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veinglory
05-24-2005, 01:01 AM
Or a reasonable approximation. I need to know how the words 'I summon you' might be written by a French priest/scholar (Roman Catholic).

(edited to correct)

Medievalist
05-24-2005, 03:17 AM
There wouldn't have been any. Roman converts brought Christianity to Gaul in the second century, but it was still largely pagan for a couple hundred years more--the first Christian king was Clovis, and his conversion was a Really Big Deal.

veinglory
05-24-2005, 12:03 PM
I was going by the many references to St Patrick studying in a monastry in Gaul around 409. So some form of organised Christianity must have been established. The church the inscription is currently in a Roman Catholic church document but the origin need only be Christian of some sort. Any ideas?

Torin
05-24-2005, 02:52 PM
I think the confusion is that the heading of the thread is 1st Century Church Latin, and now it turns out your reference is fifth century. In any case, Latin hasn't changed any in about 2000 years, and the phrase you're looking for would be:

Te voco (singular you)
Vos voco (plural you)

veinglory
05-24-2005, 02:53 PM
Sorry, quite right. Had a minor brainfart whilst typing the subject line. Thanks a lot.

raffaella
05-24-2005, 03:51 PM
Hi, my latin is so rusty it barely sets my brain wheels in motion, but you might want to consider ADVOCARE as a verb (come to me) rather than VOCARE (Call). Plus, Priests often use "we" rather than "I" if the occasion is formal or public. If it's your case, then you should have TE ADVOCAMUS.

veinglory
05-24-2005, 04:29 PM
Thanks!

Torin
05-24-2005, 04:42 PM
But "advocamus" means "we call". Advoco is "I call". Mind you, there's always the royal we, as it were. :)

raffaella
05-24-2005, 07:37 PM
I think we are saying the same thing... If the priest is talking in public or writing an official paper he might use WE (ex. during a sermon or a prayer for someone) because of what he represents, if it's a personal situation, a letter, etc and he doesn't suffer from split personality, then he would use first person.

Perhaps Veinglory could tell us more? Now I'm getting curious!

Medievalist
05-24-2005, 08:36 PM
I think we are saying the same thing... If the priest is talking in public or writing an official paper he might use WE (ex. during a sermon or a prayer for someone) because of what he represents, if it's a personal situation, a letter, etc and he doesn't suffer from split personality, then he would use first person.

Perhaps Veinglory could tell us more? Now I'm getting curious!

I think she needs to; now that I know the correct era, there are scads of primary resources I can point her to. The fifth century in France is the end of Gaulish as a common language, and the rise of the Franks, a Germanic people.

veinglory
05-24-2005, 09:02 PM
I would be nice to get it bang on. The short phrase is meant to have been wrtten by Maewyn/Patricus shortly before his death.

Medievalist
05-24-2005, 10:48 PM
I would be nice to get it bang on. The short phrase is meant to have been wrtten by Maewyn/Patricus shortly before his death.

Is he writing to a single person or group?

Is the person (s) higher or lower in status than Patricus?

veinglory
05-24-2005, 11:54 PM
He is writing to a single younger person (student/acolyte)

raffaella
05-25-2005, 02:42 PM
I would probably use first person, unless he is writing on behalf of the Catholic community giving him some kind of task. He might still want to use first person to convey the sense of his authority.

Sunrise2Fantasy
06-02-2005, 08:08 AM
GOOGLE! Google hates me now, and doesnt work for me, but you might be one of those lucky people...anyways....theres a popular site if you type in 'english-latin dictionary/online dictionary/translations' its ro-matic something. If you cant find it, generally any other site is fine as long as it gives you what you need.

Aconite
06-02-2005, 02:58 PM
theres a popular site if you type in 'english-latin dictionary/online dictionary/translations' its ro-matic something.

S2F, those sites are not very good for this kind of thing, which requires historical knowledge as well as knowledge of the subtleties of language. Translating words in one language into equivalent words of another language does not give you a proper translation, it just gives you word salad.

Hmm. Those sites would explain some of the..creative...use of language in LKH's novels....

Sunrise2Fantasy
06-02-2005, 09:35 PM
Aconite, for the sake of conversation, the sites do help, especially if you can find a site that shows conjugations and forms of words in latin. For this persons type of book, I dont think she/he actually wanted to delve into history of the language. If she did then there are multiple ways to look it up on the internet or library or some language teacher who MIGHT have had some latin lessons or whatever.
Let me point this out to you as well-most words when you translate from one language to another dont come up as the exact same meaning. Whether or not she took my way into a suggestion, theres always going to be that type of situation. But if she looks up a word of say 'sword' and the latin translation means 'knife, sword,' or 'weapon' as long as she specifies what it meant to the reader, {for definitions sake as well as what specific meaning she aimed for} it doesnt matter. Like I said before, it doesnt matter, cuz it happens in every language translation.
I dont understand how the sites would give a 'creative' edge to his/her novels, care to explain?

Sunrise2Fantasy
06-02-2005, 09:35 PM
sorry I have posted the wrong title in my last post....i was thinking of another thread i had been writing in.....

Aconite
06-03-2005, 12:06 AM
S2F, veinglory needed to know how a priest in Gaul in the fifth century would have written a certain phrase in Church Latin. That does require a knowledge of the history of the language, as well as history in general. Veinglory came here to ask for the appropriate expert help.

I am well aware that a word in one language doesn't necessarily translate exactly. I said that if you take a sentence in English (or any language) and try to make it Latin (or any language) by translating it word for word, it's going to be word salad, because languages don't work that way. It doesn't matter if every word is perfectly declined or conjugated or whatever; the structure and meaning will not be correct. I can give you a simple example: one first-year French student translated "happy birthday" as "heureuse jour de natal." Even if the form of each word were correct, that phrase still isn't "happy birthday" in French, although the words mean "happy day of birth." "Happy birthday" in French is "joyeux anniversaire." (Someone please feel free to correct my spelling.)

And that's what I was referring to when I mentioned LKH's (Laurell K. Hamilton's) "creative" use of foreign languages in her novels. The words may be right...more or less...but the phrases aren't what a native speaker would use.

raffaella
06-03-2005, 12:23 AM
That would be JOYEUX (sorry I couldn't resist!), but I agree 100% with the rest of your message. Translators are helpful when survival is on the line though...

Sarita
06-03-2005, 12:23 AM
Aconite: This is SO true. I work in translation for market research. Occasionally we can't meet one of our clients needs and will have to outsource. There have been a few translation companies that used these sites and oh man! Shoddy work. Translation websites can be valuable if you need one word here and there, but that's basically using them as a dictionary if you don't have one handy. Other than that, they can't be trusted to do accurate translation.

Aconite
06-03-2005, 12:38 AM
That would be JOYEUX (sorry I couldn't resist!),

No reason to resist--I asked for corrections. Thank you. I'll edit that now. I haven't had to spell anything in French for a loooong time.

Sunrise2Fantasy
06-03-2005, 05:46 AM
Aconite-
I only see a post from the person about the latin words 'I summon you' if they said anything else then my mistake, but I was talking about the words....I only read the first post the writer made, but I'll read the rest to see if theres anything about a gual dude.