Issuing apologies

Jeff · May 22, 2005

I'll start this off by saying that I am not very good at forgiving. It is a fault of mine, at times. At other times, I consider it one of my strengths. Too often, I think, people are not held to a basic minimum standard of honor and integrity -- and they are too slow or indeed unable to apologize for their incorrect and/or harmful statements or actions.

I have not been on writing sites for long. I have read much of the back content here in what interested me. That done, I've recently been reading the back-threads in some other writing boards, some of which are authored by those who now post here. To say that what I have read is eye-opening would be an understatement. To say that some apologies are owed by some who now find themselves trying to post here towards some of the folks who have been posting here for a longer time is obvious.

To see that those apologies have not been made public, as the disparagements were, has indeed changed my opinion of some of the folks around here for the worse.

Everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes people get on the wrong side of an issue. It is possible indeed to say things that you might later regret.

But if you are going to disparge someone in a public place and then later find out you were wrong -- and now expect to share a public space with them, I think the honorable thing to do is to issue that public apology.

It is easy to talk about honor. It is harder to walk that talk.

James D. Macdonald · May 22, 2005

I think that ... those for whom this is meant will understand what was meant. If you don't know what's going on, you weren't the target audience.

Ken Schneider · May 22, 2005

I must say I'm sorry to all the people that I mis-spoke about to include Jenna. Jumping on the bandwagon of ignorance is not good.

I'm sorry to the posters of another board which I have banned myself from for giving out TMI. I thought it was in fun, but was instead in bad taste.

An apology to anyone that thinks I owe them one. You are welcome to remind me.

Ken

NancyMehl · May 22, 2005

Jeff,

I appreciate the spirit in which you started this thread. It is apparent to me that you are bothered not only by those who have hurt you in the past - but are also concerned about people you may have offended.

I respect anyone who cares enough to try to deal with these concerns rather than dismissing them as unimportant.

Just wanted you to know....

Nancy

P.S. I am quite serious about my above post. But because this is the "Take it Outside" board, I must tell you that everything that happens is actually Dawno's fault anyway. Just blame it all on her. <S>

MacAllister · May 22, 2005

okay...first, I'd like to point out that Jenna has never insisted on a public apology from anyone, for them to be welcome here. Although it's very nice when it happens.

Second--if the slights and fights happen between two members somewhere ELSE, I think a public apology here, frankly, is asking rather a lot.

third--will ya'll non-PAers pleeeeeaaaase, pleeeeaaase, PRETTY please, STOP baiting the PA folk? They've been through a lot.

Thank you.

JennaGlatzer · May 22, 2005

I've deleted several posts in this topic.

If you don't know what this is about, that's OK, but there is a legitimate point here that you may not understand. And if you have no idea what goes on in the PA thread, that's fine, too, but do not assume it isn't important. 12,000 writers were gravely misled (to put it nicely) and I find that rather important.

Chang, you're still my hero.
I hold anyone who would apologize publicly in very high regard. It has become an issue because of the many new people who've come on board lately, and I think we're all damn glad they're here. But some of us would be even gladder if they stepped up to the plate and said sorry to the people they may have piled on before they got here.

brokenfingers · May 22, 2005

Hello Jenna,

I understand the whole PA thing and I do agree it is an important fight – one that has implications for all writers.

But there are many, many other members here who deal daily with bad situations also. The mental anguish of their failing personal health, the bad health of their loved ones, dire financial situations, family and friends dying or being killed or killing themselves and so on and so on – not to mention being scammed by bad agents, getting rejected by legitimate publishing houses and magazines and all the other writing related headaches. We are all going through our own particular situations. I understand and sympathize with these people going through these problems.

But if someone got a bad deal on a bad book – I don’t think they should come through here waving a special “Hands Off – Don’t mess with me, I’m a Victim” card. We all have a responsibility to act as adults and professionals – regardless of outside circumstances. Yeah, they got a bad deal and that sucks but that doesn’t mean they can throw a hissy fit or become unhinged – especially when there are other members facing much graver problems and handling them with infinite more grace.

Jeff started a thread that didn’t identify who it was intended for and when a member came on being flippant – Jeff got offended and claimed his thread was being hijacked. Then when it was pointed out that we were being flippant because we didn’t know the thread was intended for PA warriors only – he got all huffy and declared this the TIO zone and we shouldn’t be surprised that it was a free fire zone.

I didn’t come here to get anybody all riled up – hell, that’s why I stay away from the PA threads. I’ve got enough aggravation in my life – I come here to get away from it. I come here to associate with others who are going through the particular trials that come with the writing life.

So, Peace my brothers and sisters. And since this is the Issuing Apologies thread:

I apologize, Jenna.

Jeff · May 22, 2005

Despite the whining elsewhere, I want to say thanks for getting the thread back on track, Jenna. Hopefully, it will now be able to go somewhere and do some good.

For my part, it's been amazing. Just amazing. I had no idea. I do now. It's been an education.

-Jeff

Oh, and now the lurkers really do support me in email.

Aconite · May 23, 2005

MacAllister said:
okay...first, I'd like to point out that Jenna has never insisted on a public apology from anyone, for them to be welcome here. Although it's very nice when it happens.

Which was what I read in Jeff's post. He's not saying anyone has to apologize. He's saying it would be a fine thing to do.

Second--if the slights and fights happen between two members somewhere ELSE, I think a public apology here, frankly, is asking rather a lot.

Hmm. If I insult you at a party, and later I'm hired at the company you work for and we're going to see each other every day, should I not apologize to you there because I insulted you somewhere else? I should apologize because it's the right thing to do, regardless of where the incident took place. If I insulted you in public, my apology should be public. If I offended you privately, my apology should likewise be private.

Jeff · May 23, 2005

Yup.

My take is simple: If you and I disagreed on something and I used it as an excuse to insult you, and then I subsequently found out that you were correct and I was wrong, common sense and honor says that I owe you an apology if we are going to be spending time working together towards a common goal.

And if I insulted you in public, then a public apology is called for. This is stuff we learned in third grade, folks. Sheesh.

Doing so takes the onus off the offender and places it on the offendee, which might help them to start to heal.

-Jeff

Dawno · May 23, 2005

changling said:
I must say I'm sorry to all the people that I mis-spoke about to include Jenna. Jumping on the bandwagon of ignorance is not good.

I'm sorry to the posters of another board which I have banned myself from for giving out TMI. I thought it was in fun, but was instead in bad taste.

An apology to anyone that thinks I owe them one. You are welcome to remind me.

Ken

It is I who owe you an apology, Ken. You did nothing worth banning yourself for and I'm the one who didn't write clearly in my post that I was not being serious. It's one of the drawbacks to posting that words on the screen often don't come off the way the person writing them meant.

BTW, I thought your comments were very funny and was actually hoping you'd go for escalating to new heights of hysteria. I'm rather miserable that I caused you any grief.

JennaGlatzer · May 23, 2005

See, now that's cute.

I've written about this issue before, but it seems those outside the PA loop (or maybe those who've recently joined it) do need a little explanation.

We're not talking about "so-and-so said my momma doesn't know how to dress me."

I could give you many examples of PA pile-ons. Here are but a few:

On PA, Victoria Strauss and Ann Crispin were called plagiarists and whores. A whole group of PA authors jumped in to eagerly join the bloodbath. PA itself put up a special web page just to insult them, and the authors happily applauded. Victoria and Ann have been two of the strongest fighters on behalf of authors for many years, volunteering their time to help others stay out of trouble.

Dave Kuzminski was accused of being a child pornographer, and his web designer was attacked even though he had nothing to do with the fight against PA. PA bought his trademarked domain name. Again, PA authors happily jumped in to make Dave sound like a pervert, and again, Dave has been one of the strongest fighters against writing scams.

PA writers contacted media entities to try to discredit me after I appeared on NBC, telling reporters that all my books are self-published and I didn't know what I was talking about. On the boards, one author made it his mission to spread lies about me and to encourage everyone to write bad reviews of my books on Amazon and unsubscribe from AW. Again, more than a dozen writers happily chimed in to hit below the belt.

PA publicized that one author was "mentally ill for years" and a former stripper, and the authors' reaction was along the lines of, "Ha! You tell 'em, PA!" Keep in mind that this was one of their own authors still under contract.

Know what? PA authors, you may not even remember taking part in some of those attacks. Attacking the "bashers" was such a normal part of life on the PA boards that it may not be memorable to you, but it's memorable to those who were attacked.

For my own part, there's no one here now who I think owes me an apology. I remembered Kas when he showed up because I was crawling out of my skin wanting to respond to his comments on PA, and it was hard for me to welcome him here. When he went above and beyond to apologize to me publicly, it meant the world to me and healed a lot of those old wounds. Like Jean Marie said, she also apologized to me privately. This took so much of the sting away.

I would love for others to have that same kind of experience. I can't name names because I don't know who was involved (and wouldn't want to embarrass them even if I did). I'm just echoing Jeff's sentiments that it would be great for any of them to take responsibility and say "I'm sorry" to the people who were hurt, now that you know that those people are the ones who've been volunteering to fight for your benefit all along.

Celeste · May 23, 2005

OMG! These people in this PA cult are wicked, aren't they! I had no idea it gets that nasty! Whew!

astonwest · May 23, 2005

JennaGlatzer said:
Know what? PA authors, you may not even remember taking part in some of those attacks. Attacking the "bashers" was such a normal part of life on the PA boards that it may not be memorable to you, but it's memorable to those who were attacked.

I believe the proper psychological terms are 'cognitive dissonance' and 'dissociative disorders', but it's been a while since I studied about those...

Ken Schneider · May 23, 2005

Thanks Jenna, and Dawno, I've made my apology, and all who cared have seen it.

I feel I am welcome here, and will continue to post freely until Jenna says that I am not welcome. If and when that would happen, I would bow out with with no ill feelings and with understanding.

I won't apologize again for my P.A. brainwashed comments. I have done that.
Should I offend someone in another way, I am man enough to make that apology when the time comes.

Again, Thank you Jenna for your good heart and understanding, I won't let you down.

Dawno, I should return to that board, and will.

MacAllister · May 23, 2005

Aconite said:

Hmm. If I insult you at a party, and later I'm hired at the company you work for and we're going to see each other every day, should I not apologize to you there because I insulted you somewhere else?

Sure. An apology would be terrific. However, if we are working at a company together, I am an adult, and a professional. My mental health does not depend on whether YOU are too.

And, if you insulted me at a party, as welcome as your apology would be, I certainly would have no expectation that you would stand up during a business meeting--or hijack the public address microphone--for the sake of proferring that apology.

Now--if you'll recall, there were several posts voluntarily deleted before mine. I was NOT, in fact, responding directly and specifically to Jeff--although he was certainly included in my intended audience.

More, I was pointing out that while Jeff can certainly demand an apology on his own--this board typically has not made such demands. Although in at least one case, I remember where an apology was specifically asked for, and in another case, an apology was strongly suggested.

I rather fear that posting a general demand for anyone who has said anything bad on another forum about AW and its members reads very badly, indeed. I think it would reflect poorly on our character here, for that to be an official policy. I also think it would tend to distance us--thus drastically reducing our effectiveness as both a refuge and a source of information and education.

I also think many of the writers I see coming out of the PA system are shocked, carrying a sense of artificial guilt, feel embarrassed; in general, these folks have a hard enough time showing up over here, ANYWAY.

I deeply fear that this entire thread is going to serve more to intimidate and distance THOSE authors, than to reach the people it's actually intended for. That would be regretable.

Ken's public apology on both boards was downright heroic. However, I think that a terrible and intimidating standard to expect on a regular basis--I think it would be both uncharitable and downright mean to demand such...and it does indeed read as Haskins suggested in his deleted posts, "So now you wanna come play--well, you damn well better eat some crow first..."

I personally want no part of that. I find it petty and distasteful. I have refrained from saying so--because I also support Jeff's (and your) right to feel differently. However, I also have never been called nasty names by anyone who later showed up here, expecting me to welcome them with open arms.

I strongly encourage people said hurtful things about Jenna, Victoria, Anne, Dave, Uncle Jim or anyone else, to contact those individuals through PM and make peace. I have NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER to read those apologies. It's frankly none of my business, and makes me uncomfortable in that "oh hell, I wish I wasn't inadvertantly overhearing this" sort of way.

So, yes, I disagree with Jeff--EVEN WHILE I understand and applaud the sentiments. But I have as much right to disagree as you have to agree--that's part of respecting one another.

Ultimately, this is Jenna's board. I will absolutely support her decision on the matter, regardless.

Jean Marie · May 23, 2005

Jenna, thanks very much for what you said.

And Kas, you'd better be on your best behavior, ya hear!!

victoriastrauss · May 23, 2005

MacAllister said:
I strongly encourage people said hurtful things about Jenna, Victoria, Anne, Dave, Uncle Jim or anyone else, to contact those individuals through PM and make peace. I have NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER to read those apologies. It's frankly none of my business, and makes me uncomfortable in that "oh hell, I wish I wasn't inadvertantly overhearing this" sort of way.

I absolutely agree. I think we need to leave it up to people's individual consciences, and keep it private.

Apologizing is like quitting drinking or drugs: the person has to want it. If it's forced or coerced, it's not real.

- Victoria

DaveKuzminski · May 23, 2005

Forced apologies from individuals lack sincerity and meaning. That's why I've never demanded any from people.

However, businesses don't have any feelings to begin with, so apologies from them usually have no meaning unless those are forced.

Jeff · May 23, 2005

Aconite said: Sure. An apology would be terrific. However, if we are working at a company together, I am an adult, and a professional. My mental health does not depend on whether YOU are too.

Others who were actually involved, of course, may feel differently.

And, if you insulted me at a party, as welcome as your apology would be, I certainly would have no expectation that you would stand up during a business meeting--or hijack the public address microphone--for the sake of proferring that apology.

Apples and oranges.

Now--if you'll recall, there were several posts voluntarily deleted before mine. I was NOT, in fact, responding directly and specifically to Jeff--although he was certainly included in my intended audience.

I appreciate that, although I have read the mocking posts that you as a moderator have made in another thread that pertained to some things I have said here and did not appreciate them.

More, I was pointing out that while Jeff can certainly demand a policy on his own--this board typically has not made such demands.

Oh please, spare me, Mac. I was not demanding anything, let alone a new board "policy". That is just silly. I have no authority to do so. I was commenting on what is right and what is honorable. I have that right. Others came here to hijack the thread because I did not take kindly to smarta$$es. Plain fact.

Although in at least one case, I remember where an apology was specifically asked for, and in another case, an apology was strongly suggested. for anyone who has said anything bad on another forum about AW and its members reads very badly, indeed. I think it would reflect poorly on our character here, for that to be an official policy.

I agree, but that is Jenna's decision - and you are misrepresenting what I said.

I also think many of the writers I see coming out of the PA system are shocked, carrying a sense of artificial guilt, feel embarrassed; in general, these folks have a hard enough time showing up over here, ANYWAY. I deeply fear that this entire thread is going to serve more to intimidate and distance THOSE authors, than to reach the people it's actually intended for. That would be regretable.

If THOSE authors have something they need to apologise for, then they should do it. If their conscience is clear, then this thread will mean nothing to them, as it meant nothing originally to most of the folks who hijacked it. You will notice that nowhere in my OP did I mention PA.

Ken's public apology on both boards was downright heroic. However, I think that a terrible and intimidating standard to expect on a regular basis--I think it would be both uncharitable and downright mean to demand such...and it does indeed read as Haskins suggested in his deleted posts, "So now you wanna come play--well, you damn well better eat some crow first..."

How silly. You still labor under the thought that I was demanding a change in board policy. I assure you Mac, I know how to write and I can communicate clearly. If I wanted a change in board policy, I would have called for one. What I did ask for is that people behave with honor and apologise for their harmful and boorish behaviour. Some of those who posted on this thread who had their posts removed could easily be included in that as well.

I personally want no part of that.

Good God man, no one asked you to take part in it.

I find it petty and distasteful. I have refrained from saying so--because I also support Jeff's (and your) right to feel differently.

All the while making snarky comments on the other thread, eh? Suuuuuure.

However, I also have never been called nasty names by anyone who later showed up here, expecting me to welcome them with open arms.

Neither have I, but my parents instilled in me an appreciation of good manners and the concept of personal honor and that is the base from which I spoke from.

I strongly encourage people said hurtful things about Jenna, Victoria, Anne, Dave, Uncle Jim or anyone else, to contact those individuals through PM and make peace. I have NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER to read those apologies. It's frankly none of my business, and makes me uncomfortable in that "oh hell, I wish I wasn't inadvertantly overhearing this" sort of way.

While I appreciate your moderator status, I don't get where you get to decide everything that gets posted here on AW, or where simply whatever makes you 'uncomfortable" should not be posted. But that is just me. I have strange ideas about things like honor sometimes.

Read or don't or ignore and move on.

So, yes, I disagree with Jeff--EVEN WHILE I understand and applaud the sentiments. But I have as much right to disagree, as you have to agree--that's part of respecting one another.

And making fun of other AW posters on the "why I will not post here..."
thread is "respecting" them? Sorry Mac. Don't buy it. Maybe you should "put me on ignore", eh?

Ultimately, this is Jenna's board. I will absolutely support her decision on the matter, regardless.

Thank goodness for that.

Jeff · May 23, 2005

Can anyone point out to me where I asked that people be compelled or "forced" to apologise? What the heck are you guys even talking about and how does it apply to the OP?

Sheesh.

I must really be missing something here. Someone help me out.

MacAllister · May 23, 2005

Jeff--where was I snarky about or to you on another thread? Point me that direction. Put up a link.

I certainly did not intend to say anything hurtful, but occasionally I'm a smart-@ss. If my post was indeed about you, I'll edit or remove it.

Also, while I recognize that you did not suggest a change in board policy--I'm not the only member who read your post as a demand--however nicely worded.

Jeff · May 23, 2005

On second thought, forget it.

It's occured to me that I don't even have a dog in this fight, and here I am trying to untangle the leashes. I've spent a lot of time in the last few weeks talking with folks who no longer participate here. I am slowly starting to see why.

It's a shame to get to that point, but this is still the best site on the internet is for what it does, so this is the point where I lay down the hatchet and walk away from this fight. I'll be re-assuming my previous mild-mannered reading and writing personae with an occasional comment or two.

Simply, it's not my fight, and the aggravation ain't worth it. It's no longer about what is right or wrong, its about *who* is right and who is wrong. People are no longer listening, and that is always a sad thing.

And that is all I know about that.

Nothing to see here. Go on, move along. It's all over folks.

No, I mean it.

Sheesh.

Ken Schneider · May 23, 2005

Blows candle out.

Jeff · May 23, 2005

My thread was a sincere attempt to speak to certain people about the value of apologising for past bad behaviour. I noted to several of the rude people who hijacked my thread that if what I said somehow offended them, that they were welcome to place me on ignore so that we would not have to have conflict. On the "Well No Wonder" thread, at 10:20 last night when much of the posts were removed from here you were enjoying a bit of levity with the very same people who hijacked and thus had their posts removed from this thread, and you stated:

never mind me, William. Just acting out myself for a moment. Carry on. Feel free to put me on ignore. (actually, the system won't let you....BWAHAHHAAAA!!!)

Thank you for your apology on behalf of the moon. It marks you as an unusually mature, gracious, and responsible board member.

Yeah. Sensitive, me?

If you want to explain to me how I made it clear to you that I was not at all suggesting a change in policy, but that somehow it was determined that I was DEMANDING one, you are welcome to email or message me. I don't want to make anyone else uncomfortable reading the back and forth.

Better yet, just let it go, Mac. I am. There is not much that can be said now that is going to do much to change my opinions. And I am sorry that that is the case.

Issuing apologies

Quixote without a cause

Your Genial Uncle

Absolute sagebrush

She Who Resonates...

'Twas but a dream of thee

wishes you happiness

Walkin' That Road

Quixote without a cause

Quixote without a cause

Shiny!

wishes you happiness

2 WIP? A glutton for punishment

Absolute sagebrush

'Twas but a dream of thee

calm waters ahead

Writer Beware Goddess

Preditors & Editors

Quixote without a cause

Quixote without a cause

'Twas but a dream of thee

Quixote without a cause

Absolute sagebrush

Quixote without a cause