Christian Unity

Guffy · Jan 24, 2009

I would like to start a discussion about Christian unity. I have been thinking and researching this for about 3 years. To start I would like to explain that for thirty years I have belonged to a denomination that tries to maintain that they are not a denomination. We believe that we have restored the 1st century church. Unfortunately when ever differences in interpretation of the Bible occur it can lead to ugly arguments and even splits. This is only tolerable to me because for one, it is usually rare, and two each congregation of this group is completely autonomous with their own leadership. (What one congregation does has no effect on any other congregation.)

It is clear that God allows his people to make our own decision, as when the children of Israel ask Samuel to appoint a King to rule over them in 1st Samuel chapter 8. God was displeased, and told them that there would be consequences, but He allowed it. In the same way I believe that God has allowed us to splinter his church. Not what He wanted, yet He was still able to make something good come from our bad decisions, the way David was able to became a great King of the same people who had rejected God’s rule in asking for a king.

I believe that in what some sociologist are calling The Post Modern Generation the divisiveness of the Christian community is supporting the erroneous belief that there are multiple truths and multiple ways to reach God.

So my question is--what it would take for Christian denominations to fulfill the wishes of Jesus and be united as one, as he prayed in John 17:20

John 17:20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Mumut · Jan 24, 2009

I'm and agnostic and I support the erroneous belief that there are multiple truths and multiple ways to reach God (or whatever). To me the fact that a huge number of people are living good (but different) lives in order to fulfil the needs of their religion is wonderful. I support the peacemakers.

Guffy · Jan 24, 2009

I don't mean to be contentious. I too support peacemakers and don't mean to criticize anyone living a good life. Human goodness is not exclusive to Christianity, and in fact at times there are some Christians who are very poor examples of goodness. But a follower of Jesus must listen to what Jesus said and who he is.

In the gospel of John 14:6 Jesus answered "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

This does not mean that only people who believe in Jesus are good. As you say there are huge numbers of people who live good lives, and contribute to the good of others and to their societies in very positive and helpful ways. I have no intention of passing judgment on them or anyone. The issue is not human goodness. Many people have been taught that being good is the key to going to heaven but that is not Biblical teaching. Being good is not the way into Jesus' kingdom.

There are also huge numbers of people who feel that there are a number of belief systems worthy of following that would give a person a better life in this world and a place in the after life. And I have no extra revelation that I believe makes my faith any stronger or more likely to be true than theirs. I have chosen Jesus because I have accepted his claim of being the son of God and in fact God himself. It is also not my intention to criticize anyone who has chosen a different belief. I believe in a fair and just God and pray that he accepts all his children. For me however, if I have an understanding of what I think Jesus wants from me and fail to do my best to follow it, what do I say to him on the last day?

My question is really addressed those of us who put our faith in Jesus as the one who will save us. What would it take for us to present a united front to the world so that they would know Him by our love for one another? And would this united front be able to over come the belief that any of the worlds faiths is acceptable.

III · Jan 26, 2009

Unfortunately I don't think we'll see a truly united church until Christ physically reigns. Even in the early church there were factions (some saying "I follow Paul" others saying "I follow Apollos") to which Paul replied we all follow Christ, who is the head of the church.

I do think the church is following society's lead in becoming more tolerant of diversity (which I personally think is mostly a good thing). I also think if we could dwell on and live by 1 Cor 13, we'd get through 90% of issues which divide us. It's all about genuinely loving our brothers, neighbors, and enemies as we're transformed by Christ living in us.

Guffy · Jan 26, 2009

I agree that 1 Cor 13 would be a big help. I have been a part of a group that had trouble with this, it's hard. Like The Israelites with their king I believe God can make our current situation work, I just wish it didn't seem like we were where at time enemies instead of brothers. I believe our apparent splintering is a deterrent to spreading the gospel of Jesus.

Sean D. Schaffer · Jan 27, 2009

Guffy said:
I would like to start a discussion about Christian unity. I have been thinking and researching this for about 3 years. To start I would like to explain that for thirty years I have belonged to a denomination that tries to maintain that they are not a denomination. We believe that we have restored the 1st century church. Unfortunately when ever differences in interpretation of the Bible occur it can lead to ugly arguments and even splits. This is only tolerable to me because for one, it is usually rare, and two each congregation of this group is completely autonomous with their own leadership. (What one congregation does has no effect on any other congregation.)

...Snipped.

Guffy, I see what you're saying in that Christians should be unified. But I don't see what you're saying in that all Christians should belong to the same denomination. Different people see the Bible in different ways. Disagreeing with you does not make them wrong, just different. An old friend of mine, a Baptist preacher who believed in his heart that his denomination was right and others were wrong, nevertheless was willing to "Agree to disagree." In his heart, anyone who followed Christ in a manner unlike his belief was wrong, and he would state that belief emphatically. Nevertheless, he knew the value of being united in Christ was greater than the value of being united in denomination.

Christian unity, I think, ought to be defined by the love of Christ Himself, NOT by the kind of church a person goes to. If a person loves the Lord, then they're part of "the church," regardless of what denomination they belong to.

There is no right or wrong denomination, only a right or wrong attitude toward the Savior.

ETA: That's what I think about Christian Unity. I hope this post helps you out a bit, and I pray the Lord will bless you.

III · Jan 28, 2009

It's probably worth noting what Paul wrote to the Ephesians about unity.

Ephesians 4

1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men." 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Guffy · Jan 28, 2009

I guess that it is this idea of right and wrong denominations that I am trying to address. Almost from the beginning of Christianity, it seems, once in power Christians not only persecuted non-christian they also persecuted Christians who did things differently. Both of these ideas go against everything taught in the Bible. Even today, though we do no actual fighting, I have seen different churches on the same street refuse to have anything to do with one another because they have different ideas of how we ought to worship on Sunday morning. Many churches and congregations have service projects that seek to help to poor in their neighborhoods but most of the time the problems are much greater than the churches resources can handle. Collaboration among our churches greatly enhance our effectiveness as well as our influence. But it often seems that our differences are greater than what we have in common.

So to modify the original question a little, what would take for Christians to be able to over come our differences and accept what we have in common? Not necessarily do away with our denominations but at least stop fighting and criticizing one another, and be able to work together to accomplish some of the things that Jesus wanted us to do while here on this Earth? i.e. Love everybody and take care of the less fortunate.

Guffy · Jan 28, 2009

III, I was busy writing my last response when you posted your last one. I love this passage. When we had the trouble I talked about in one of my earlier posts this was what I began teaching in our Bible class.

citymouse · Jan 28, 2009

Guffy, your post #8 on Unity reminded me of a friend who is a newly ordained Methodist minister. He and his wife just left for Peru to as, he put it, preach the gospel to the Catholics there. He cited the gains in converts to denominations like the Jehovah's Witnesses as a good filed to plow.

So I asked him why not go to Indonesia and preach to the Buddhists, Muslims, or any of the Eastern Spirit religions? He said it would be easier to convert Catholics since they were half way there already. Of course this kind of cynicism does nothing for Unity.

I believe it will take a divine hand to set this mess to right.

Pax et Bonum
C

Sean D. Schaffer · Jan 28, 2009

Guffy said:
Snipped...

So to modify the original question a little, what would take for Christians to be able to over come our differences and accept what we have in common? Not necessarily do away with our denominations but at least stop fighting and criticizing one another, and be able to work together to accomplish some of the things that Jesus wanted us to do while here on this Earth? i.e. Love everybody and take care of the less fortunate.

Ah, I see what you're saying now. My mistake for not having seen your point the first time.

Personally, I don't think we will see the kind of unity you're talking about until one of two things happens: 1) the second coming of Christ, or 2) widespread persecution of the church as a whole. As the Lord could come back tomorrow, or He could come back a thousand years from now, I would say that the second thing mentioned -- a highly unpleasant motivator, but a motivator nonetheless -- is really the only thing that Humanity can achieve that will give us the first-century church's attitude. I know it's not something people want to hear, but when you look in the Bible at how the church grew, the greatest growth both in size and in spiritual health came with persecution. Churches just don't have that, at least not in the Western World, and I dare say that's part of the reason so many churches in the Western World have stagnated.

I wish I could be more positive on this, but to be honest I can't think of a more positive way to get to what you're talking about. At the same time, maybe that's exactly what the church needs: a 2x4 up alongside the head can gain someone's attention far more effectively than words can.

:Shrug:

Ralyks · Jan 28, 2009

I think maybe our definition of "unity" is the problem. Many people act as though to be "unified," we must all worship the same way, in the same denomination, and with the same specific doctrines. But it is possible to have unity of purpose without unity of expression. I don't have a problem with the proliferation of denominations as such. Different spirits are moved in different ways, and most of our doctrines, outside of the core creedal ones, aren't really all that essential to Christianity and don't really affect the way the average Christian lives. Most Christians don't know, or, if they do know, fully understand the distinct doctrines of their denominations anyway. What is problematic is not the many denominations themselves, but the constant condemnation that passes between them of one another. Obtaining unity would be easier if we all just paid a little more attention to Luke 9:49-50:

"John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."

We are never going to agree on every little doctrine. We are never going to all want to worship in the same style. But if we could just agree to LISTEN to Christ and stop "forbading" those who "followth not with us," if we could just believe that "he that is not against us is for us," and go about OUR business without wasting our time trying to stop THEIR business, then we wouldn't seem so devisive to the world.

In so many ways, we Christians have moved away from the philosophical perspective of Christ's Judaism to the perspective of Greek philosophy, and this has caused us to focus excessively on "right belief" as being considerably more important than "right action."

Guffy · Jan 28, 2009

What we base our unity on is vital. Paul was insisting that the Corinthians stay united even though they held different ideas and had different levels of maturity. Most people, including me, have some difficulty being comfortable with someone who is different.

johnnysannie · Jan 31, 2009

There won't be unity among all Christians regardless of denomination until there is no division. And there will continue to be division as long as well-meaning people of other denominations find it necessary to leave cheesy tracts on my car, put them in my childrens' lockers at school, and tell me that I am hell bound because I don't go to their particular flavor of church.

ColoradoGuy · Jan 31, 2009

I suppose it comes down to whether one is a lumper or a splitter -- whether one primarily sees those things we share or those things we do not share. As a Quaker I belong to what is on one level an extraordinarily chaotic group. Over the past centuries this has led to major organizational schisms. But still we focus on One Big Thing -- that of God in everyone. So we're lumpers. So in the famous formulation of Isaiah Berlin, Quakers are hedgehogs, rather than foxes.

Roger J Carlson · Feb 2, 2009

johnnysannie said:
There won't be unity among all Christians regardless of denomination until there is no division. And there will continue to be division as long as well-meaning people of other denominations find it necessary to leave cheesy tracts on my car, put them in my childrens' lockers at school, and tell me that I am hell bound because I don't go to their particular flavor of church.

Let's keep the discussion positive, shall we?

Pat~ · Feb 2, 2009

Guffy said:
So to modify the original question a little, what would it take for Christians to be able to over come our differences and accept what we have in common? Not necessarily do away with our denominations but at least stop fighting and criticizing one another, and be able to work together to accomplish some of the things that Jesus wanted us to do while here on this Earth? i.e. Love everybody and take care of the less fortunate.

I like III's Ephesians 4 passage cited above, and to narrow it down to its utter simplicity, this part from verse 2, in answer to your question:

"Be completely humble." (Emphasis added.)

Guffy · Feb 2, 2009

I've never heard the terms lumper or splitter before but I've known people from both camps. I'm uncomfortable with both. On the one hand I want Christians to uphold the teachings of Jesus, to remain true to the spirit of Christianity (as I see it) and to do things correctly (again as I see correctly). On the other hand how can I exclude people when Jesus himself was so open to all kinds of people coming to him. He excluded no one from his fellowship, so on what principle can I base my exclusions. How many of the tenants (and I speak only for myself) that I hold so dear do I try to make others conform to.

When Paul was trying to teach the Corinthians about unity he talked to them about, among other things, eating meat sacrificed to Idols. I don't think until recently that I ever considered how big a deal this might have been for the early church. What a huge issue to just say well if someone is OK with it let him eat and if you don't want to then don't. I've known splitters that get agitated over whether there is a projector in the building. Early splitters use to argue over whether it was scriptural to use microphones. How much of a difference in worship styles for instance can I live with?

I guess it all comes down to humility. Jesus was big on humility but as you can see from my early comments I may get a lot of things right (and I may not) when it comes to my Christianity but I just might be missing the big one.

Jesus said that we should Love the Lord our God with all our hearts, strength and mind, and that we should love our neighbor as ourselves. Then he said all the Law and the prophets hand on these two. That is over 500 do's and 600 don'ts in the Pentateuch alone handing on two principles.

And so with one more modification to my original question, would a commitment to these two commands help us to over come our differences and accept what we have in common?

Pat~ · Feb 2, 2009

ColoradoGuy said:
I suppose it comes down to whether one is a lumper or a splitter -- whether one primarily sees those things we share or those things we do not share. As a Quaker I belong to what is on one level an extraordinarily chaotic group. Over the past centuries this has led to major organizational schisms. But still we focus on One Big Thing -- that of God in everyone. So we're lumpers. So in the famous formulation of Isaiah Berlin, Quakers are hedgehogs, rather than foxes.

Interesting page, Chris!

I think I'm the ADD fox who's been called to the hedgehog life:

"For me to live is Christ..." (Philippians 1:21).

(To the degree that I'm ADD, we're still working out the particulars on that.

)

Greenify13 · Feb 2, 2009

From my experience (which is quite diverse) I believe that people are afraid to be viewed as the same as other denominations. Diversity makes one stand out, and people want to be 'right'. However I have visited with many church-types:
Quacker, Lutheran, Catholic, Mormon(LDS), Baptist (all variations), Presbytarian, Protestant, Pentecostal, Evangelical........
Through my visits I have recognized similarities and diversities, but similarities are the most important. Almost all believe in the Ten Commandents, though they react to it differently. They ALL believe in GOD, though they react differently to how he should be represented and they all want to believe in the justice and righteousness of God. But they have different views on how to be forgived. I believe that church should be likened to a classroom. I believe people hold to much faith in those standing before them preaching. Now, I don't want this to come off as I don't trust pastors/priests/preachers/teachers.... I simply mean that there should be understanding that you should also personally seek him out as well. While they may speak what they know there is much that all do not know or understand, we need to realize this and be flexible in our beliefs of how much we know or will learn....
Psalm 118:8
It is better to take refuge in the LORD,
Than to trust in man.

Pat~ · Feb 2, 2009

Guffy said:
And so with one more modification to my original question, would a commitment to these two commands help us to over come our differences and accept what we have in common?

A commitment to those two would effect the complete transformation that God intends in our lives, Christian unity being but one aspect of that. A commitment to those two commandments lands us in the Promised Land, with all the inheritance God longs to give His children.

Christian Unity

Guffy

still writing

Mumut

Well begun is half done...

Guffy

still writing

III

rockin the suburbs

Guffy

still writing

Sean D. Schaffer

III

rockin the suburbs

Guffy

still writing

Guffy

still writing

citymouse

fantasy dweller

Sean D. Schaffer

Ralyks

Untold stories inside

Guffy

still writing

johnnysannie

ColoradoGuy

I've seen worse.

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.

Guffy

still writing

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.

Greenify13

Fair Maiden of War.

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.