Ending Marijuana Prohibition #1 in Citizen's Briefing Book

Don

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The Citizen's Briefing Book project underway at change.gov ends tomorrow, and the top ideas will be submitted to President Obama.

The current #1 issue is Ending Marijuana Prohibition. The proposal reads:

I suggest that we step back and take a non-biased "Science Based" approach to decide what should be done about the "Utter Failure" that we call the War on (some) Drugs.

The fact is that Marijuana is much less harmful to our bodies than other Legal Drugs such as Tobacco and Alcohol. And for the Government to recognize Marijuana as having Medicinal Properties AND as a Schedule I drug (Has NO medicinal Properties) is an obvious flaw in the system.
We must stop imprisoning responsible adult citizens choosing to use a drug that has been mis-labeled for over 70 years.

Is it time to 'stop imprisoning responsible adult citizens choosing to use a drug that has been mis-labeled for over 70 years?' Will the President respond to the will of the citizens, as expressed in this survey? Will this even make the evening news?
 
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MattW

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I sure hope this does get attention.

Maybe taxing marijuana can pay for a significant part of the trillions of deficit spending ahead.
 

robeiae

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Well look, right now it's illegal. So people that are using it are not fucking RESPONSIBLE ADULTS.

Man, I hate that kind of statement. No offense Don.

People want to see it legalized? I don't much care. But until then, stop smoking it, you stoners!
 

Don

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None taken, Rob. I was quoting the proposal from the site. :)
 

kuwisdelu

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Since when does doing something illegal automatically make someone irresponsible?
 

waylander

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I dispute the contention that Marijuana is much less harmful than other legal drugs.
The connection between extensive marijuana use (particularly the really strong stuff) and schizophrenia is really too strong to ignore.
 

Cranky

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Not to mention all those jaywalkers out there. Criminal mastermind bastards.

Don't forget the people who never return the carts to the corrals.

ETA: On topic, I gotta say, meh. Go for it. Legalize it.
 

kuwisdelu

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I dispute the contention that Marijuana is much less harmful than other legal drugs.
The connection between extensive marijuana use (particularly the really strong stuff) and schizophrenia is really too strong to ignore.

I've never heard of that. Of all the stoners I know (which is...many), the only one with schizophrenia smokes the least by far, and has had it all her life. Are you sure you're not thinking of acid? Too much of that will fuck you up. Do you have some links?
 

robeiae

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Since when does doing something illegal automatically make someone irresponsible?
When it comes to doing something that is done for mere enjoyment/fun/pleasure, it's an automatic, imo. The only caveat I'd allow is when the illegality of an activity is prohibitive for a specific group for reasons beyond their control. Example: people breaking a law prohibiting black people from swimming in a pool would not--imo--be acting irresponsibly. People of the same sex breaking a law by engaging in intimate actions (that people of different sexes could engage in) would not be acting irresponsibly, etc.

But using a drug that is illegal just to get high? Come on. There's nothing even remotely responsible about that kind of behavior.
 

Don

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I dispute the contention that Marijuana is much less harmful than other legal drugs.
The connection between extensive marijuana use (particularly the really strong stuff) and schizophrenia is really too strong to ignore.
None of the voices in my head have suffered any, and any number of people here will tell you that they really are plotting to harm me.

All kidding aside, though, are the billions of dollars in judicial and incarceration expense, the militarization of our police force, and the funds that are being directed to illegal organizations really a worthwhile price to pay to attempt to control a drug that may have an impact on as much as 1% of the population?

Should we continue to pay that price although marijuana use is more pervasive today than it was 35 years ago, when the DEA was founded?

If so, we need to reinstitute alcohol prohibition and outlaw tobacco use. They both have much higher populations at risk.
 

Jerry B. Flory

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They call it a war on drugs yet they frown at me every time I burn down a crackhouse.
How do they expect me to fight a war without weapons?
I don't care if people smoke dope. It grows out of the ground, I have never understood how anyone thought they could regulate it.
I don't see marijuana as a problem except cops still insist on busting people for it for reasons they themselves cannot explain unless they just want the dope for themselves.

It's the other crap the meth, the crack. The garbage drugs. If you're anything like me you think a person who smokes something they cooked up in a bathroom out of cough syrup and toilet bowl cleaner deserves to skip around twitching and jerking sounding like they're talking on the back of truck rolling down a gravel road.
But the idiots try to give it to other people with promises of good times.
This shit doesn't grow from the ground; it's manufactured.
Legalize marijuana, let's all get together, burn a few big fat gooey buds and flamethrower some freaking crackhouses.
 

waylander

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I've never heard of that. Of all the stoners I know (which is...many), the only one with schizophrenia smokes the least by far, and has had it all her life. Are you sure you're not thinking of acid? Too much of that will fuck you up. Do you have some links?


Damn sure I'm not thinking of LSD (though you're quite correct about how that can f#ck you up).

Here's a few links http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html
http://bipolar.about.com/od/relateddisorders/a/schizo_pot.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/113801.php

As a scientific researcher who has worked extensively in the field of molecules that interact with cannabinoid receptors, I can assure you that link is real. Several major pharma companies are advancing cannabinoid receptor antagonists as schizophrenia treatments amongst other things
 
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kuwisdelu

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When it comes to doing something that is done for mere enjoyment/fun/pleasure, it's an automatic, imo. The only caveat I'd allow is when the illegality of an activity is prohibitive for a specific group for reasons beyond their control. Example: people breaking a law prohibiting black people from swimming in a pool would not--imo--be acting irresponsibly. People of the same sex breaking a law by engaging in intimate actions (that people of different sexes could engage in) would not be acting irresponsibly, etc.

But using a drug that is illegal just to get high? Come on. There's nothing even remotely responsible about that kind of behavior.

I would say it depends on how likely you are to get caught and the possible consequences on you and others close to you if you do have to face criminal charges.

Being arrested isn't any kind of be-all, end-all of irresponsibility.

IMO, being a stoner is much more responsible than being an alcoholic.


The disconnect between our sense of morality and the law has always bothered me. For example, those signs that say "Buying cigarettes for minors isn't just wrong--IT'S ILLEGAL." Those signs piss me off to no end, because it's a perfect example of how twisted our sense of morality is. Why should it matter if it's illegal or not if it's wrong? Shouldn't they ought to read ""Buying cigarettes for minors isn't just illegal--it's wrong"?
 

kuwisdelu

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Damn sure I'm not thinking of LSD (though you're quite correct about how that can f#ck you up).

Here's a few links http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html
http://bipolar.about.com/od/relateddisorders/a/schizo_pot.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/113801.php

As a scientific researcher who has worked extensively in the field of molecules that interact with cannabinoid receptors, I can assure you that link is real. Several major pharma companies are advancing cannabinoid receptor antagonists as schizophrenia treatments amongst other things

Interesting. This is the first I've heard of it.

IMO, still not a good argument against its legalization, though. There's plenty of legal stuff that can hurt you with much greater likelihood.
 

robeiae

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I would say it depends on how likely you are to get caught and the possible consequences on you and others close to you if you do have to face criminal charges.
You're joking, right? Responsibility is a function--when it comes to illegal behavior--of your likelihood of being caught?!?



IMO, being a stoner is much more responsible than being an alcoholic.
I'm hard-pressed to see any responsibility in either of these case. Again, using an illegal substance to get high is not responsible behavior. How can it be?

And over-indulging in a legal substance--like alcohol--is not responsible behavior. Why should it be?

Regardless, the alcohol-pot comparisons are meaningless in this regard. And again, I have no problem with pot being legalized. I just find it disingenuous of people that use it for getting high to claim they're behaving "responsibly." They're not, unless after using it, they turn themselves in for breaking the law.

Now, this doesn't make all pot-smokers irresponsible nere-do-wells, across the board. They can certainly be upstanding citizens and persons, apart from this activity. But it is what it is. Using an illegal substance to get high is a tick off the responsibility meter, imo, at the very least. And claiming to be responsible is therefore disingenuous.
 

kuwisdelu

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You're joking, right? Responsibility is a function--when it comes to illegal behavior--of your likelihood of being caught?!?

If the consequences for being caught are what one is worried about--yes. For example, say you're the father of three kids who depend on you for financial support. Doing something you're likely to go to jail for is being irresponsible in this case, because you would be endangering those kids' source of support. Say for Christmas one of those kids wants an album that you can't afford. Illegally downloading that CD for the kid is a lot less risky than trying to steal it from a brick-and-mortar store. Both are equally illegal. But responsibility-wise, the one who downloaded it is being more responsible, because he is still more likely to be around for those kids on Christmas.

Now I wouldn't hold either of those fathers up as examples of pillars of legal responsibility, but ultimately one is being more responsible than the other. I realize the logic may be a bit strange, but it is sound, and I hope that elucidates what I mean.

Regardless, the alcohol-pot comparisons are meaningless in this regard. And again, I have no problem with pot being legalized. I just find it disingenuous of people that use it for getting high to claim they're behaving "responsibly." They're not, unless after using it, they turn themselves in for breaking the law.

Now, this doesn't make all pot-smokers irresponsible nere-do-wells, across the board. They can certainly be upstanding citizens and persons, apart from this activity. But it is what it is. Using an illegal substance to get high is a tick of the responsibility meter, imo, at the very least. And claiming to be responsible is therefore disingenuous.

Again, I have to say it depends on the situation.

If you don't have anyone to look out for but yourself, I fail to see how doing something that doesn't endanger anyone else is irresponsible just because it's illegal. Legality shouldn't be used as a meter for responsibility.
 

Cranky

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Except that, as you just pointed out, engaging in illegal behavior does have negative consequences that impact others. That does, generally speaking, tend to be considered to be "wrong". You're impacting others negatively with your choices.

Shoot, even if you're single, if you have a dope conviction, that's certainly going to have an impact on your life, and not a positive one, either.
 

kuwisdelu

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Shoot, even if you're single, if you have a dope conviction, that's certainly going to have an impact on your life, and not a positive one, either.

Well, yes, but I think responsibility when it comes to oneself is completely up to you. For example, using that logic, suicide is the epitome of irresponsibility, when I don't think that's true.

I suppose it comes down to how one defines "responsible" for themselves.


Interestingly, all of these lines of logic can lead to the conclusion that dealing drugs can be much more responsible than using them.
 

robeiae

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If you don't have anyone to look out for but yourself, I fail to see how doing something that doesn't endanger anyone else is irresponsible just because it's illegal. Legality shouldn't be used as a meter for responsibility.
It's not a meter, it's a basis.

You're engaging in a wholly unnecessary activity that is illegal. And why? To get high. Irresponsible.

If you've got a problem with the law, you can work to change it. That doesn't mean you're free to break it, however. So, you're putting yourself at risk in this regard. And why? To. Get. High. Irresponsible.

It blows my mind (and look, no drugs!) that people need this so badly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not addictive...

But come on! I've been stoned. I've been drunk. I've been lots of other things. But I don't need any of it.
 

Jerry B. Flory

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Legality is a scale of common sense.
Deciding which laws are sound and plausible and which ones are just paper fences for the advantages of third parties is part of individualism.
When you're told and told about rules and you watch the so-called pillars of society break laws at whim, it's a little hard to take any laws seriously.
I'm not one to sit and subject myself to rules everyone else ignores. Why would I, to be responsible?
When a corporation continually breaks a law because the money they make from breaking it exceeds the fines they have to pay, all bets and gloves are off. When they buy a government so they can make their own laws all bets and gloves are off.

What a man can do and what a man can't do."
 

robeiae

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Legality is a scale of common sense.
Deciding which laws are sound and plausible and which ones are just paper fences for the advantages of third parties is part of individualism.
When you're told and told about rules and you watch the so-called pillars of society break laws at whim, it's a little hard to take any laws seriously.
I'm not one to sit and subject myself to rules everyone else ignores. Why would I, to be responsible?
When a corporation continually breaks a law because the money they make from breaking it exceeds the fines they have to pay, all bets and gloves are off. When they buy a government so they can make their own laws all bets and gloves are off.
You're free to live that way, of course.

Me, I've got no problem following most laws. Even the ones I disagree with in the moment (and those are ones that I try to get changed).

But regardless, breaking laws because YOU don't see the sense in them is not a part of individualism. That's crap. It may be a part of narcissism, however.
 

Cranky

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Well, yes, but I think responsibility when it comes to oneself is completely up to you. For example, using that logic, suicide is the epitome of irresponsibility, when I don't think that's true.

I suppose it comes down to how one defines "responsible" for themselves.


Interestingly, all of these lines of logic can lead to the conclusion that dealing drugs can be much more responsible than using them.

Except that people don't (by and large) live in a bubble. *shrug*

I think it's irresponsible to break the law, period. Doing so can have severe, long-lasting consequences. You can seriously f*ck up your life for one joint...how is that responsible behavior?
 

kuwisdelu

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It's not a meter, it's a basis.

You're engaging in a wholly unnecessary activity that is illegal. And why? To get high. Irresponsible.

If you've got a problem with the law, you can work to change it. That doesn't mean you're free to break it, however. So, you're putting yourself at risk in this regard. And why? To. Get. High. Irresponsible.

I disagree. Legality doesn't necessarily have anything to do with responsibility. Ideally, yes that would be true. But we don't live in an ideal world. As mentioned above, by that logic, jaywalking is irresponsible.

It blows my mind (and look, no drugs!) that people need this so badly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not addictive...

But come on! I've been stoned. I've been drunk. I've been lots of other things. But I don't need any of it.

To be honest, it blows my mind, too. I don't understand it either.
 

Don

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You're free to live that way, of course.

Me, I've got no problem following most laws. Even the ones I disagree with in the moment (and those are ones that I try to get changed).

But regardless, breaking laws because YOU don't see the sense in them is not a part of individualism. That's crap. It may be a part of narcissism, however.
Given the direction this thread's taken, I decided to haul out one of my favorite Heinlein quotes and dust it off.
Robert A. Heinlein said:
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.