religion in a non-christian book.

nevada · Feb 2, 2009

i've been thinking about this and i'm getting myself confused (no comments please) so I thought i'd ask here.

In my new novel, the second POV character is a 17 yr old boy-man (he is so not a teenager) who is very religious. and he does talk about God and religion. But the book is not religious in any way. However, his death in the end is directly caused by his religion and i believe that if i don't pave the way, the reader won't buy that he would sacrifice himself for a man who is not considered worth the sacrifice because it is the christian thing to do.

I have two problems.

1) The boy is an incarnation of an earlier version where he was raised by medieval monks since it started out as an historical/fantasy and now it's not. So maybe i'm hung up on the religion thing and it doesn't need to be so prominent and if i write him as generous and accepting etc his sacrifice won't be so unexpected.

Which leads directly to

2) I have not read a lot of mainstream books where religion is mentioned. In fact I have read some books where out of the blue a character will profess a belief in God which totally takes me out of the book. My problem is, is that me? I'm an atheist and I suppose we assume that characters are of our belief system so any mention of God and religion is, to me, a shock whereas to most people it might not be.

I guess I'm worried that if Marin talks about God that people will assume it's a christian novel. Am I overthinking this? I know I should follow my own advice that i like to throw at other people and just write it but part of the problem is I don't, can't, write a first draft where I just spit everything out and worry about the cohesion later. I write very clean and, as a consequence, very slowly. I agonize over every sentence, often writing it five to ten times before moving on. I know, I know. I've tried to do it differently but I can't.

Sorry, long post. Am I obsessing as a delay tactic? Or am I right to be worried about the overt mention of religion in a mainstream book that I am not sure will be literary. And if it is, it would be Canadian literary which is a different thing again. Gah, I'm overthinking this, aren't I? Sorry.

alleycat · Feb 2, 2009

You might like to take a look at Roger's Version by John Updike. I don't think anyone would accuse Mr. Updike of writing a religious book, even though religious thoughts and ideas are a main part of the story (along with some weird sex . . . ;-).

But yeah, I think you might be over thinking this a bit. Religion is a part of the human experience, whether someone is a believer in God or not. Love and sex are part of life too; just because they're a part of a book doesn't automatically make the book erotica or a romance.

Just an opinion.

Deccydiva · Feb 3, 2009

I don't have any religious references in mine, since I want to reach as wide an audience as possible. My own religion is vastly different to the predominant - and highly practised - one where I live. I prefer to accept that everyone has the free choice to go with whatever religion they are comfortable with, but for me it's not for discussion. If I picked up a novel that had any religious references in the back cover blurb, I would put it down again.
However, I respect the fact that we are all different and this is just my personal opinion. Interestingly, for all that this Country is pretty solidly one religion, none of the novels by indigenous authors have any reference to it either. there may be historical reasons, or again they may wish to reach a wider audience, I don't know.

citymouse · Feb 3, 2009

I have written a trilogy. I categorize these as intrigue/adventure.

My MC is Catholic and devout. Notice I didn't say he's a devout Catholic. Anyway I give him a history e.g. taught at a parochial school, mentored by a priest, French monk is his closest friend, and when he's in a bad place he prays. The focus is not religion but as many do, my guy turns to God from time to time. He's a Philadelphia attorney. His private motto, the one on his desk reads::
Facere iudicium. Diligere misericordiam. Sollicitum ambulare cum Deo tuo.
Do justice. Love mercy. Walk humbly in the sight of thy God.

No one reading these books would conclude they are about religion.
C

HeronW · Feb 3, 2009

Your beliefs and those of your characters can be alike or disparate without any harm. If it's part of the plot, belief whether in an organized religion, a cult, or anything else is valid for your characters.

Kats · Feb 3, 2009

Another book that features religion but isn't a religious book is A Certain Slant of Light by Laura Whitcomb. I've just read it, and didn't find the mention of religion distracting even though I'm not religious.

citymouse · Feb 3, 2009

Nevada, another thought. I wouldn't do an info dump but rather bit feed your character's background gradually. Readers often skip broad info dumps (not a good thing) and it breaks the rule that says a reader will remember something if it is stated more than once over time rather as a one time event.
C

josephwise · Feb 3, 2009

You suggested this yourself, but I'll reinforce it:

My advice is to focus on the character traits that drive him to be religeous. "Being religeous" is not a character trait. People turn to religeon for different reasons.

If you can show those reasons, and show how they affect all aspects of his life, you won't have to focus on the religeon. It will just be another facet of his behavior, something off to the side of things. Religeon will belong to the character, not to the book.

Do it well, and his sacrifice will make sense in a very human way.

Mr Flibble · Feb 3, 2009

Just because a character is religious does not automatically make me think 'Oooh Christian!' But that could just be me

Just because a character is religious does not make it a religious book, much less a Christian one.

Treat it as you would any other aspect of his personality that you wish to show. Subtly.

RainyDayNinja · Feb 3, 2009

Any mention of religion is sure to alienate SOME readers. There will be some (especially in science fiction) who will think that portraying a religious character as anything other than a complete douchebag amounts to shoving religion down their throat. Likewise, some religious people will think that it's unrealistic to have any character sharing their faith have any character flaws. The best you can do is make sure that nobody's world-view comes off as superior.

quickWit · Feb 3, 2009

Nevada, unless your novel turns into one long preach-fest I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'm not a particularly spiritual person myself, but reading about a character's beliefs doesn't turn me off as a reader, it simply provides further insight into that character like any other component of their life.

But hey, that's just me.

nevada · Feb 3, 2009

thanks everyone for your input. no worries about the info dumping, i don't do those. even one line of info dumping makes me cringe. lol even though i know it's necessary. and it won't be a preach fest. so i guess i just need to shut up now and write. *sigh* easier said than done. (can we have a peach fest. i like fresh peaches.

)

jclarkdawe · Feb 3, 2009

Remember that our society is based a lot on Christian religion and philosophy. In the US, we put "In God we trust" on our coins.

Depending upon the genre you write in, religion is going to enter on occasion. Even if you are an atheist, it enters your world. Sporting events frequent start with prayers, churches are on the sides of our roads, and people put up crosses where a relative died on the road.

The book I'm working on now, GEORGE'S STORY (yeah, the title sucks -- ask me if I care) involves a 73-year-old man who the doctor has told he is going to die. Do you think he'll think of God? Hell, at the moment he's trying to cut a deal with God to let him live longer. Despite going to church every week, he isn't especially religious, and isn't even sure God exists.

But this is typical of a lot of people. It's not a religious book (and in places will offend some religious people), but the character will hopefully be a believable human being. In other words, a real person.

Don't worry about whether your book is religious, worry about whether your characters are real people.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Cyia · Feb 3, 2009

Not sure if this will help you or not, but it's how I go about writing an Agnostic as a Christian.

Try to figure out why you believe what you do (like a bullet list of say 5 points), then write them in the inverse.

(Just an example; not preaching)

In my list:

"I beleive Jesus was the son of God because he fulfilled the prophetical accounts of the Messiah."

would become:

"The Bible is only one source of information contained to and by a particular belief system; I would need more evidence than this to convince me that a deity could/would/did conceive a human child."

I don't share the beliefs of an Agnostic, but I think I could write a convincing one.

nevada · Feb 3, 2009

thanks cyia, but what i believe has nothing to do with it. i was just trying to find out how much religion could be mentioned before people start to think about it as a christian book. certainly there wont be any preaching or expounding on religious beliefs. the only reason why i mentioned my own beliefs is that to me, living in such a secular world, and even canada is quite a secular country, any mention of religion in a book surprises me. and i was trying to figure out if that was because of my environment or if religion is left out of books on purpose.

I really am impressed with the way you reverse argue a point. what a fantastic way to come to understand someone else's beliefs. about anything really, not just religion, but politics, movies, anything.

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 3, 2009

nevada said:
i was just trying to find out how much religion could be mentioned before people start to think about it as a christian book.

It would depend what religion it was, obviously. You can put an awful lot of Sikhism in a book before anyone starts to think about it as a "Christian book."

I myself am always startled by a lot of religious talk in a book that isn't upfront about religion. If I'm reading The Chosen by Chaim Potok, I know that it's a book about a young man's conflicts with his religious community, so I'm not surprised. Now, when I was reading Dear Neighbor, Drop Dead by Saralee Rosenberg, I was kind of surprised by how suddenly it went from a chick-litty "Desperate Housewives" kind of a thing to the tearful reunion of two Holocaust survivors at a bat mitzvah.

On the other hand, the Jan Karon "Mitford, North Carolina" books, which have an Episcopal priest as their protagonist, are beloved by lots of people I know who are not religious and/or not from a Christian background.

Cyia · Feb 3, 2009

nevada said:
thanks cyia, but what i believe has nothing to do with it. i was just trying to find out how much religion could be mentioned before people start to think about it as a christian book. certainly there wont be any preaching or expounding on religious beliefs. the only reason why i mentioned my own beliefs is that to me, living in such a secular world, and even canada is quite a secular country, any mention of religion in a book surprises me. and i was trying to figure out if that was because of my environment or if religion is left out of books on purpose.

I really am impressed with the way you reverse argue a point. what a fantastic way to come to understand someone else's beliefs. about anything really, not just religion, but politics, movies, anything.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

In that case, I've seen a lot of books where the characters profess beliefs that didn't come across as Christian books, but simply books with Christians in them.

As long as there's nothing that sounds like "And the lesson for today is..." you should be fine.

nevada · Feb 3, 2009

Cyia said:
As long as there's nothing that sounds like "And the lesson for today is..." you should be fine.

Well damn, there goes the intro for each chapter. *sigh*

kidding.

Sirius · Feb 3, 2009

Cyia said:
Not sure if this will help you or not, but it's how I go about writing an Agnostic as a Christian.

Try to figure out why you believe what you do (like a bullet list of say 5 points), then write them in the inverse....

I don't share the beliefs of an Agnostic, but I think I could write a convincing one.

Speaking as an agnostic, I'm very wary about that approach. I'm aware that there are multiple kinds of agnostics, just as there are many different sorts of Christians. I end up writing Christian characters a great deal, since I write historical fiction set in Victorian England, and the term "agnostic" wasn't invented until 1869, and the last prosecution for atheism occurred some time in the 1830s. And the Church of England is the Established Church, the King James Bible is the Authorised Version and having a character not be a member of the Established Church or do something like wear a crucifix or refuse to swear an oath because "let one's yes be yes and one's no be no" becomes a hugely important characterisation tool.

So I'd be very surprised if anyone thought my books were particularly religious, but there is an awful lot of religion in them, and it's something which I research just as I'd research any other facet of world I'm building.

GirlWithPoisonPen · Feb 3, 2009

IdiotsRUs said:
Just because a character is religious does not automatically make me think 'Oooh Christian!' But that could just be me

Just because a character is religious does not make it a religious book, much less a Christian one.

Treat it as you would any other aspect of his personality that you wish to show. Subtly.

I agree with this entirely. I have a pastor as a character, but that doesn't make my book religious.

benbradley · Feb 3, 2009

As others have responded, religion is a powerful force in many people and cultures, just as many emotions, drives and motivations, and any of these can be used as the reasons characters make various decisions. Religions are often integrated into popular "secular" novels as part of the millieu the characters live in.

"Roger's Version" was interesting in that (as I saw it, and among other things) it explored a couple of different beliefs and different meanings of what it means to be Christian. The student is a fundamentalist from a rural area who believed he could prove the existence of God mathematically. He went to a religion-based (Catholic? I forget) college where his advisor was a much more liberal Christian, but didn't neccesarily let on to his true beliefs. The prof perhaps didn't even believe at all, yet "went along," going to Church services and such as part of keeping his position as a college professor at a religious school.

A big example of a "secular" book in which Christianity is an integral part is "The Exorcist." It was a quite popular book before being made into the movie of the same name.

And dare I mention "The Godfather?" I didn't read it but I saw the movie. The characters' Catholicism, brought with them from their Italian heritage, is an important part of the story.

Incorporating Islam is "The Satanic Verses" which I tried to read but just couldn't get into or understand.

Piers Anthony's "Hasan" (much more serious than his Xanth series - no puns here!) is set in a desert land where Islam is the dominant religion, and back when I read it (1980's) I knew little to nothing about Islam, but I was impressed with the amount of research I presumed the author did about the religion and the culture around it, such as eating food with only the right hand (do I have that right?). The way I see it, by using a religion that the main audience is unfamiliar with, the author was able to have it as part of the backstory without having the reader be suspicious that the story would eventually proselytize.

religion in a non-christian book.

nevada

alleycat

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Deccydiva

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citymouse

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HeronW

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Kats

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Mr Flibble

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nevada

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nevada

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