebee
02-04-2009, 07:13 PM
I'm with DonRoc. Buy the book. Say whatever the hell you want about me.

Just buy the book.

:)

Beach Bunny
02-04-2009, 07:18 PM
I'm with DonRoc. Buy the book. Say whatever the hell you want about me.

Just buy the book.

:)
You wrote a book?

Who knew.

Is it any good?

*ducking and running*

Sheryl Nantus
02-04-2009, 07:24 PM
I'd love to have people make fun of my writing.

Because then they'd have to actually buy the book.

:D

Perks
02-04-2009, 07:28 PM
I know you guys are mostly kidding, but I would hate to have any significant portion of the readers out there write me off as a naked emperor.

I know very well that everyone won't like what I write, but if too many people form the opinion that I'm the talentless spawn of media whoring and poor taste, then I would be miserable.

Ol' Fashioned Girl
02-04-2009, 07:34 PM
I'm with DonRoc. Buy the book. Say whatever the hell you want about me.

Just buy the book.

:)

Amen!

Shadow_Ferret
02-04-2009, 07:40 PM
I know you guys are mostly kidding, but I would hate to have any significant portion of the readers out there write me off as a naked emperor.

I know very well that everyone won't like what I write, but if too many people form the opinion that I'm the talentless spawn of media whoring and poor taste, then I would be miserable.
I'm just talentless hack. I know that, but I don't want to hear it. And I leave the media whoring to others.

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 10:55 PM
When you get published I'm going to make a myspace page on how jealous u iz of leik everyone!!!

And I will TOTES go Anne Rice batshit on your ass!!!

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 10:59 PM
And I will TOTES go Anne Rice batshit on your ass!!!

?

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 11:01 PM
Someone criticised one of her books on Amazon and she SERIOUSLY flipped out. I mean, REALLY. Personal insults, calling the intelligence of the reviewer into question, saying, "You just don't understand me! You're not clever enough!"

It was so funny it was borderline, "WTF?"

I'll see if I can find a link anywhere because I think she subsequently took the rant down from Amazon but someone, somewhere is bound to have screenshotted it.

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 11:01 PM
Someone criticised one of her books on Amazon and she SERIOUSLY flipped out. I mean, REALLY. Personal insults, calling the intelligence of the reviewer into question, saying, "You just don't understand me! You're not clever enough!"

It was so funny it was borderline, "WTF?"

I'll see if I can find a link anywhere because I think she subsequently took the rant down from Amazon but someone, somewhere is bound to have screenshotted it.

Good way to appeal to current and new fans... Geez!

StevenJ
02-04-2009, 11:02 PM
Bloody hell, while I appreciate that that Nuttymadam person is perhaps overzealous in her love of all things Meyer, I thought the Youtube comments about her (NM) were really hurtful & unnecessary. :(

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 11:03 PM
She set the benchmark for online flip-outs. Even Stephenie Meyer couldn't measure up to that.

It was...well, a sight to behold.

I'll stop there, and go find a link if I can.

ETA: Was replying to brainstorm77, not the sockless Welshman.

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 11:05 PM
I read Interview With The Vampire years ago and that was it. I thought it was ok. Have yet to look at the Twilight Series but I am curious to see what the mass appeal is?

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 11:06 PM
Bloody hell, while I appreciate that that Nuttymadam person is perhaps overzealous in her love of all things Meyer, I thought the Youtube comments about her (NM) were really hurtful & unnecessary. :(

link?

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 11:07 PM
I am mystified, is all I'll say on that one. ;)

Interview with the Vampire is one of my favourite books. I've read a couple more in Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles but the quality seriously tails off after The Vampire Lestat in my opinion - in fact it took me a fortnight to get through TVL.

That said, I also enjoyed Rice's The Mummy and Cry to Heaven, which are standalones. And I believe KTC raves about The Feast of All Saints.

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 11:08 PM
link?

I linked to nuttymadam's YouTube page back on page one of this thread. (I think it was p.1 anyway).

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 11:09 PM
I would have to say if I was published and held such a high profile... I don't think I would get off like that ..... It obviously did nothing for her public image.

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 11:09 PM
I linked to nuttymadam's YouTube page back on page one of this thread. (I think it was p.1 anyway).

Thanks I will look.

KTC
02-04-2009, 11:13 PM
And I believe KTC raves about The Feast of All Saints.

Non-stop. I see it as a work of art. I think it should be taught in the classroom. One of my all time favourite books.

StevenJ
02-04-2009, 11:16 PM
Sorry, my mistake - I was looking at another of NM's videos & noticed the negative comments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdeAEso9p0Y&feature=channel_page

KTC
02-04-2009, 11:21 PM
I must add, in the spirit of the thread, that I wouldn't waste a fart on any of Rice's last 8 books or so.

Devil Ledbetter
02-04-2009, 11:34 PM
Isn't it easy to slip into criticism of the writer when you're criticizing the work?

I'm reading a book right now that I'm not liking much, and I find myself thinking things likes "Why did the author wait until page 100 to deliver the conflict?" "Doesn't the author know any other gestures beside eye rolling and sighing?" "Why does the author make the characters bicker instead of delivering real conflict or plot tension?" "Why does the author always cop out on the major conflicts she foreshadows?' "How come the one character is always carrying the other character from place to place like she's a toddler?" Then I start to wonder, does the author have romantic fantasies about being carried around?

But the same kind of thinking applies when I'm praising a book, too: the author was clever or brilliant or wonderfully devious when this or that happened.

Is it possible to discuss a book without bringing the author up?

brainstorm77
02-04-2009, 11:35 PM
Sorry, my mistake - I was looking at another of NM's videos & noticed the negative comments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdeAEso9p0Y&feature=channel_page

What is wrong with that person?

Medievalist
02-04-2009, 11:35 PM
Not talking about the writing being judged people... Talking about the author themselves!

Links please?

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 11:36 PM
Very difficult DL. As I said in another thread recently, it's next to impossible to write a book without putting something of yourself in it. In fact it IS impossible. There. I said it.

That doesn't mean if I write about a violent murder that I harbour homicidal tendencies, though. ;)

Medievalist
02-04-2009, 11:37 PM
Whoops.

I'm carrying on a conversation begun on MSN.

Steve and I have an understanding. I mock his Welshness, he continues to believe I'm fabulous.

(For the record, I have nothing against the Welsh. In fact, I have a crush on Michael Sheen, so that proves it:D).

OY!

No mocking the Celts!

It's almost St. Davids Day, ya know.

Pagey's_Girl
02-04-2009, 11:52 PM
.....Is it possible to discuss a book without bringing the author up?

Maybe not. Because ultimately, there's a human being behind that book - a human being with likes and dislikes, fantasies, dreams, experiences, opinions, interests and perceptions that he or she is bringing into play to create the story. Every author as something of him or herself in their works. It's only human on the reader's part to wonder "where did he come up with that? Why does she keep having this happen? What was he thinking having this character do that in this situation?" I think it's even harder to distance the writer from the book when you're a writer yourself, because each of us knows how our own mind works when we're writing - and it's only natural to start wondering what the heck this person was thinking, too.

ETA - all my babbling and Scarlet put it so much more succinctly...

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 11:53 PM
OY!

No mocking the Celts!

It's almost St. Davids Day, ya know.

I'm not mocking ALL Celts. Just StevenJ, which, you have to admit, is almost too easy...:D

Beach Bunny
02-04-2009, 11:53 PM
Isn't it easy to slip into criticism of the writer when you're criticizing the work?

I'm reading a book right now that I'm not liking much, and I find myself thinking things likes "Why did the author wait until page 100 to deliver the conflict?" "Doesn't the author know any other gestures beside eye rolling and sighing?" "Why does the author make the characters bicker instead of delivering real conflict or plot tension?" "Why does the author always cop out on the major conflicts she foreshadows?' "How come the one character is always carrying the other character from place to place like she's a toddler?" Then I start to wonder, does the author have romantic fantasies about being carried around?

But the same kind of thinking applies when I'm praising a book, too: the author was clever or brilliant or wonderfully devious when this or that happened.

Is it possible to discuss a book without bringing the author up?
All of those questions are about the author's actions or feelings, not about the author's character or self. Actions can be changed. Fantasies can be changed.

If the thought was the author must be a pervert because he/she has character A carrying character B around like a toddler, then you have made a value judgement about the author's character or self. That's when one crosses the line into attacking the author himself(herself) and not commenting on the work.

StevenJ
02-04-2009, 11:56 PM
I'm not mocking ALL Celts. Just StevenJ, which, you have to admit, is almost too easy...:D

YOUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED, SCARPERS!!!
Well, according to my Twilight calendar they are... :D

http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/1700000/Borders-Twilight-Calendar-twilight-series-1701491-559-558.jpg

scarletpeaches
02-04-2009, 11:58 PM
Mmm, rpattz and Jackson Rathbone...*drools*

StevenJ
02-05-2009, 12:04 AM
Mr Pattz looks absolutely thrilled to be there, doesn't he? ;):D

Medievalist
02-05-2009, 12:05 AM
It's also risky to venture too much into the author's intention, that is, to identify the words, concepts, thoughts and ideas presented in the work as being representative of the author.

They might. They might not, and there's the problem too that the "book" the work, is something that exists, to some extent, as a joint creation of the reader and the writer.

Every reader at some level interprets a work differently. And as readers, as we change, so too might the way we read.

Devil Ledbetter
02-05-2009, 12:07 AM
All of those questions are about the author's actions or feelings, not about the author's character or self. Actions can be changed. Fantasies can be changed. So attacking the author would be more along the lines of "Damn, her arms look fat in that publicity photo." Sure, she could change her arms or the angles from which she allows herself to be photographed, that but in any case it's got zilch to do with the actual writing.

It's nice to know I'm not attacking the author if I say "I think it's cheesy the way she uses dreams to foreshadow things in the story."

Thanks, BBunny.

Devil Ledbetter
02-05-2009, 12:11 AM
It's also risky to venture too much into the author's intention, that is, to identify the words, concepts, thoughts and ideas presented in the work as being representative of the author.
That's a good point. My characters do a lot of things that I don't do and wouldn't care to do. They make decisions I wouldn't make and they hold values that differ from my own.

If they didn't, they'd be MarySue's.

Of course if I said one of my characters was a stand-in for me, then I'd be inviting the reader to speculate that I wanted the same things that character did.

brainstorm77
02-05-2009, 12:11 AM
So attacking the author would be more along the lines of "Damn, her arms look fat in that publicity photo." Sure, she could change her arms or the angles from which she allows herself to be photographed, that but in any case it's got zilch to do with the actual writing.

It's nice to know I'm not attacking the author if I say "I think it's cheesy the way she uses dreams to foreshadow things in the story."

Thanks, BBunny.

HEY!!! Sometimes my arms look fat in pics!!

rhymegirl
02-05-2009, 12:14 AM
Shouldn't this thread be in Roundtable?

Devil Ledbetter
02-05-2009, 12:14 AM
HEY!!! Sometimes my arms look fat in pics!!
:D I was referring to a Smeyer publicity pic that got lampooned in some Twilight thread around here. It was a poor choice of pic, but had nothing to do with the book.

brainstorm77
02-05-2009, 12:20 AM
:D I was referring to a Smeyer publicity pic that got lampooned in some Twilight thread around here. It was a poor choice of pic, but had nothing to do with the book.

Oh I know, everyone photographs better from different angles :)

Pagey's_Girl
02-05-2009, 12:20 AM
It's nice to know I'm not attacking the author if I say "I think it's cheesy the way she uses dreams to foreshadow things in the story."

I only did that once. *pouts* (Just kidding - although I did. And, yeah, it was cheesy on purpose. But gourmet cheesy, not powdered Velveeta. :D)

Seriously, though, that's a good point. It's the difference between saying that "her writing echoes every bad romantic cliche ever conceived" and "she writes that kind of romantic fantasy crap because she's so fat and ugly that no guy in his right mind would want be seen with unless they both had bags over their heads!"

brainstorm77
02-05-2009, 12:23 AM
I only did that once. *pouts* (Just kidding - although I did. And, yeah, it was cheesy on purpose. But gourmet cheesy, not powdered Velveeta. :D)

Seriously, though, that's a good point. It's the difference between saying that "her writing echoes every bad romantic cliche ever conceived" and "she writes that kind of romantic fantasy crap because she's so fat and ugly that no guy in his right mind would want be seen with unless they both had bags over their heads!"

Reminds me of this .. http://kbgbabbles.blogspot.com/2009/02/teleflora-super-bowl-commercial-fails.html

Alot of romance fans are upset by the commercial, I thought it was funny.

Devil Ledbetter
02-05-2009, 12:26 AM
The guy carrying the girl around ... that's a romance novel thing?

No wonder it bugged me.

brainstorm77
02-05-2009, 12:27 AM
The guy carrying the girl around ... that's a romance novel thing?

No wonder it bugged me.

Funny *SIGH* if only :)

StevenJ
02-05-2009, 12:31 AM
The guy carrying the girl around ... that's a romance novel thing?

The times they are a'changing...as you can see in this modern-day romance, Bella is carrying RPattz around, like some kind of sparkly backpack. :D

http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/1700000/Borders-Twilight-Calendar-twilight-series-1701491-559-558.jpg

brainstorm77
02-05-2009, 12:32 AM
Chances are I could probably carry the guy around :)

Pagey's_Girl
02-05-2009, 12:43 AM
Given the way I'm built, I probably could, too...

Beach Bunny
02-05-2009, 03:53 AM
It's also risky to venture too much into the author's intention, that is, to identify the words, concepts, thoughts and ideas presented in the work as being representative of the author.

They might. They might not, and there's the problem too that the "book" the work, is something that exists, to some extent, as a joint creation of the reader and the writer.

Every reader at some level interprets a work differently. And as readers, as we change, so too might the way we read.

I know that I have changed the way that I read. Books and movies that I really loved years ago, no longer interest me. Sometimes it is also a mood thing.


So attacking the author would be more along the lines of "Damn, her arms look fat in that publicity photo." Sure, she could change her arms or the angles from which she allows herself to be photographed, that but in any case it's got zilch to do with the actual writing.

It's nice to know I'm not attacking the author if I say "I think it's cheesy the way she uses dreams to foreshadow things in the story."

Thanks, BBunny.

:) ... It's not an attack for two reasons. 1. You're expressing your opinion and 2. The opinion is about how she has done something in her work.

Stlight
02-05-2009, 08:39 AM
I think part of the problem is that we are told way too much about the private lives of authors. Yes, this sort of publicity took its bite out of the music industry and for some reason Publishers and pr departments think it will be good for writing. I don’t want to know what the author cares about, let them choose their charities or not and keep quiet about it. But them I’m the person who soooo doesn’t want to know how an author looks. The point being, if the author/publisher/pr department opens the door, they have to expect people to walk inside.

MHO

Silver King
02-06-2009, 03:42 AM
Shouldn't this thread be in Roundtable?
I was thinking the same thing; and since the discussion has lost some steam in Office Party, we'll see if the good folks in Roundtable have anything new to share.

Brindle Chase
02-06-2009, 04:00 AM
...just between us, "some" of the published and highly-successful author bashing probably stems from jealousy ;-)


*nodding*... though they all emphatically deny such. I agree with Brainstorm. There is a little too much author bashing and there is a difference between that and book bashing. Although bashing a book is pretty childish too. Bashing anything is. If you don't have anything nice to say, shut your trap. =) There is a difference between constructive criticism and bashing as well. Maturity versus immaturity. Helpful versus mean.

I look at it this way, in the professional world, professionals do not bash other professionals. Those that do, quickly find themselves without allies, support and eventually, without a job. If I were an agent or editor and I saw some of the posts here, I would add those names to my "do not sign, no matter what." list ... writing them off as a publicist nightmare.

Imagine being an editor where one of your authors publically bashes another of your authors? Now imagine the same scenario but as an agent. Humiliating!

King can get away with bashing Meyers or anyone for that matter, but if you're a new or unpublished author, it could be career suicide. I wouldn't recommend it. Besides, its just plain childish to begin with.

Virector
02-06-2009, 10:39 AM
If you don't have anything nice to say, shut your trap.

It would be a pretty crappy world to live in if people only ever opened their mouths to sing praise. Why shouldn't you speak out if you think something is garbage? Like someone said in an earlier post, if you don't have a thick skin, then you should probably back away from the writing industry if you don't want people to tell you your writing is not good. You can't please everyone, and people will only become more critical of both you and your writing the more successful you become. If you can't deal with it now (unless you're already a famous somebody) then I would advise you to start re-thinking your prospects. That sounds a tad harsh, but its the truth.

There are different types of people in this world-- there are those who get bashed and drop to their knees defeated and upset, then there are those who get bashed, dust themselves off and continue to do their best. Only the latter will prevail in the writing industry.

scarletpeaches
02-06-2009, 02:42 PM
...Like someone said in an earlier post, if you don't have a thick skin, then you should probably back away from the writing industry if you don't want people to tell you your writing is not good...

That was me. You just agreed with scarletpeaches.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :D

scarletpeaches
02-06-2009, 02:44 PM
*nodding*... though they all emphatically deny such.

They deny it because it's not true.

Are you seriously suggesting that if one writer criticises another's work, they're jealous? In every case? I mean, come on! Do you deny the fact it could be because the writing breaks the rules, or doesn't grip the reader, or the first writer just plain old has his own opinion and doesn't like it?

Because - for as long as there's free speech in this world, you are allowed to not like a book, you know.

If someone says, "You dissed me, you're just jealous!" that's a very ready excuse not to work on their own writing and go lick their wounds instead.

I look at it this way; some people who just want to be nicey-nice all the time and only ever hear praise accuse those who are more forthcoming in their opinions of jealousy to hide the fact they're too scared to speak up.

If all you ever want to hear is praise, join a support group. Writers need a thick skin. If you can't take criticism, this is the wrong job for you.

Zoombie
02-06-2009, 03:06 PM
<_<

>_>

I'm jealous of the money. Oh god, how I am jealous of the money.

Can we work out some kind of thing where I get the money, the fame, AND get to put my own prose in?

scarletpeaches
02-06-2009, 03:11 PM
Yes. I think it's called...

Hmm...

"Writing a werewolf romance with zombies, getting it published and watching the money roll in."

Good luck!

(Oh, and I've just remembered something else - if it was jealousy of success, no successful author would garner praise on this board. King, Rowling and others all do, so...it's more to do with the story and quality of writing than whinging about success. After all, as I've always said, it's not a zero-sum game. Rowling making a mint doesn't kill off my chances of being published. My own bad writing does that itself).

Zoombie
02-06-2009, 03:18 PM
Peaches, you're a genius!

I shall dust off my Zombieocalplice romantic comedy set in 1950s Louisiana. It was called...uh...Black and White Zombie Nation, I think.

Ken
02-06-2009, 03:40 PM
don't say anything*[/I]. (*my alteration, italics)

agreee :-)
(One can offer constructive critisism and be nice about it.)

e.g.

An Author (John): "Mary had a little lamb whose fleece were white as the full moon."

Critiquer #1: WTF are you stoned or something? This sentence of yours is almost identical to that stupid a** nursery rhyme. Are you not capable of coming up with something more original -- and INTELLIGENT?!!!

Critiquer #2: It's an interesting line, but it may be a bit too similar to that neat nursery rhyme. So maybe you might want to change it to something like "Mary had a small ...." Good luck. You're definitely on the right path.

Exagerated extremes to be sure but I have witnessed numerous instances that come pretty close to the first. One doesn't have to wear kid gloves when critiquing an author's works, but just as the OP says to be respectful, just as one would be if they were face to face with them in meatspace.

StevenJ
02-06-2009, 04:28 PM
For what it's worth, in my experience writers are fair-minded and polite critics. I've found not a few poets to be elitist, superior and condescending.*

This is in no way a generalisation; I'm only speaking from my experiences with both literary sets.

*I'd like to qualify my remarks by stating that they don't refer to any AW poets...I don't know any of them, actually, so I could hardly comment on them. :D

Bartholomew
02-06-2009, 04:36 PM
Wow, I cannot get over the many threads that often turn into author bashing.
What happened to the rule of respecting the fellow author?
Its fine not to like a book.. But when it gets down to making personal attacks on the author or calling the book s*i*, personally I think thats a tad much or talking about the authors personal life and looks. Just my opinion but would like hears yours on it.


You're allowed to not like books.

I feel free to diss the ones I don't and praise the ones I do.

If you (in general, not the OP personally) don't have a thick skin when it comes to criticism, you're probably not cut out for this game.

I'll always call bad writing out and feel no guilt for doing so.

You're both right. I think the OP just wants to know where the majority of us draw the line between criticism and bashing.

brainstorm77
02-06-2009, 04:51 PM
This thread was about bashing the authors.. not their books... some like certain books others hate them... movin on.....

StevenJ
02-06-2009, 04:53 PM
*Bashes Brainstorm* :D :D

brainstorm77
02-06-2009, 04:53 PM
*Bashes Brainstorm* :D :D

Be careful, I just may like it :)

firedrake
02-06-2009, 05:18 PM
Be careful, I just may like it :)

Careful, we're talking about a man who lives in a place where men are men and sheep are nervous.:D

StevenJ
02-06-2009, 06:02 PM
:D It's all lies, folks!

*strokes woolly bobblehat*

Beach Bunny
02-06-2009, 06:11 PM
I look at it this way; some people who just want to be nicey-nice all the time and only ever hear praise accuse those who are more forthcoming in their opinions of jealousy to hide the fact they're too scared to speak up.


It is possible to be nice and forthcoming with one's opinion. We are writers. We use words to communicate. We choose words to make an impact on the reader. In this situation, I don't see any justification for choosing words which have a mean impact. Even when some asshole really deserves getting punched in the face, there is a way to communicate without descending to a lower level of the evolutionary chain. :)

As demonstrated by Ken:



(One can offer constructive critisism and be nice about it.)

e.g.

An Author (John): "Mary had a little lamb whose fleece were white as the full moon."

Critiquer #1: WTF are you stoned or something? This sentence of yours is almost identical to that stupid a** nursery rhyme. Are you not capable of coming up with something more original -- and INTELLIGENT?!!!

Critiquer #2: It's an interesting line, but it may be a bit too similar to that neat nursery rhyme. So maybe you might want to change it to something like "Mary had a small ...." Good luck. You're definitely on the right path.

Exagerated extremes to be sure but I have witnessed numerous instances that come pretty close to the first. One doesn't have to wear kid gloves when critiquing an author's works, but just as the OP says to be respectful, just as one would be if they were face to face with them in meatspace.
The second example is respectful, the first is not. They communicate the same thing: change the opening line it sounds too much like "Mary had a little lamb" ...

People will more readily listen to the second example than the first. Unless you enjoy wasting your breath and your time, it doesn't make sense to me to talk to someone in a way that won't be heard. :Shrug:

scarletpeaches
02-06-2009, 06:50 PM
...Critiquer #1: WTF are you stoned or something? This sentence of yours is almost identical to that stupid a** nursery rhyme. Are you not capable of coming up with something more original -- and INTELLIGENT?!!!

Critiquer #2: It's an interesting line, but it may be a bit too similar to that neat nursery rhyme. So maybe you might want to change it to something like "Mary had a small ...." Good luck. You're definitely on the right path.

Such examples would be appropriate if folks on AW only ever went to one of the two above extremes, but they don't. Then again, as you said, they are exaggerated.

Example #1 is rude, sure enough. Example #2 on the other hand is sugary sweet. The "good luck, you're definitely on the right path" attitude is more dishonest in my view because if someone's writing is shite, then you have to tell them.

Okay, maybe not everyone is blunt enough to say "Your writing is shite."

Even then it would be more helpful to say, "Your writing is shite and here's how to improve it."

But to tell someone they're doing well and on the right path when they quite clearly are not, is a lie.


...just as the OP says to be respectful, just as one would be if they were face to face with them in meatspace.

That's the thing with people like me. We would say it in meatspace.


People will more readily listen to the second example than the first.

Really? Can't say I've noticed that myself. I'd rather have a blunt critique than a sugared-up one.


Unless you enjoy wasting your breath and your time, it doesn't make sense to me to talk to someone in a way that won't be heard. :Shrug:

It's not 'wasting your breath' if people listen. Maybe you prefer nicer critiques and wouldn't listen to the brutally honest ones but there are plenty of people - like me and others - who don't do frills. I could name one but won't (*coughSamantha'sSongcough*) and I respect the hell out of her for that because she doesn't do bullshit.

To me, fannying about with "Perhaps you could change this," or, "This is rather to similar to..." is wasting time. Cut to the chase, tell me what's wrong so I can fix it (and yes, it is possible to be blunt without being abusive) and I'll get to it.

firedrake
02-06-2009, 06:59 PM
It's not 'wasting your breath' if people listen. Maybe you prefer nicer critiques and wouldn't listen to the brutally honest ones but there are plenty of people - like me and others - who don't do frills. I could name one but won't (*coughSamantha'sSongcough*) and I respect the hell out of her for that because she doesn't do bullshit.

To me, fannying about with "Perhaps you could change this," or, "This is rather to similar to..." is wasting time. Cut to the chase, tell me what's wrong so I can fix it (and yes, it is possible to be blunt without being abusive) and I'll get to it.

I couldn't agree more. I don't do bullshit and I don't like it. *coughSamantha'sSongcough* does the kind of critique that is needed. If you're going to write and put yourself out there, grow a thick skin, because your work won't meet with universal acclaim. If there's something wrong with my writing, I want the truth not a pat on the back and a soft soap routine because, ultimately, if and when I get it right, praise from critics who are blunt would mean a damn sight more.

scarletpeaches
02-06-2009, 07:00 PM
Christ. Someone else agreeing with me. This can't be right.

*looks over shoulder and trembles*

ETA: And firedrake, I have to say you hit the nail on the head there. If I am praised by someone who's normally blunt, brutally honest and completely bullshit-free, I know because they've been honest in the past, chances are they're being honest now - and that makes their praise so much more valuable. Warm and fuzzy people lean towards the dishonest if they pat everyone on the head no matter how good or bad the writing is.

Bufty
02-06-2009, 07:03 PM
Give someone a crit that is 99% honest and critical, then end it by saying (simply as a sweetener)"Great stuff, and you are on the right track" that last phrase will invariably be the one focused on and remembered.

StevenJ
02-06-2009, 07:12 PM
http://jmn.fadainc.com/funnypics/derailment.jpg

Scarlettyyyyyy...I sent you a pm today. It contains my bank details & PIN number*. Please read & reply. Over.



*Not strictly true.

scarletpeaches
02-06-2009, 07:23 PM
Yes, I know, SheepMan. I'm considering my reply carefully, so your brain* doesn't explode upon reading.

*I use that term loosely.

Ken
02-06-2009, 07:46 PM
…can’t speak for others, but I know that for myself I am much more likely to carry out someone’s suggestions and give what they say serious consideration if they speak courteously and take my feelings into account when critiquing something I’ve written. That way, even if I walk away knowing that my story needs work, or major overhaul, I still walk away feeling optimistic and motivated to improve :-)

Blunt critiques on the other hand that are speckled an occasional jeer have the opposite effect on me. Though the advise may be right on the mark, I become unmotivated and lose interest in my story and in writing in general.

Again, this is just my own, individual experience. I can not speak for others, though I suspect I may not be entirely alone in this. If my thin-tending skin is a personal flaw, which it well may be, I can only hope that it will not impede me from succeeding as a writer and that I will still be able to make the sorts of improvements that are required to be published.

More likely this will not be the case, and I will be left to wander through bookstore aisles browsing through novels of authors who are not only talented – but tough.

Beach Bunny
02-06-2009, 07:54 PM
Really? Can't say I've noticed that myself. I'd rather have a blunt critique than a sugared-up one.

It's not 'wasting your breath' if people listen. Maybe you prefer nicer critiques and wouldn't listen to the brutally honest ones but there are plenty of people - like me and others - who don't do frills. I could name one but won't (*coughSamantha'sSongcough*) and I respect the hell out of her for that because she doesn't do bullshit.

To me, fannying about with "Perhaps you could change this," or, "This is rather to similar to..." is wasting time. Cut to the chase, tell me what's wrong so I can fix it (and yes, it is possible to be blunt without being abusive) and I'll get to it.


I couldn't agree more. I don't do bullshit and I don't like it. *coughSamantha'sSongcough* does the kind of critique that is needed. If you're going to write and put yourself out there, grow a thick skin, because your work won't meet with universal acclaim. If there's something wrong with my writing, I want the truth not a pat on the back and a soft soap routine because, ultimately, if and when I get it right, praise from critics who are blunt would mean a damn sight more.

So, because I am nice and courteous to people when I critique them, my opinion is worth less than someone who is mean and nasty in their critiques? Is that what you two are saying? Well, you can stick your nasty little opinions about me where the sun don't shine. In other words: Sit on it and rotate. :)

scarletpeaches
02-06-2009, 08:00 PM
So, because I am nice and courteous to people when I critique them, my opinion is worth less than someone who is mean and nasty in their critiques? Is that what you two are saying?

I don't know. Is it? You seem to have all the answers and subtext worked out.

Maybe one day you'll realise that blunt and honest =/= mean and nasty.


Well, you can stick your nasty little opinions about me where the sun don't shine. In other words: Sit on it and rotate. :)

Quite.

firedrake
02-06-2009, 08:07 PM
So, because I am nice and courteous to people when I critique them, my opinion is worth less than someone who is mean and nasty in their critiques? Is that what you two are saying? Well, you can stick your nasty little opinions about me where the sun don't shine. In other words: Sit on it and rotate. :)

Where did I say mean and nasty? I believe I said "blunt". There's a difference there, unless I'm reading the wrong dictionary.

Roger J Carlson
02-06-2009, 08:17 PM
So, because I am nice and courteous to people when I critique them, my opinion is worth less than someone who is mean and nasty in their critiques? Is that what you two are saying? Well, you can stick your nasty little opinions about me where the sun don't shine. In other words: Sit on it and rotate. :)Hmmmmm. Is this your "nice and courteous" way of critiquing Scarlet and firedrake?

tehuti88
02-06-2009, 08:41 PM
It is possible to be nice and forthcoming with one's opinion. We are writers. We use words to communicate. We choose words to make an impact on the reader. In this situation, I don't see any justification for choosing words which have a mean impact. Even when some asshole really deserves getting punched in the face, there is a way to communicate without descending to a lower level of the evolutionary chain. :)

As demonstrated by Ken:


The second example is respectful, the first is not. They communicate the same thing: change the opening line it sounds too much like "Mary had a little lamb" ...

People will more readily listen to the second example than the first. Unless you enjoy wasting your breath and your time, it doesn't make sense to me to talk to someone in a way that won't be heard. :Shrug:

I think the danger in the way this thread is turning out is that people are insisting on ONE way or ANOTHER way ONLY for people to take/give criticism. We're all different. Some people like bluntness. Some people thrive on courtesy. Me, I prefer courtesy, and I agree with Beach Bunny's points. Courtesy is NOT the same as patting somebody on the shoulder and being sugar-sweet and insisting everything they do is perfect, and anyone thinking it means that is deluded. (Yes, I said it. I've never understood the people who think that being courteous and tactful must mean you're lying through your teeth. One can be honest AND tactful--they're not mutually exclusive.)

Back when I first came online in 2000, I posted a novel of mine for critique and somebody promised to do so. They started out with some harsh criticism which very quickly devolved into personal attacks and various pseudonymous postings along the lines of "This writer's work is the literary equivalent of diaper wipings!" and "I loved it!--signed, Britney Spears." I told the "critic" that whatever point they were trying to make was getting lost on me in the thick morass of their sarcasm. They didn't listen (in fact they claimed that editors weren't likely to be all sugary and nice, as if I was even asking for that), and I repeatedly had to ban them from my site. Took weeks for them to finally lose interest. As for me, I lost all faith in that story for years and did no more work on it.

It's only been in the past year or so that I've gathered the courage to look back on my story and see what's wrong with it. You know what? The "critic" offered a few good points. The thing is, they were so hidden in all the excessive sarcasm that I completely missed them--FOR YEARS. If this person had been COURTEOUS in their criticism, I would have noticed the flaws in this story a LOT sooner.

We all work differently. Some of us need bluntness. But for some others of us, bluntness just obscures the issue. We need courtesy--which can be given with criticism. Nobody argues that plants need water. A redwood can handle a huge amount of water. But would you pour a truckload of water on a tiny shoot to try to get it to grow? And then be surprised when it drowns?

Claudia Gray
02-06-2009, 08:51 PM
Different people respond to different kinds of critique. Some people need a pretty thorough thrashing, can take a lot of sarcasm and even thrive on it. Other people need critiques to be gentler in order to listen to them. The second group aren't necessarily bad at taking criticism, either -- it's just a difference in what works for different people. (I'm personally somewhere in the middle.)

One of the first things I do when I beta for someone is ask them what level of critique they are comfortable with. Does this mean I don't point out what I think are problems for people who want a gentler touch? Absolutely not. I'm thorough, regardless. But I'm not critting them to admire my own cleverness; I'm doing this as a favor for them, and that means giving them the kind of critique they can make the best use of.

Tirjasdyn
02-06-2009, 09:13 PM
It is possible to be nice and forthcoming with one's opinion. We are writers. We use words to communicate. We choose words to make an impact on the reader. In this situation, I don't see any justification for choosing words which have a mean impact. Even when some asshole really deserves getting punched in the face, there is a way to communicate without descending to a lower level of the evolutionary chain. :)

The second example is respectful, the first is not. They communicate the same thing: change the opening line it sounds too much like "Mary had a little lamb" ...

People will more readily listen to the second example than the first. Unless you enjoy wasting your breath and your time, it doesn't make sense to me to talk to someone in a way that won't be heard.

While the second example is well done it only applies to work in progress.

Criticism takes two forms. First to help authors refine their craft and Second to analyze a finished work. Generally in the second iteration the author is considered out of the picture and no longer relevant to the piece. Lit Crit is a dark tunnel from which there is no return.

Having said that I haven't seen any author bashing except when an author does something horrible stupid as in Ann Rice at Amazon.

But lets take this to author then:

What gets me is that Meyer has an English Degree...didn't she take lit crit or at least one writing class?

You come out those one of three ways: You never write again. You continue to write better with a much thicker skin or you write and never learn a thing.

My mind wanders to the last point. Now have I attacked Meyer? No. I have just suggested she did not take away the same experience I did from my English degree. From my pov it's an honest question. But to others it would be an attack.

I guess my point is the line is gray at most. I know nothing about Meyer except what she presents in her books and in her back page bio. I don't think she's a bad person, I know nothing of her mothering skill, and really I don't know or care if she likes cheese. Sometimes you have to be blunt. If nothing can be done with a scene you to have tell a person to throw it out. Usually the first time you tell a person this, they cry. Maybe not in front of you but later.

I see it all the time. I expect them to be as upfront with me. Otherwise we will not get anywhere with our writing.

brainstorm77
02-06-2009, 09:19 PM
Careful, we're talking about a man who lives in a place where men are men and sheep are nervous.:D

haha :)

KikiteNeko
02-06-2009, 09:24 PM
Do you mean authors on AW or authors in general?

Because there's like a whole anti-Meyer thread on here somewhere that got closed down, but I haven't seen an anti-AW-author thread.

StevenJ
02-06-2009, 09:25 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/lslneon/ATIME4.png

:D :D

brainstorm77
02-06-2009, 09:25 PM
Do you mean authors on AW or authors in general?

Because there's like a whole anti-Meyer thread on here somewhere that got closed down, but I haven't seen an anti-AW-author thread.

In general

brainstorm77
02-06-2009, 09:26 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v73/lslneon/ATIME4.png

:D :D

Oh My! Where do you get this stuff? :)

KikiteNeko
02-06-2009, 09:28 PM
In general

Hm... Well I don't think I've ever "bashed" an author's hair, personal life, pet kitten, mom, etc... But when they ask for a critique I have been known to be brutal I'm sure. But that's an "if you can't stand the heat..." situation there. When I posted my work up here back in the day, I expected the same treatment.

kuwisdelu
02-06-2009, 10:02 PM
I respect people until they do something that makes me lose that respect.

If I am blunt with my dislike for someone's writing, that has nothing to do with respect. If I am blunt about my opinion on someone's writing ability, as long I back that up with sound reasons, that has nothing to do with respect.

If someone does something to make me lose my respect for them, I will not feel bad about expressing that if someone asks.

scarletpeaches
02-06-2009, 11:03 PM
I promised myself I wouldn't come back to this thread, but...well, I broke my own promise.

But it's for a good reason, I promise. I'm here to give an example.

I once gave this crit to thethinker42:

You can't have him just run into her like that, it's a fucking coincidence; now sort it, shithead!
Now. Guess what Lori did?

a) Whined and wailed and got precious about it, told me I was being rude, got butthurt and pouted a lot or:

b) Rewrote the beginning of her novel, subbed it and got offered a publishing deal?

:D

Brindle Chase
02-06-2009, 11:22 PM
It would be a pretty crappy world to live in if people only ever opened their mouths to sing praise. Why shouldn't you speak out if you think something is garbage?

Well I was speaking in jest, hence the smiley face after that sentence, but you omitted it. However, I also never said you shouldn't speak out. It is how you speak out that defines your professionalism, who you are and the value of your criticism. You can be critical, brutally so and still define yourself as a decent human being. Saying why you think something is junk, doesn't need to start off with "Your writing is junk." Tell them what makes it junk, so they can work on the problem(s), but they shouldn't have to endure someone's childish need to insult others.

examples;

"Your writing fucking sucks. Kill yourself now and spare the world of your crap."

versus

"Your writing in general is wordy. Try to cut back on the amount of adverbs you use in any given sentence. Here is a link that discusses punctuation, it might help as I noticed you seem to struggle with it. I also noticed the following plot holes...." etc...

Do you see the difference?


Like someone said in an earlier post, if you don't have a thick skin, then you should probably back away from the writing industry if you don't want people to tell you your writing is not good. You can't please everyone, and people will only become more critical of both you and your writing the more successful you become. If you can't deal with it now (unless you're already a famous somebody) then I would advise you to start re-thinking your prospects. That sounds a tad harsh, but its the truth.

I realize it's truth, but this is a forum designed to help writers, not tear them down. Attacking another author's weight, for example, is not going to help them, or those reading, become a better writer(s). Because you don't like another writer's writing, doesn't make it bad writing either. So to say "they suck" isn't helpful. If you want to help, offer constructive critique and be as harsh and brutal as you want, but keep it professional, keep it objective and keep it from becoming a personal attack.



There are different types of people in this world-- there are those who get bashed and drop to their knees defeated and upset, then there are those who get bashed, dust themselves off and continue to do their best. Only the latter will prevail in the writing industry.

True, but consider how your presentation of yourself reflects to others in the industry. How many highly successful authors do you know who go around attacking other author's weight problems? Or attacking them at all? Or agents, editors? Very very few. Keep in mind, authors, editors and agents do visit this board.

StevenJ
02-06-2009, 11:26 PM
I once gave this crit to thethinker42:


Gawd blimey, you mad bint! It's a bleedin' coincidence - SORT IT! NAOOOOOOOO!!!!

Good heavens...it's like being critiqued by Ronnie Kray...

I myself require molly-coddling critique, such as:


Your story about smiley pussycats is VERY GOOD, little Stevie!
I liek the way you left out paragraphs, sentences and all the punctuation stuffz! Hehe! xxx

:D

scarletpeaches
02-06-2009, 11:27 PM
I told you never to publicise my bad Eastenders audition you slag! Nah gerrarramoy bladdy fred; you're baaahed!

NeuroFizz
02-07-2009, 12:14 AM
If a volunteer here takes the time to crit something posted for evaluation, there is no obligation of the original author to accept the comments, but there is an obligation to thank the volunteer. I think that's been said, and it's part of respecting a fellow author. The exception is if the critter takes the crit from the posted work to the author (the comments leave the written work and address something about the author). Keep in mind, though that saying a passage is "lazy writing" is NOT even close to the same as saying the writer is lazy. The problem is some original posters are so enamored with their own writing they refuse to accept criticism, or they counter it with comments on the volunteer's ability to evaluate writing. This is reverse disrespect in this particular situation. Some posting authors choose to argue, even get nasty with volunteer critters.

Outside of the derail, blunt isn't equal to disrespect (as Scarlet has said). Harsh isn't either as long as the harsh crit is addressing the work and not the author. This goes for remarks about published works as well.

The comment that this is a learning site is accurate, but an essential part of that learning process is to learn how to take criticism of all sorts as long as it is focused on the work. Saying this is a learning site and we should be supportive in all of our crits is missing a couple of important points. First, offering a crit IS being supportive, even if that crit is harsh and blunt. Second, we are not here to make sure all of our AW colleagues have spiking self-esteem. We're here to help each other become better writers. If a poster submits crap for critique, the best thing we can do it tell that person it's crap in a constructive way. And that person will be better off if he/she doesn't receive a pat on the head and a "that's all right, little darlin', as shit goes, it was pretty wonderful." I lay some whoppers both in the smallest room in the house and on the word processor, but I don't expect any more congratulations for the latter than I do for the former.

The best crits, whether they be in SYW or of published material, are those that are harsh, blunt, but also give some indication as to why they are viewed as they are. Those crits do not disrespect the author.

And it doesn't bother me that people make fun of my fro. I keep pencils in there. Right now, I have two or three in there. Maybe four.

thethinker42
02-07-2009, 12:17 AM
I lay some whoppers both in the smallest room in the house and on the word processor, but I don't expect any more congratulations for the latter than I do for the former.

You certainly do have a way with words, Fizz...

scarletpeaches
02-07-2009, 12:18 AM
If there's a NeuroFizz fanclub, sign me up!

Ambrosia
02-07-2009, 06:39 AM
I once gave this crit to thethinker42:

Now. Guess what Lori did?

a) Whined and wailed and got precious about it, told me I was being rude, got butthurt and pouted a lot or:

b) Rewrote the beginning of her novel, subbed it and got offered a publishing deal?

:D
I take it she knew you were using 'shithead' as a term of endearment? Or did she need to be called shithead to get really motivated? Somehow, I doubt that.

Everyone...

I am new here. (Obviously. Ha!) I am aware that people who have been here interacting for ages know each other's little quirks and have developed relationships that allow for quite a bit more leeway in how they are addressed in posts. But when a new person comes in and reads biting comments and nasty retorts it gives that person pause. Is it worth it to hang around? Is it safe to share my work here? Is it ok to bring up this idea? Or will I walk into a tirade of negativity? Will I be put down? Is it really worth it to chance it? I have a question for those of you who think brutal honesty is the way to get your point across. Is being 'blunt' worth giving new people pause? I decided to stay and take the chance that this site is worth it. I am wondering how many hit the door and keep on going.

I am shocked at the amount of nastiness I have seen directed at established authors in these forums in the couple of days I have been here. That is just a couple days and a couple of threads... I admit to being hesitant to look too deeply. Also, what some would call 'blunt' in their responses to posts I would likely label 'rude'. This whole 'tough skin' argument strikes me as a way to be nasty to people and get by with it. If a person feels disrespected by a comment about their idea or their writing then it is just because that person is thin skinned and has no business being a writer in the first place. Please. Constructive criticism is one thing, but brutal honesty is called brutal for a reason. Please don't flay the skin from my bones. I will not handle that well at all. I believe that respect is important in all relationships. I was glad to see it as a foundation rule in these forums. I intend to apply it vigorously in my interactions here and hope to receive like in kind.

I am stepping out in this thread with some trepidation. It is difficult as a new person to put my opinion out here in such a bold manner. But, I wanted you all to hear a newbies perspective to this debate. Not that my perspective will match anyone else's, but that it is with fresh eyes that I present it, as opposed to someone who has been immersed in this atmosphere for a long time. Perhaps there will be benefit for the long time members here. That is my hope.

Thanks for listening.

(Stepping down from my soap box now.):Soapbox:

firedrake
02-07-2009, 06:44 AM
If you have a look in the Share your work section, you will find more constructive criticism than you could have ever hoped for.
There are quite a few members who put a lot of time into critiquing peoples' work. I've certainly benefited from posting in there, more than I could have possibly imagined.

NeuroFizz
02-07-2009, 07:38 AM
Ambrosia, blunt criticism and rude comments are very different things. So are caustic comments and joking between friends. Jumping into a new situation where there are established friendships can be tough, but it's all part of life (this is much easier than doing this same thing in person for some people).

Regarding blunt--if you just stay long enough to read some of the wonderful crits in the Share Your work forum, you'll see that most comments are appropriate and to-the-point. No sugar-coating, but directed at the specific passages posted for criticism. This is what we mean by blunt. If you find you are turned off by the kind of crits offered in this forum (and think they are unhelpful), you may want to move on somewhere else. I'm sure there's a website out there where a bunch of writers sit around the tell each other how wonderful they are.

Posts outside of SYW include lots of banter, some of it joking between people who do have long-run relationships here. There are some places where political arguments get incindiary, even nasty. Posts in the writing-specific parts of AW, like this one, will see a variety of types of comments, some pointed, some joking, some rude. But they all have one thing in common. People are expressing their opinions. If anyone wants to see limits on the kinds of opinions people can express on a site like this (other than those listed by Mac in the posts related to AW's rules), they might as well move on. But if anyone takes the time to read the flow of comments through these threads without a chip on the shoulder or without their feelings on their sleeve, they'll find a community of people who really are interested in raising the collective writing quality for everyone who posts or reads here. There is also quite a bit of foolishness that is posted here, but that is part of the community (really, any community) as well. Jump in. You may be shocked at times, you'll have ample opportunity to roll your eyes, but I guarantee with time, you'll learn something about writing and probably make some wonderful friends as well. And I'll bet you have something to teach all of us as well. We count on it because that's why we are all here.

C.bronco
02-07-2009, 07:44 AM
I lay some whoppers both in the smallest room in the house and on the word processor, but I don't expect any more congratulations for the latter than I do for the former.

In my household, we give praise for both! :D

(If the pup has an accident on the floor in the shape of a punctuation mark, letter or number -which has occurred on all three counts- my son yells "Bonus Poop!" He even wrote about it for his first grade teacher. It's good to take joy in the little things.)

NeuroFizz
02-07-2009, 07:54 AM
Note to self: The five-second rule for dropped food is waived at bronc's house.

Silver King
02-07-2009, 08:00 AM
Everyone...

I am new here. (Obviously. Ha!) I am aware that people who have been here interacting for ages know each other's little quirks and have developed relationships that allow for quite a bit more leeway in how they are addressed in posts. But when a new person comes in and reads biting comments and nasty retorts it gives that person pause. Is it worth it to hang around? Is it safe to share my work here? Is it ok to bring up this idea? Or will I walk into a tirade of negativity? Will I be put down? Is it really worth it to chance it? I have a question for those of you who think brutal honesty is the way to get your point across. Is being 'blunt' worth giving new people pause? I decided to stay and take the chance that this site is worth it. I am wondering how many hit the door and keep on going.

I am shocked at the amount of nastiness I have seen directed at established authors in these forums in the couple of days I have been here. That is just a couple days and a couple of threads... I admit to being hesitant to look too deeply. Also, what some would call 'blunt' in their responses to posts I would likely label 'rude'. This whole 'tough skin' argument strikes me as a way to be nasty to people and get by with it. If a person feels disrespected by a comment about their idea or their writing then it is just because that person is thin skinned and has no business being a writer in the first place. Please. Constructive criticism is one thing, but brutal honesty is called brutal for a reason. Please don't flay the skin from my bones. I will not handle that well at all. I believe that respect is important in all relationships. I was glad to see it as a foundation rule in these forums. I intend to apply it vigorously in my interactions here and hope to receive like in kind.

I am stepping out in this thread with some trepidation. It is difficult as a new person to put my opinion out here in such a bold manner. But, I wanted you all to hear a newbies perspective to this debate. Not that my perspective will match anyone else's, but that it is with fresh eyes that I present it, as opposed to someone who has been immersed in this atmosphere for a long time. Perhaps there will be benefit for the long time members here. That is my hope.

Thanks for listening.
I copied this most excellent post for posterity, and also to remind us that not everyone here understands where we're coming from when we interact in discussions. It's a good and well deserved gut-check, one that helps us understand how we're perceived at times, not just from an arm's length away, but even closer, "with fresh eyes."

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Ambrosia. I hope you decide, and realize you are welcome, to join in discussions with us at any time.

DonnaDuck
02-07-2009, 08:04 AM
I find it funny that people keep bringing up, or alluding to, the Meyer photo that I posted in the Twilight thread (although I doubt anyone actually remembered who posted it). The main point of that post was to show that she was named author of the year. It was not a photo sought out to show "omg look how fat she is!!!" but one she actively chose to represent her as author of the year for, what was is, USAToday or something like that? I stand by my opinion that no one over 80 pounds should be photographed from the ground up like that. No one and I so hope to god that should I get an opportunity like that that someone would have the sack to tell me "sweetheart, I love you but you look like a whale" before such a horrid picture went to print for the world to see. I'm still pissed that my friends and family humored me when I was 15 and had yellow-blonde hair (on some people it looks good, on me it looks like an elephant peed on Casper). That was ten years ago and to this day I want to smack them. Those pictures need to be burned. But does a horrible picture of her have anything to do with her writing? No. It's a shit picture. She may like it. I have no idea but I think it looks like crap. The fact that I think that picture is crap and her writing is crap are not interrelated. They're not even on the same boat deck however, when you put yourself out there, in any form, criticism is expected. The point of that post was to show Stephenie Meyer was named author of the year over much more worthy opponents than it was about a bad photo or how big her arms look. It was just adding insult to injury at the end of the day, with that.

I can not judge someone like Stephenie Meyer by anything other than what she puts out of herself. I think her writing is pretty high up there on the crap meter and considering the way she handles herself in public, especially the way she handles adverse criticism of her work, I can't say I like that either. It's bad decorum, as a writer, to wear the fact that you're a lazy writer on your sleeve and actually follow through with it while boasting of how you never had any real training yet got your very first book published and it was huge. It's bad decorum to refuse to answer legitimate questions pertaining to the fallacies and plotholes in your books because the questions are gross or give vague answers that don't really answer anything, which only shows that you don't really know what you're writing about, and then get worked up over the criticism resulting from the answer. It's bad decorum to pitch a raging hissy fit when the first draft manuscript to your work is leaked over the internet and then flat out refuse to write it when you were the very person that initiated the leak (perhaps handing out copies to people on the set of the movie wasn't the best of ideas? it's not like this was done at the beginning of her career, it was a year ago).

So perhaps taking a look at the actions of the author in question would be a better place to start than instantly jumping on the "attacker" for being mean or rude or whatever other adjective you want to use. Anne Rice is another one. Act like a douche in public and people are going to treat you like one. There's a very big difference between not liking the person for the way the present themselves than not liking them simply because you're a shit with nothing better to do.

To the harsh criticism = jealous bit, yeah ok. I'd rather not have books people thought were so bad they had to read them for themselves but it made me popular anyway and made me millions of dollars. No thanks.

I'm on the harsh bandwagon. I like it rough, give and take. When you're 8 and you have a psychotic gymnastic coach telling you to get the fuck up, you're not broken, you learn from an early age to take it and learn from it. Granted I'm sure this is a pretty unique experience but it's toughened me up to be able to handle the harsher stuff. And I really don't believe in sugar-coating critiques either. I think it's just detrimental to the author to do that. I try to cater my critique to the individual author. If they can handle the harsh stuff, then I give it to them. If they need some sweetener, they'll get a few grains but I'm still going to tell them what works and what doesn't. I don't take it to SP's level but I'm definitely not holding hands to the bus stop either.

Jerry B. Flory
02-07-2009, 08:06 AM
http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/1700000/Borders-Twilight-Calendar-twilight-series-1701491-559-558.jpg

Well, nobody told me it was about the lovechild of Eddie Munster and Quentin Tarantino. It's important to mention these things.

C.bronco
02-07-2009, 08:09 AM
Nice post, Silver King, and Ambrosia as well.

A lot of us have thick skins by necessity of the lives we've chosen. I always understand that a criticism is one person's opinion, but I am always grateful for it. When we write, we always know what we wanted to get across, but don't really know how much of what we wrote does, and that differs depending on who reads our work.

Ambrosia, I suggest that you d not worry about posting in SYW, but keep in mind that a variety of people will have a variety of opinions. On the other hand, if a lot of people agree, you might have a little editing to do!

We are all just regular people here, regardless of success or lack thereof, age or income. We all love writing, and you are in the company of a lot of people who have experience and goodwill towards other writers.

I hope you will not hesitate to jump in. This is a fantastic place.

DonnaDuck
02-07-2009, 08:11 AM
I think he's closer to Derek Zoolander's long lost brother . . .

http://i398.photobucket.com/albums/pp66/donnaduck/ridiculously.jpg

C.bronco
02-07-2009, 08:18 AM
Zoolander is a cinematic classic. Without it, we would not have Blue Steel!!!!!

mario_c
02-07-2009, 08:50 AM
Good thread, you nasty nasty brutes. :D

"Criticism is always constructive, because it makes you feel superior when you give it." - Dogbert

Some people don't like the Marine Corps approach to getting criticism, believe it or not. But the important thing to consider isn't what you're saying, but how you're saying it, that differentiates cruel and considerate.

My approach when giving criticism is to make the point, but consider how I'm wording it carefully. Am I talking to the author as if they are mentally deficient? Am I being a smartass? Am I micromanaging them, or belaboring the obvious?
Because I've received crits like this. Usually a warning sign is when they really pat themselves on the back how they're helping you, but when you review their points, they talk down to you. They make fun of you. They act like you couldn't possibly understand their point if they just made it straight up.
These people piss me off a lot, they will make me go postal one day. And the worst part is, some points are valid. But I'm missing out on an opportunity to get to work because I have to get my hands around some barbells before I kill someone.

So my point, and I'm glad you asked, is that I've been taught by example what not to do. I say my peace about an arc that doesn't make sense, or a pattern of redundant descriptions, or a character that is unlikeable. I give the author everything, and I mean everything I have. But I would never disrespect them. That doesn't help anyone. It never helped me.

NeuroFizz
02-07-2009, 08:56 AM
Some people don't like the Marine Corps approach to getting criticism, believe it or not. But the important thing to consider isn't what you're saying, but how you're saying it, that differentiates cruel and considerate.

My approach when giving criticism is to make the point, but consider how I'm wording it carefully. Am I talking to the author as if they are mentally deficient? Am I being a smartass? Am I micromanaging them, or belaboring the obvious?
Because I've received crits like this. Usually a warning sign is when they really pat themselves on the back how they're helping you, but when you review their points, they talk down to you. They make fun of you. They act like you couldn't possibly understand their point if they just made it straight up.
These people piss me off a lot, they will make me go postal one day. And the worst part is, some points are valid. But I'm missing out on an opportunity to get to work because I have to get my hands around some barbells before I kill someone.

So my point, and I'm glad you asked, is that I've been taught by example what not to do. I say my peace about an arc that doesn't make sense, or a pattern of redundant descriptions, or a character that is unlikeable. I give the author everything, and I mean everything I have. But I would never disrespect them. That doesn't help anyone. It never helped me.
Can you give examples since this has happened to you here? Because I've read lots of crits, and I haven't seen any self-back-patting. You don't have to show the name of the critters, just a few examples of the kinds of comments you've received that are so disrespectful. This could serve as a good example of how not to crit. Also, how representative is this kind of behavior here? I ask because I've seen blunt crits, but not many that would be considered as nasty as you've indicated here.

mario_c
02-07-2009, 09:12 AM
Can you give examples since this has happened to you here? Because I've read lots of crits, and I haven't seen any self-back-patting. You don't have to show the name of the critters, just a few examples of the kinds of comments you've received that are so disrespectful. This could serve as a good example of how not to crit. Also, how representative is this kind of behavior here? I ask because I've seen blunt crits, but not many that would be considered as nasty as you've indicated here.I've only got a couple crits on this site and so far nobody has been vicious at all. I submit scripts to other sites and a writer's group in my area, and it's a different story.

NeuroFizz
02-07-2009, 09:27 AM
Thanks. I don't hang out at screenwriters forums. Are they more nasty than novel critters, in a general way, of course?

Jerry B. Flory
02-07-2009, 09:35 AM
I crit by a pattern.
If there's other crits I read them, no point making the same points.
Check sentence beginnings. Are they using I, he, she, my, his, her to begin every sentence. This is first because it is the most common error that I find.
Check adverb usage. There is a proper usage for adverbs or they just wouldn't exist, right?
If they're using them wrong as extended dialogue tags that don't actually describe the dialogue or they're missing greater description, mention them. If they're using them RIGHT that's even more important to mention because it doesn't happen a lot.
Then I go after the story itself, is it boring, dragging, is the MC a self-absorbed automaton that reacts oddly with environments or other characters? If every sentence is beginning with I or my, probably. Even if they're not, they're still going to come off that way. What is the environment? Am I in it or just reading it?
Is there a conflict or is the plot setting up well? Do I hear, smell, taste and see things?
Always say "Keep writing."
Offer suggestions, exercises.
I will never tear out someone's sentences and add my own. I think that breeches the line of critiquing/rewriting. No fair interjecting my voice into someone else's work.
I will not do your homework.
All I really expect is a rep point. Disagree with my crit all you want, it's all opinion anyway.
Argue about it, get nasty about it, I'll skip the polite tone and constructive criticism and drag your mother into it for wasting my time.
I crit for my own benefit as well as those who post. It's good practice. You learn a lot from critting.
Not much to learn from back and forth bickering though it can be entertaining.

PS I really don't like not getting a rep point from a crit. It's insulting. But I realize some people don't even know about them.

thethinker42
02-07-2009, 11:46 AM
I take it she knew you were using 'shithead' as a term of endearment? Or did she need to be called shithead to get really motivated? Somehow, I doubt that.

Uh...well...actually...it did kind of get the point across. And it wasn't just "Sort it, shithead"...there were angry smilies and exclamation points involved too. It was pretty brutal. Of course it was partially in jest, but in all seriousness, while neither of us ever pulls punches about critiquing each other's writing, when that particular aspect of the story pissed her off THAT MUCH, I knew I'd screwed something up. Royally. So, I stepped back and took a good, long look at my story.

It resulted in Playing With Fire...so my cyber-beating by scarletpeaches was certainly a good thing. :D

Not that I advocate being nasty when critiquing...but sometimes the non-sugarcoated comments are the ones that make me sit up and say "oh crap, did I screw it up THAT badly?"

Virector
02-07-2009, 01:20 PM
Well I was speaking in jest, hence the smiley face after that sentence, but you omitted it. However, I also never said you shouldn't speak out. It is how you speak out that defines your professionalism, who you are and the value of your criticism. You can be critical, brutally so and still define yourself as a decent human being. Saying why you think something is junk, doesn't need to start off with "Your writing is junk." Tell them what makes it junk, so they can work on the problem(s), but they shouldn't have to endure someone's childish need to insult others.

examples;

"Your writing fucking sucks. Kill yourself now and spare the world of your crap."

versus

"Your writing in general is wordy. Try to cut back on the amount of adverbs you use in any given sentence. Here is a link that discusses punctuation, it might help as I noticed you seem to struggle with it. I also noticed the following plot holes...." etc...

Do you see the difference?



I realize it's truth, but this is a forum designed to help writers, not tear them down. Attacking another author's weight, for example, is not going to help them, or those reading, become a better writer(s). Because you don't like another writer's writing, doesn't make it bad writing either. So to say "they suck" isn't helpful. If you want to help, offer constructive critique and be as harsh and brutal as you want, but keep it professional, keep it objective and keep it from becoming a personal attack.



True, but consider how your presentation of yourself reflects to others in the industry. How many highly successful authors do you know who go around attacking other author's weight problems? Or attacking them at all? Or agents, editors? Very very few. Keep in mind, authors, editors and agents do visit this board.

Oh, sorry! I understand, and agree with what you are saying, Brindle Chase. The way I put it made it seem like I was coming at you. The rest of my post was not actually directed at you specifically, but it was just my general take on the subject.:tongue Thanks for further clarifying your post, though. :)

scarletpeaches
02-07-2009, 04:35 PM
Regarding the 'shithead' comment, I can't believe anyone would think that:

I would approach a complete stranger and randomly call them a shithead - I'm blunt, not a Tourette's case, or that:
Lori wouldn't call me a lot worse in return if I did insult her out of the blue.Some people are too sensitive and, dare I say it, gullible when it comes to believing everything I post is literal. Well, yeah, I do call Lori a lot worse than 'shithead' but that's because we've known each other for years and have earned the right to insult in place of sugar-coating. (Which we both prefer anyway; it gets to the point quicker. Proof? She was offered a publishing contract for PWF within two months of writing the first word).

How does it affect newbies on the site? Well as we're all writers and most of us are grown-ups I like to think we have the sense to recognise that different friendships will form here and there, and that we take liberties with people we know best.

Yes, FYI I am as nice as pie when the occasion calls for it - but this is not a job interview, a presentation at work or a public speech given from a platform in front of 200 people. It's a writers' website.

Yes, I have to be aware of how my words affect others. That's why I tailor my words to the individual.

Other readers of the thread need to have the sense to recognise where the writer is coming from. What's the alternative? Being spoonfed my intentions when my hours could be better spent writing or reading? Nah. Don't have time for that. There are only twenty-four hours in the day.


Uh...well...actually...it did kind of get the point across. And it wasn't just "Sort it, shithead"...there were angry smilies and exclamation points involved too. It was pretty brutal. Of course it was partially in jest, but in all seriousness, while neither of us ever pulls punches about critiquing each other's writing, when that particular aspect of the story pissed her off THAT MUCH, I knew I'd screwed something up. Royally. So, I stepped back and took a good, long look at my story.

Indeed. Coincidences are bad.

I believe I also threatened to beat her with a big stick if she had the two characters meet that way.

And I may also have briefly synopsised (is that even a word?) a novel I'd recently read to show how utterly crapitudinous such an idea was.

Accusations of deus ex machina were made, outlines were adjusted, manuscripts were re-written.

Oh, and publishing deals were offered!


It resulted in Playing With Fire...so my cyber-beating by scarletpeaches was certainly a good thing. :D

And I expect a free copy.


Not that I advocate being nasty when critiquing...but sometimes the non-sugarcoated comments are the ones that make me sit up and say "oh crap, did I screw it up THAT badly?"

Exactly. I wish people would get it into their heads that blunt does not necessarily equal rude.

Yours was a special case 'cause I knew I'd get away with it. Jesus. Do people think I have only one setting? Well maybe they do, but that's their lookout. Plenty of people who've spoken to me offsite would say different. But that's because they have the brains to recognise the SP who gives crits is different from the one who writes poetry...or who writes prose...or who does a million and one other things off site.

Even then, there are different levels of crits. As a (probably bad) example my dad sometimes gets me to look over the brochures he makes up for his workplace, advertising their wares. He'll say, "Check that for spelling, would you?" So I go over it and say, "You've missed the apostrophe," or, "There's an S there, not a Z." And that's all he gets, because that's what he's asked for, not an opinion on the photos he's used or the layout.

You ask for a crit, you get a crit. But for God's sake be specific in what you ask for. Spelling? Grammar? Layout? Storyline? Characterisation? Level of brutality/layers of sugar-coating? You get what you ask for. Don't blame me if you don't like what you hear.

Mr Flibble
02-07-2009, 04:51 PM
I am new here. Hiya!


Is it worth it to hang around? Is it safe to share my work here? Is it ok to bring up this idea? Or will I walk into a tirade of negativity? Will I be put down? Is it really worth it to chance it? Yes. Yes. Yes, ideas are always good, of course it's the execution that is the thing. No, though you might get a 'well, hasn't so and so done exactly that' or 'you might want to think about X consequence' which is good. No, or course not, though people might point out where you can improve that is not teh same as negativity. People here are very supportive. Yes, absolutely - this place is the one biggest thing that helped my writing.





I am shocked at the amount of nastiness I have seen directed at established authors in these forums in the couple of days I have been here. That is just a couple days and a couple of threads... I admit to being hesitant to look too deeply.

Um, I still haven't seen any nastiness towards authors. To their work, yes. You were in the Paolini thread I think? So you know I think his writing is second rate, at best. But I have no opinion on the guy. Not liking someone's work is not the same as ripping their guts out or something. There is a difference betweeen critique ( honesty about points that could be improved, encouragement on what you are getting right) on a work in proigress. But a review of something that is finished and published is different - and is STILL not an attack on the author. It is an opinion on their work, not their worth as a human being.


Also, what some would call 'blunt' in their responses to posts I would likely label 'rude'. If you see someone being out and out rude, report it. Though I can't say I've seen anyone be really rude in the SYW. Saying 'this needs a lot more work, oh and watch those adverbs they make my eyes water' is not rude. It's a pointer that you are doing something off in the opinion of the critter. You can chose to work on it, or not. But it's not rude. If they said 'you're bloody hopeless because of all those adverbs' that would be a personal attack, and also rude and would get reported I don't doubt. We crit the work, not the writer.


Get stuck in on SYW, crit a few things yourself before you put yourself out there - it helps give a feel of how it all works - and also, you're more likely to get crits back if you crit. Because that's polite too. ;)

Stick around. You'll find tehre are some people you love to read their posts, and maybe others that make you want to rip your eyeballs out - that doens'y mean their review of your work is any less valid. Just differently phrased. All is valuable.

Ambrosia
02-07-2009, 05:25 PM
Regarding the 'shithead' comment, I can't believe anyone would think that:
I would approach a complete stranger and randomly call them a shithead - I'm blunt, not a Tourette's case, or that:
Lori wouldn't call me a lot worse in return if I did insult her out of the blue.First, let me apologize for using your interaction as the only example in my post. I realize now how that might make you feel singled out. That was not my intention. The whole 'shithead' thing was just an easy example at hand and not intended as anything personal against you. It was easy for me to see your use of 'shithead' as a lighthearted exchange, a term of endearment for a friend you know. I am pretty good at reading 'between the lines'. Not everyone is good at it, though.

How does it affect newbies on the site? Well as we're all writers and most of us are grown-ups I like to think we have the sense to recognize that different friendships will form here and there, and that we take liberties with people we know best.
It takes time to figure out the interactions between different members and what is teasing and what is true hostility. I recognize friendships form and dictate the type of interactions people have here. However, you and I are still working on our communication together. All I am saying is a new person might not have the patience and forbearance I have developed over my life. And if many people in a thread are being snarky, even adults can find that personally insulting.


Yes, FYI I am as nice as pie when the occasion calls for it -
I actually believe that. :)


but this is not a job interview, a presentation at work or a public speech given from a platform in front of 200 people. It's a writers' website.
So you don't have to be nice? I will settle for respectful.

FWIW, I have enjoyed our exchanges, SP. I am looking forward to many more in the future. :D

firedrake
02-07-2009, 05:26 PM
Hiya!

Yes. Yes. Yes, ideas are always good, of course it's the execution that is the thing. No, though you might get a 'well, hasn't so and so done exactly that' or 'you might want to think about X consequence' which is good. No, or course not, though people might point out where you can improve that is not teh same as negativity. People here are very supportive. Yes, absolutely - this place is the one biggest thing that helped my writing.






I would second this.
It's been years since I did writing courses at University.
I have learned more in the few, short weeks that I have been here than I have in the last 20 or so years. The critters here are very good at what they do, it takes time, patience and an eye for detail that I would never have, to do the crits that they do. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, I would rather have honest, to-the-point criticism because:

a) Bullshit baffles my brain;
b) I am never too old to stop learning;
c) In order to have a chance of getting published, my work needs to be be the best that it can be, as the person who created it, I'm too close to it and I need a sharp, objective eye.
d) If I want praise for my writing, my friends and family give me that.

scarletpeaches
02-07-2009, 05:43 PM
First, let me apologize for using your interaction as the only example in my post. I realize now how that might make you feel singled out. That was not my intention.

Not at all. It didn't bother me in the slightest; no need to apologise. :)


So you don't have to be nice? I will settle for respectful.

Didn't say that at all. As I've said time and time again - brutally honest does not necessarily equal rude and insulting.


FWIW, I have enjoyed our exchanges, SP. I am looking forward to many more in the future. :D

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *cackles* :e2teeth:

swvaughn
02-07-2009, 06:28 PM
Here's the text of the Anne Rice rant, originally posted on Amazon under the reviews for Blood Canticle, the final installment of the Vampire Chronicles - as a huge blob of text that was difficult to read. I've inserted a few line breaks so your eyes don't fall out of your head, but they probably will anyway.

I was a fan until this.

------------

From the Author to the Some of the Negative Voices Here, September 6, 2004

Seldom do I really answer those who criticize my work. In fact, the entire development of my career has been fueled by my ability to ignore denigrating and trivializing criticism as I realize my dreams and my goals. However there is something compelling about Amazon's willingness to publish just about anything, and the sheer outrageous stupidity of many things you've said here that actually touches my proletarian and Democratic soul. Also I use and enjoy Amazon and I do read the reviews of other people's books in many fields. In sum, I believe in what happens here. And so, I speak.

First off, let me say that this is addressed only to some of you, who have posted outrageously negative comments here, and not to all. You are interrogating this text from the wrong perspective. Indeed, you aren't even reading it. You are projecting your own limitations on it. And you are giving a whole new meaning to the words "wide readership." And you have strained my Dickensean principles to the max. I'm justifiably proud of being read by intellectual giants and waitresses in trailer parks,in fact, I love it, but who in the world are you?

Now to the book. Allow me to point out: nowhere in this text are you told that this is the last of the chronicles, nowhere are you promised curtain calls or a finale, nowhere are you told there will be a wrap-up of all the earlier material. The text tells you exactly what to expect. And it warns you specifically that if you did not enjoy Memnoch the Devil, you may not enjoy this book. This book is by and about a hero whom many of you have already rejected. And he tells you that you are likely to reject him again.

And this book is most certainly written -- every word of it -- by me. If and when I can't write a book on my own, you'll know about it. And no, I have no intention of allowing any editor ever to distort, cut, or otherwise mutilate sentences that I have edited and re-edited, and organized and polished myself. I fought a great battle to achieve a status where I did not have to put up with editors making demands on me, and I will never relinquish that status. For me, novel writing is a virtuoso performance. It is not a collaborative art.

Back to the novel itself: the character who tells the tale is my Lestat. I was with him more closely than I have ever been in this novel; his voice was as powerful for me as I've ever heard it. I experienced break through after break through as I walked with him, moved with him, saw through his eyes. What I ask of Lestat, Lestat unfailingly gives. For me, three hunting scenes, two which take place in hotels -- the lone woman waiting for the hit man, the slaughter at the pimp's party -- and the late night foray into the slums --stand with any similar scenes in all of the chronicles. They can be read aloud without a single hitch. Every word is in perfect place. The short chapter in which Lestat describes his love for Rowan Mayfair was for me a totally realized poem. There are other such scenes in this book.

You don't get all this? Fine. But I experienced an intimacy with the character in those scenes that shattered all prior restraints, and when one is writing one does have to continuously and courageously fight a destructive tendency to inhibition and restraint. Getting really close to the subject matter is the achievement of only great art. Now, if it doesn't appeal to you, fine. You don't enjoy it? Read somebody else. But your stupid arrogant assumptions about me and what I am doing are slander. And you have used this site as if it were a public urinal to publish falsehood and lies. I'll never challenge your democratic freedom to do so, and yes, I'm answering you, but for what it's worth, be assured of the utter contempt I feel for you, especially those of you who post anonymously (and perhaps repeatedly?) and how glad I am that this book is the last one in a series that has invited your hateful and ugly responses.

Now, to return to the narrative in question: Lestat's wanting to be a saint is a vision larded through and through with his characteristic vanity. It connects perfectly with his earlier ambitions to be an actor in Paris, a rock star in the modern age. If you can't see that, you aren't reading my work. In his conversation with the Pope he makes observations on the times which are in continuity with his observations on the late twentieth century in The Vampire Lestat, and in continuity with Marius' observations in that book and later in Queen of the Damned. The state of the world has always been an important theme in the chronicles. Lestat's comments matter. Every word he speaks is part of the achievement of this book. That Lestat renounced this saintly ambition within a matter of pages is plain enough for you to see. That he reverts to his old self is obvious, and that he intends to complete the tale of Blackwood Farm is also quite clear.

There are many other themes and patterns in this work that I might mention -- the interplay between St.Juan Diago and Lestat, the invisible creature who doesn't "exist" in the eyes of the world is a case in point. There is also the theme of the snare of Blackwood Farm, the place where a human existence becomes so beguiling that Lestat relinquishes his power as if to a spell. The entire relationship between Lestat and Uncle Julien is carefully worked out.

But I leave it to readers to discover how this complex and intricate novel establishes itself within a unique, if not unrivalled series of book. There are things to be said. And there is pleasure to be had. And readers will say wonderful things about Blood Canticle and they already are. There are readers out there and plenty of them who cherish the individuality of each of the chronicles which you so flippantly condemn. They can and do talk circles around you. And I am warmed by their response. Their letters, the papers they write in school, our face to face exchanges on the road -- these things sustain me when I read the utter trash that you post.

But I feel I have said enough. If this reaches one reader who is curious about my work and shocked by the ugly reviews here, I've served my goals. And Yo, you dude, the slang police! Lestat talks like I do. He always has and he always will. You really wouldn't much like being around either one of us. And you don't have to be.

If any of you want to say anything about all this by all means Email me at Anneobrienrice@mac.com. And if you want your money back for the book, send it to 1239 First Street, New Orleans, La, 70130. I'm not a coward about my real name or where I live. And yes, the Chronicles are no more! Thank God!

----------------

By the way - the e-mail address she listed does not work, and any books sent to the address for a refund are returned unopened.

DonnaDuck
02-07-2009, 06:42 PM
She certainly does think highly of herself. One of the many reasons I'm no longer an Anne Rice fan. God forbid not everyone gets it or doesn't like it and posts criticism about her work. They're just not reading it. *enter eye roll*

mario_c
02-07-2009, 06:46 PM
OK Neuro, I must have collapsed after your reply - early morning job and all. So I'm using some down time to give you two examples to your question:

One crit I had to reply to was where the author was basically like - no correction he actually said, "You uploaded an unproofed first draft by mistake, right? Tell me that's what you did." Actually, it was a draft 2.1 and I let him know that.

Readers that make fun of your writing: There's a line in a draft that goes:


Nicole is calling David.

Implies a telephone, right? This guy writes back implying the character is demented, wandering the house calling her ex-husband's name. A whole page of these comments.
I mean, is it too much to ask you spend a little time reading the script before you blast it? OK that was more idiotic than mean spirited. (And yes, I changed the word to "phoning".)

What do I know? I guess I'm a fraud. Enjoy.
(I'd better get back to work...)

scarletpeaches
02-07-2009, 07:10 PM
That Anne Rice rant is a thing of beauty.

*wipes away tears of laughter*

Devil Ledbetter
02-07-2009, 07:35 PM
That Anne Rice rant is a thing of beauty.

*wipes away tears of laughter*It's a bit wordy though. She could have just said, "If you don't worship my ingenious writing, you're an idiot."

tehuti88
02-07-2009, 07:40 PM
I made a mistake in my earlier post in equating bluntness with rudeness, but this just illustrates the mistake that many on the opposite side make, in equating tact with false praise and pussyfooting. If one is going to insist that "Blunt does NOT necessarily mean rude!" they should also accept the fact that "Tactful does NOT necessarily mean sugar sweet!" (And based on what I've seen around here, some people's idea of "blunt" fits my personal idea of "rude." Doesn't make either of us wrong, just shows how different we all are in our perceptions.)

And the point still remains that everyone responds differently to different types of criticism. I won't tell those who thrive on bluntness how they should react. So when blunt people tell more tactful people to just "grow a thicker skin," it really rankles me. Why shouldn't they grow thinner skins?

When a writer seeks critique they open themselves up to being hurt, and they need to expect that, but that isn't a license to be as blunt as one wishes (and expect their advice to be heard). We all "hear" things differently, and bluntness, even if it's not quite rude, doesn't work for some. (The same as tact might be lost on some people who need to be hit over the head with what's wrong in their writing.) Those who have mentioned how they tailor their criticism style to suit the needs of the writer seeking advice are the ones who, IMO, have it right. Some people can handle utter bluntness but some people can't. Doesn't make us too thin skinned, just means we react to things differently. I wouldn't dare tell an albino to grow a thicker, darker skin if they don't want to get burned in the sunlight because that's just how they are, and it's not right or wrong, it just is. Same as I wouldn't dare step between two blunt writers here and yell at them to tone it down if it seems to be working for them.

I can be blunt if I want to be (obviously). But most of the time I choose to be polite. And I prefer people to be polite when commenting on my writing, because that's what helps me most as a writer. Doesn't mean I want them telling me it's all good and perfect, not by a long shot. And it doesn't mean I need a thicker skin. It's just how I am.

"Review unto others as THEY would have you review."

(Please note I'm talking about the critique process and not publication. For THAT, one definitely needs a thicker skin.)

scarletpeaches
02-07-2009, 07:57 PM
People can have as thin a skin as they like, but they're in for a shock when their writing appears in public.

Darzian
02-07-2009, 10:08 PM
Judging by some Amazon reviews I've seen, I would probably buy myself a military tank on the day that my work appears in public. ;)

thethinker42
02-07-2009, 10:29 PM
(Please note I'm talking about the critique process and not publication. For THAT, one definitely needs a thicker skin.)

This is absolutely true...BUT...if someone lacks a thick skin during the critique process, they're in for a rude awakening during the publication process. Quite honestly, some of the more brutal critiques I've gotten (*cough*scarletpeaches*cough*) have helped me develop the requisite thick skin for pursuing publication. I used to be very precious about my writing, but for the last several years, people haven't pulled punches. I learned to roll with it. The other day I had lunch with an editor who was criticizing my work to my face...there's no way I could have gone from gentle critiques to that without needing some serious medication afterward.

I don't think people should be mean-spirited in their criticism - and quite honestly, I've rarely seen such a thing, especially here - but I'd rather be bluntly told by a friend/fellow writer that something sucks than hear it from a publisher. I consider the critique process a chance to develop the writing and the writer. And part of that means developing the cojones to roll with the punches.

Cranky
02-07-2009, 10:33 PM
This is absolutely true...BUT...if someone lacks a thick skin during the critique process, they're in for a rude awakening during the publication process. Quite honestly, some of the more brutal critiques I've gotten (*cough*scarletpeaches*cough*) have helped me develop the requisite thick skin for pursuing publication. I used to be very precious about my writing, but for the last several years, people haven't pulled punches. I learned to roll with it. The other day I had lunch with an editor who was criticizing my work to my face...there's no way I could have gone from gentle critiques to that without needing some serious medication afterward.

I don't think people should be mean-spirited in their criticism - and quite honestly, I've rarely seen such a thing, especially here - but I'd rather be bluntly told by a friend/fellow writer that something sucks than hear it from a publisher. I consider the critique process a chance to develop the writing and the writer. And part of that means developing the cojones to roll with the punches.


QFT. I'd rather someone be blunt, but honest about my work. Sure, it does sting, it really does. But I can tell right away when they're right and when they are not, and I'd rather weather the slings and arrows in SYW or from betas than not.

Better that then send in something that isn't the best it can possibly be. Which would embarrass me even more than a harsh critique from a fellow writer.

Jerry B. Flory
02-07-2009, 10:47 PM
I'm sorry to say, unlike most of Anne's work, I didn't make it all the way through this self-congratulating rant.
I'm disillusioned.
I was always under the assumption she had some class.
She should just tell stories, not talk to people.

GirlWithPoisonPen
02-07-2009, 11:00 PM
The only way that we will get better as writers is for people to tell us when something doesn't work.

There is a big difference between saying "you use too many adverbs, your characters are flat, and I'm not interested in the story" and "oh my god, you look like a troll and must be horrible in bed." The first is an analysis of the writing, the second a personal attack. The two shouldn't be confused.

I do cringe in SYW when I see someone say "You're a horrible writer" or "you can't write." That kind of critique has no place on this board.

But if you want to be a writer and send your work out into the world, you need to put on your big boy or big girl pants and just deal with the fact not everyone will think your prose is golden. You can laugh them all the way to the New York Times best seller list and the bank.

scarletpeaches
02-07-2009, 11:02 PM
Yup.

If someone says, "This writing is horrible and here's how to fix it," all well and good. ;)

thethinker42
02-07-2009, 11:06 PM
I do cringe in SYW when I see someone say "You're a horrible writer" or "you can't write." That kind of critique has no place on this board.

Do people actually SAY that in SYW??? I don't spend a lot of time in that forum, so I can't say I've seen it.

Cranky
02-07-2009, 11:08 PM
Do people actually SAY that in SYW??? I don't spend a lot of time in that forum, so I can't say I've seen it.

I've only seen it once, and to be honest, I think it was a case of things getting way, way out of hand.

Other than that, I've never seen anyone say that to another writer on here, and I read in there a lot. Don't always comment, but I do read. :)

thethinker42
02-07-2009, 11:10 PM
I've only seen it once, and to be honest, I think it was a case of things getting way, way out of hand.

Other than that, I've never seen anyone say that to another writer on here, and I read in there a lot. Don't always comment, but I do read. :)

That's what I figured. Just judging by the tone of AW in general and the few times I have visited SYW, I can't imagine that being a trend...especially anything more than a very short-lived trend.

veinglory
02-08-2009, 12:35 AM
Occassionally thing in SYW get a little out of hand while a mod looks the other way. But that is also true of other subforums. WYFW applies there just as it does everywhere else but it may become more of a problem in SYW in cases where a new user starts in SYW posting their work rather than starting in introductions, looking around and critiquing a little in SYW before posting.

Medievalist
02-08-2009, 01:24 AM
I do cringe in SYW when I see someone say "You're a horrible writer" or "you can't write." That kind of critique has no place on this board.

If you see something like that, ever, please please please do one or more of the following:

1. Point out, politely, in the thread that that isn't helpful--model /demonstrate a helpful critique.

2. Report the post. It doesn't make you look bad. It makes you look responsible and caring.

3. Please let a mod or supermod know via a Rep or PM.

The board is too large for the mods to see/read everything. They need help.

Williebee
02-08-2009, 01:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarletpeaches View Post
Yes, FYI I am as nice as pie when the occasion calls for it -

I actually believe that.

O' Gods. She's suckered another one.

Tell me if you like it. Tell me if you don't. Tell me if I've used a word (like tell) too often.

As a writer, or any other craft/job/reason to go outside, you aren't going to please everyone. And, you are going to meet more rude people who think they have to tell you that you suck than you are people who feel that they must tell you they think you hung the moon.

One of the most valuable parts of this place, and crit groups, is growing within that process, learning to deal with it.

Education is the key. It says so right here on my little soapbox.

thethinker42
02-08-2009, 02:06 AM
O' Gods. She's suckered another one.

Break out the Kool Aid...


Tell me if you like it. Tell me if you don't. Tell me if I've used a word (like tell) too often.

As a writer, or any other craft/job/reason to go outside, you aren't going to please everyone. And, you are going to meet more rude people who think they have to tell you that you suck than you are people who feel that they must tell you they think you hung the moon.

One of the most valuable parts of this place, and crit groups, is growing within that process, learning to deal with it.

QFT. And it's not like you have to take EVERY comment as "you must change this"*. So if you disagree with a comment that one person makes...it might be okay to keep it. If FIVE people make the same comment? Take heed.




* Unless scarletpeaches is critiquing you...because heaven help you if you don't make the change in question...

StevenJ
02-08-2009, 02:22 AM
I'm the least observant person I know, a 'slow' thinker too* - quite often, I fail to notice faults in my writing which others easily point out...therefore, I appreciate 'negative' critique more than most.

*This is absolutely true - I have problems perceiving things, even basic shapes, for example.

thethinker42
02-08-2009, 03:33 AM
I'm the least observant person I know, a 'slow' thinker too* - quite often, I fail to notice faults in my writing which others easily point out...therefore, I appreciate 'negative' critique more than most.

And even then, it's difficult to see some faults in your own writing, particularly if it's a case of "wait, why did this character do X? I don't get it.". For example, it may be perfectly clear to *you* that the main character in "Shear Love" is afraid of the electric sheep shears because of a traumatic accident when he was 19, but *I* might perceive that the character is just stubbornly old school and prefers the non-electric variety in spite of their inefficiency (something completely out of character for this guy, which would have me scratching my head and going "WTF?"). You know it in your head, I need you to tell me in the story.

So even if you ARE an observant individual, you may not pick up the less obvious - but very problematic - flaws in your own writing. Thus...beta readers. Thus...negative - but helpful - critiques.

Jerry B. Flory
02-08-2009, 03:33 AM
^As is evident by the irregular coloring in your avatar.

thethinker42
02-08-2009, 03:35 AM
^As is evident by the irregular coloring in your avatar.

No, that's just because he's not a PhotoShop ninja like some of the rest of us...

StevenJ
02-08-2009, 03:38 AM
Hang on, folks, I'm still reading Page 8...Ha! I may be a moron with worldwide sales figures of...er...zero but, Ms Rice, at least I know how to spell 'Dickensian'.

DonnaDuck
02-08-2009, 04:35 AM
The thing is, though, a person needs to be able to recognize their own faults and be willing to see them first and foremost before getting any critique. If I tell someone who posts in SYW, "Your characters are flat. I'd suggest digging into their heads a little to flesh them out. Perhaps try a writing exercise with just your character to see how they react.", that could easily be twisted, in the head of the writer, to mean "OMG you SUCK! You fail as a writer and at life. Go jump off a CLIFF!" if they're not willing to separate themselves from their work, be willing to have their flaws pointed out to them, see those flaws and work to fix it. That's extreme, I know, and I've never seen it here but it does happen in other places. A lot.

Some people, you can give them the tiniest piece of constructive criticism (I see you use too many commas) and it's an insult not only to the writing but the person and perhaps even the person's mother.

I was critiquing someone's work on another site and I gave him a bunch of information that I thought was pretty constructive and he took it all in stride. Some of it was due to what I read being a chapter in the middle of the story so there was confusion, but one major flaw I saw was that his characters were really flat, stock, cardboard cutouts. He didn't get upset but he tried to explain that I needed to read the work from the beginning to see otherwise. I then tried to tell him that I shouldn't have to do that, I should see dynamic characters no matter where I turned in the story, but he wasn't seeing it. He felt very strongly they weren't flat. So I stopped trying. I did my best and walked away. He has my advice and can do what he will with it but I still think that work is dead in the water without better characters.

Eh, people cover the spectrum, I guess. All you can do is hope that when they say they're looking for a constructive criticism that they actually mean it.

Eldritch
02-08-2009, 05:06 AM
Well I look like a dog's bum with a hat on it...

Based on your avatar, I'd say you look more like a metrosexual terminator.

thethinker42
02-08-2009, 05:07 AM
Based on your avatar, I'd say you look more like a metrosexual terminator.

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Stevie, darling, you're never going to hear the end of this one. EVER.

mario_c
02-08-2009, 09:44 AM
Well, it could be worse. You could be face to face with link removed via request from other site's Webmaster.

StevenJ
02-08-2009, 03:47 PM
Based on your avatar, I'd say you look more like a metrosexual terminator.
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.



Stevie, darling, you're never going to hear the end of this one. EVER.

Awww crap, I'm a living joke...

:D

tehuti88
02-08-2009, 07:07 PM
The only way that we will get better as writers is for people to tell us when something doesn't work.

There is a big difference between saying "you use too many adverbs, your characters are flat, and I'm not interested in the story" and "oh my god, you look like a troll and must be horrible in bed." The first is an analysis of the writing, the second a personal attack. The two shouldn't be confused.

I do cringe in SYW when I see someone say "You're a horrible writer" or "you can't write." That kind of critique has no place on this board.

But if you want to be a writer and send your work out into the world, you need to put on your big boy or big girl pants and just deal with the fact not everyone will think your prose is golden. You can laugh them all the way to the New York Times best seller list and the bank.


Yup.

If someone says, "This writing is horrible and here's how to fix it," all well and good. ;)


And this is exactly what I've been saying all along, so I'm not sure why anyone might be thinking I claimed differently. :Shrug:

USELESS: "This story is hideous! Where did you (not) learn to write? Are you just trying to exorcise some personal demons or something? I'm doing the literary world a favor discouraging you, you know!" (That was from the person I mentioned in my first post, whose helpful criticism was completely lost on me for years.)

USELESS: "OMG this is so perfect PLEASE WRITE MORE!!" (I get this often. Hate it.)

USEFUL TO SOME PEOPLE, BUT NOT USEFUL TO ME: "FIX THIS SENTENCE, YOU FRIGGING DUMBASS!!" (Haven't gotten this yet because I make a point not to ask for critique from people with this style.)

USEFUL TO ME: "I really don't get this part of the story. Why did the character do this? It doesn't make sense in this context. They seem kind of 'flat' to me, so maybe you should develop them more. Also, this sentence seems awkward..." (Have gotten plenty of this, and appreciated it, even if it stung for a while or I didn't agree.)

See? Tactful, and honest. Helpful. To me.

NeuroFizz
02-08-2009, 08:05 PM
And this is exactly what I've been saying all along, so I'm not sure why anyone might be thinking I claimed differently.

USELESS: "This story is hideous! Where did you (not) learn to write? Are you just trying to exorcise some personal demons or something? I'm doing the literary world a favor discouraging you, you know!" (That was from the person I mentioned in my first post, whose helpful criticism was completely lost on me for years.)

USELESS: "OMG this is so perfect PLEASE WRITE MORE!!" (I get this often. Hate it.)

USEFUL TO SOME PEOPLE, BUT NOT USEFUL TO ME: "FIX THIS SENTENCE, YOU FRIGGING DUMBASS!!" (Haven't gotten this yet because I make a point not to ask for critique from people with this style.)

USEFUL TO ME: "I really don't get this part of the story. Why did the character do this? It doesn't make sense in this context. They seem kind of 'flat' to me, so maybe you should develop them more. Also, this sentence seems awkward..." (Have gotten plenty of this, and appreciated it, even if it stung for a while or I didn't agree.)

See? Tactful, and honest. Helpful. To me.
Are these quotes from AW or are you making them up? I have yet to see these kinds of rude comments here unless the critter has been provoked by a jerk-wad of an original poster (yes, there are have been some of those who will come back to the critter with extreme obnoxiousness, and some critters do react).

If these are just made up examples, and this kind of thing doesn't happen here (or happens extremely rarely), why is it being discussed? As a writing community, AW is really good about the quality of crits (in my opinion). If a person goes over the line like in some of these examples, the mods will hear about it and act. Either they will read the comments themselves or the rude posts will be reported (which is what we all should do). Keep in mind, though, that if a crit is harsh but not rude, and it is reported, the mods are likely to come back to the reporter and tell them just that, with no action.

So my question is, how often do we see these obviously rude comments being passed around here in the various crit forums at AW? If it is extremely rare, why is this thread going on and on?

My feeling is that most of the problems in the crit forums come from original posters who just don't like what they hear in non-rude crits. It has been obvious in the past that some (a minute minority) of original posters expect to hear glowing feedback of their writing brilliance and get upset when they get called on things like telling instead of showing, purple prose, adverb promiscuity, and head-hopping. We get the full dose of how "rules" of writing stangle creativity as evidenced by the harsh crits of their brilliant prose. I think anyone who has been around here for more than a few years can immediately remember one or two interchanges like that.

My suggestion is to focus this discussion on AW, not on hypotheticals. Keep in mind that here:

If we get a rude crit, we should report it immediately. Period. But don't report a post if it is just blunt but not rude (there is a huge difference).

If we get a crit that is harsh, but not rude, it might be worthwhile to really step back a see if what the critter is saying has some merit, even if we don't agree with the details of the crit. If our attitude is that our writing couldn't possibly be that bad, we really DO need to take that step back for a serious look at what we posted.

If a critter misses what we think is an obvious part of a posted passage, and makes a crit that isn't accurate or applicable, we should step back and see if it is our fault that the critter didn't go where we think our words should have taken him/her. It's likely we failed in making the writing clear enough, rather than just the critter not reading carefully (which is the usual response).

If we are critting, we can heavily criticize a poorly-written post, but it should be done in a constructive manner, explaining why and how the writer's exerpt isn't yet of sufficient quality to be submitted (isn't this why people post in these forums--to get that kind of feedback, to gain that kind of learning opportunity?). "Harsh and helpful" are frequently the best crits because the harsh we see here is nothing like that seen in the real publishing world.

brainstorm77
02-08-2009, 09:04 PM
This thread was never about the ' work' or slamming the authors about their work. I posted it cause I did read some threads where some people were taking personal shots against the authors about their looks etc....

NeuroFizz
02-08-2009, 09:43 PM
Yes, I understand. But it seemed to have morphed into something else, as most long-running thread seem to do. I just refuse to do the LOL kitties thing.

brainstorm77
02-08-2009, 09:44 PM
Yes, I understand. But it seemed to have morphed into something else, as most long-running thread seem to do. I just refuse to do the LOL kitties thing.

ugh?

brainstorm77
02-08-2009, 09:54 PM
So Neuro is there a handbook on what to post and what not to post on AW? I'm very curious to know?

scarletpeaches
02-08-2009, 11:14 PM
Yes, it's called 'the rules'.

But regarding what this thread was originally about, if that happens, report the post, or mention something via rep point or PM to the person who posted it. Let them know you're offended; no-one here is a mind reader.

But there's a difference between saying something like, "That is NOT a flattering photo," and "ZOMG she is SO UGLY; how did she ever get published with a face like that? Christ on a bike, if I was her editor I'd VOMIT every time I had to look at her."

And yes, I called Christopher Paolini an arrogant little spod in another thread. I stand by it, though some might be offended. I would say he's disappeared up his own arse since he was published. Some more polite folks would say "He's lost sight of where he came from and is ignorant of his need to strive to improve."

Medievalist
02-08-2009, 11:35 PM
So Neuro is there a handbook on what to post and what not to post on AW? I'm very curious to know?

Yes: The Newbies Guide (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66315).

scarletpeaches
02-08-2009, 11:37 PM
I said that! I did, I did! :Jump:

brainstorm77
02-08-2009, 11:40 PM
Yes, it's called 'the rules'.

But regarding what this thread was originally about, if that happens, report the post, or mention something via rep point or PM to the person who posted it. Let them know you're offended; no-one here is a mind reader.

But there's a difference between saying something like, "That is NOT a flattering photo," and "ZOMG she is SO UGLY; how did she ever get published with a face like that? Christ on a bike, if I was her editor I'd VOMIT every time I had to look at her."

And yes, I called Christopher Paolini an arrogant little spod in another thread. I stand by it, though some might be offended. I would say he's disappeared up his own arse since he was published. Some more polite folks would say "He's lost sight of where he came from and is ignorant of his need to strive to improve."

I know those rules for respecting others.. I was referring to Neuro's dig at my post about my cat and the others where I used ' LOL'. Anyway I will not start some flame war about this. I have addressed him further in pvt and will await a response.

MacAllister
02-08-2009, 11:41 PM
This thread was never about the ' work' or slamming the authors about their work. I posted it cause I did read some threads where some people were taking personal shots against the authors about their looks etc....
And you've yet to provide ONE SINGLE LINK or even a quoted bit of real text to back up your vague, generalized assertions of a board culture of "rudeness."

In spite of multiple requests.


So Neuro is there a handbook on what to post and what not to post on AW? I'm very curious to know?
You've already been pointed at the Newbie Guide, multiple times. Are you actually reading anyone's replies, or would you rather just have the thread to yourself to beat on your big, self-righteous drum?

scarletpeaches
02-08-2009, 11:42 PM
brainstorm, he wasn't referring to your cat OR the fact you said 'LOL'.

There's a thing (for want of a better word) on AW whereby if a thread gets out of hand, to calm the situation down, folks start posting photos of LOLcats. (Have a look at the icanhazcheeseburger site to see what I'm referring to). It kills the situation with humour.

So while I can't speak for Rich, I'm confident he was referring to LOLcats or the AW tradition of asking, "Is it time for teh kitteh yet?"

scarletpeaches
02-08-2009, 11:47 PM
Um...not that I'd advocate arselickery but Mac's the last person on AW you want to offend.

*cough*

ANYHOO...is it time for teh kittehs yet?

brainstorm77
02-08-2009, 11:48 PM
And you've yet to provide ONE SINGLE LINK or even a quoted bit of real text to back up your vague, generalized assertions of a board culture of "rudeness."

In spite of multiple requests.


You've already been pointed at the Newbie Guide, multiple times. Are you actually reading anyone's replies, or would you rather just have the thread to yourself to beat on your big, self-righteous drum?

I really have to laugh at this ..... Its known that I was referring to the meyer/king thread.

Its fine for a mod to get digs in here left right and center.... but then again lemme guess the next thing thats gonna be said which has been said to many is .. If you don't like it feel free to leave right?

StevenJ
02-08-2009, 11:50 PM
Ha! These published authors have it easy! If I had a pound for every insult I've borne at AW, I'd have £ALotOfMoney! Why, just this week I've been called:

*A sheep-molesting moron.
*A metrosexual terminator.
*Sheepboy
*Sheepman
*Something else to do with sheep
*Welshgonk
*Welshcake
*Sheepanova
*Etc :D :D

brainstorm77
02-08-2009, 11:50 PM
brainstorm, he wasn't referring to your cat OR the fact you said 'LOL'.

There's a thing (for want of a better word) on AW whereby if a thread gets out of hand, to calm the situation down, folks start posting photos of LOLcats. (Have a look at the icanhazcheeseburger site to see what I'm referring to). It kills the situation with humour.

So while I can't speak for Rich, I'm confident he was referring to LOLcats or the AW tradition of asking, "Is it time for teh kitteh yet?"

SP if they want to ban me then thats life .. I suspect I can live without the board. I do enjoy certain points of it however I can do without other parts of it.
I went well over a year without looking in on this site. I came back to get some info .. so being banned does not scare me.

Mr Flibble
02-08-2009, 11:50 PM
I really have to laugh at this ..... Its known that I was referring to the meyer/king thread.


That was known? How? I have my ESP turned off today, so I can't tell

And even if it was, which particular bits were you referring to? Can you be, you know, specific, rather than confusing?

BTW, I refuse to respect SP any more. She refuses to respect Thor's ballbags, I refuse to respect her. :D

Medievalist
02-08-2009, 11:51 PM
I really have to laugh at this ..... Its known that I was referring to the meyer/king thread.

Its fine for a mod to get digs in here left right and center.... but then again lemme guess the next thing thats gonna be said which has been said to many is .. If you don't like it feel free to leave right?

No, actually, "everyone" doesn't know. Did you think the requests for more information--three of 'em--were decorative?

Again, you've been give all sorts of suggestions about what to do when you think there's a problem. What are you trying to accomplish?

MacAllister
02-08-2009, 11:52 PM
I really have to laugh at this ..... Its known that I was referring to the meyer/king thread.

Its fine for a mod to get digs in here left right and center.... but then again lemme guess the next thing thats gonna be said which has been said to many is .. If you don't like it feel free to leave right?Meh. "It is known" is ridiculous and I'm tempted to copy it to one of the thousands of passive-voice threads Medievalist gets so annoyed about.

A couple of people suggested it was about the Meyers-King thread - but there's STILL no link to the objectionable posts in question.

And frankly, cupcake, you're getting in some pretty good shots of your own, however passive-aggressive.

brainstorm77
02-08-2009, 11:52 PM
I do see myself as being rude to people on here or hurtful .. I do however see alot of it going on.
But if someone is going to try to go at me then yes I will respond without trying to start some kind of a war.

scarletpeaches
02-08-2009, 11:53 PM
If it's known you were referring to the Meyer/King thread, why not just come out with it and say so?

And at the risk of sounding like I'm siding with Mac JUST BECAUSE SHE OWNS THIS SITE (even though I'm not, I really do feel this way) I've yet to see any post where someone seriously digs in to a published author, rather than digs into their writing.

In the other thread I - quite forcefully I'll admit - sided with Stephen King. I'm not his greatest fan, but I respect the hell out of him for being honest in his opinions. We all have the right to free speech and he doesn't like Meyer's writing. Nowhere did he (or anyone else, I think) slag Meyer off personally. Just her writing.

And that's the nature of the beast. If you put your writing out there, you have to expect people to have an opinion on it, whether good or bad.

But I don't think Stephenie Meyer needs you to stand up for her - she has her brother for that (who filters everything through himself before telling her, "Yes, yes, Stephenie - everyone loves you," which is why she throws a shitfit on the rare occasions negative feedback actually reaches her).

Perks
02-08-2009, 11:53 PM
Well, that's the question I had from the beginning. I went back and scanned the King/Meyer thread and didn't see where it had devolved into a discussion about the way either of them looked.

There was one brief reference to weight loss in a single post, but I didn't see where that point got picked up as a driving topic.

brainstorm77
02-08-2009, 11:53 PM
Meh. "It is known" is ridiculous and I'm tempted to copy it to one of the thousands of passive-voice threads Medievalist gets so annoyed about.

A couple of people suggested it was about the Meyers-King thread - but there's STILL no link to the objectionable posts in question.

And frankly, cupcake, you're getting in some pretty good shots of your own, however passive-aggressive.

What shots am I getting in? Cause I don't see it.

Medievalist
02-08-2009, 11:54 PM
Meh. "It is known" is ridiculous and I'm tempted to copy it to one of the thousands of passive-voice threads Medievalist gets so annoyed about.

Do you really want to go there? Do you?

brainstorm77
02-08-2009, 11:54 PM
If it's known you were referring to the Meyer/King thread, why not just come out with it and say so?

And at the risk of sounding like I'm siding with Mac JUST BECAUSE SHE OWNS THIS SITE (even though I'm not, I really do feel this way) I've yet to see any post where someone seriously digs in to a published author, rather than digs into their writing.

In the other thread I - quite forcefully I'll admit - sided with Stephen King. I'm not his greatest fan, but I respect the hell out of him for being honest in his opinions. We all have the right to free speech and he doesn't like Meyer's writing. Nowhere did he (or anyone else, I think) slag Meyer off personally. Just her writing.

And that's the nature of the beast. If you put your writing out there, you have to expect people to have an opinion on it, whether good or bad.

But I don't think Stephenie Meyer needs you to stand up for her - she has her brother for that (who filters everything through himself before telling her, "Yes, yes, Stephenie - everyone loves you," which is why she throws a shitfit on the rare occasions negative feedback actually reaches her).

Its not about defending meyer .. I'm not a fan. I have yet to look at any of her books...

scarletpeaches
02-08-2009, 11:55 PM
That was known? How? I have my ESP turned off today, so I can't tell

And even if it was, which particular bits were you referring to? Can you be, you know, specific, rather than confusing?

BTW, I refuse to respect SP any more. She refuses to respect Thor's ballbags, I refuse to respect her. :D

I've got nothing but love for the ballbags. :D

scarletpeaches
02-08-2009, 11:56 PM
Its not about defending meyer .. I'm not a fan. I have yet to look at any of her books...

Then WTF is it about?

Can you give us specifics? If it's not about people slagging off or defending Meyer, who are you referring to?

Names? Times? Links? PROOF?

Mr Flibble
02-08-2009, 11:56 PM
So WHAT IS IT ABOUT THEN?

Come on, I'm dying to find out.

scarletpeaches
02-08-2009, 11:57 PM
So WHAT IS IT ABOUT THEN?

Come on, I'm dying to find out.

Hey! You took the words right out of my ballbags mouth.

Mods: Can I post a photo of Shannon Leto before this thread gets locked?

Rerail: Yes. I still want to know the specifics of what inspired this thread.

brainstorm77
02-08-2009, 11:58 PM
Then WTF is it about?

Can you give us specifics? If it's not about people slagging off or defending Meyer, who are you referring to?

Names? Times? Links? PROOF?

It originated with that thread but its a general comment on how a authors looks should not have any bearing on their writing ...

If someone looks less then perfect does that make them a crappy writer?

scarletpeaches
02-08-2009, 11:59 PM
No. Crappy writing makes you a crappy writer.

Lock thread.

brainstorm77
02-08-2009, 11:59 PM
Exactly and that was my whole point from the beginning!

Mr Flibble
02-09-2009, 12:00 AM
It originated with that thread but its a general comment on how a authors looks should not have any bearing on their writing ...

If someone looks less then perfect does that make them a crappy writer?

Um I think everyone agreed quite some time ago looks have F all to do with being a writer.

In fact no one has said otherwise, anywhere as far as I can see.

So, you started this thread why again?

Perks
02-09-2009, 12:00 AM
It originated with that thread but its a general comment on how a authors looks should not have any bearing on their writing

Right. When did this happen?

This is getting silly.

scarletpeaches
02-09-2009, 12:01 AM
Can I post Shannon yet?

(My version of teh kittehs...)

brainstorm77
02-09-2009, 12:01 AM
Um I think everyone agreed quite some time ago looks have F all to do with being a writer.

In fact no one has said otherwise, anywhere as far as I can see.

So, you started this thread why again?

To make the point that a authors looks and writing have nothing to do with each other.

scarletpeaches
02-09-2009, 12:03 AM
Which we all know.

Next up: scarletpeaches starts a thread entitled "I quite like Colin Farrell" and the population of AW drops dead of shock.

Mr Flibble
02-09-2009, 12:03 AM
To make the point that a authors looks and writing have nothing to do with each other.

But nobody has said otherwise, so why make a point we all know anyway ( and be deliberately vague about it too).

It's like starting a thread to say a paragraph needs sentences in it.

MacAllister
02-09-2009, 12:03 AM
Oh good lord.

No, SP. The answer is no. In fact, I'm going to challenge you to make it an entire week without posting any pics of anyone.

scarletpeaches
02-09-2009, 12:05 AM
Goddamn.

It'll be hard.

But for you, Mac, I can do it. I'll give it my best shot.

firedrake
02-09-2009, 12:05 AM
Goddamn.

It'll be hard.

But for you, Mac, I can do it. I'll give it my best shot.

send me your Colin Farrell Collection (the clean version) and I will post them for you...for a small fee.