Lets Make America Socialist Debate

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Captshady

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I got this in an email today, and thought it'd be a good jumping off point of debate for those here that have admitted to be socialist. I admit to being capitalist, but I'm not an economics major either. I'll do my best to be open minded, educate me:

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation.

You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."
~~~~~ The late Dr. Adrian Rogers
[/FONT]








[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 9:19 AM
> To All My Valued Employees,
>
> There have been some rumblings around the office about the future of this company, and more specifically, your job. As you know, the economy has changed for the worse and presents many challenges. However, the good news is this: The economy doesn't pose a threat to your job. What does threaten your job however, is the changing political landscape in this country. However, let me tell you some little tidbits of fact which might help you decide what is in your best interests.
>
> First, while it is easy to spew rhetoric that casts employers against employees, you have to understand that for every business owner there is a Back Story. This back story is often neglected and overshadowed by what you see and hear. Sure, you see me park my Mercedes outside. You've seen my big home at last years Christmas party. I'm sure; all these flashy icons of luxury conjure up some idealized thoughts about my life.
>
> However, what you don't see is the BACK STORY:
>
> I started this company 28 years ago. At that time, I live in a 300 square foot studio apartment for 3 years. My entire living apartment was converted into an office so I could put forth 100% effort into building a company, which by the way, would eventually employ you.
>
> My diet consisted of Ramen Pride noodles because every dollar I spent went back into this company. I drove a rusty Toyota Corolla with a defective transmission. I didn't have time to date. Often times, I stayed home on weekends, while my friends went out drinking and partying. In fact, I was married to my business -- hard work, discipline, and sacrifice.
>
> Meanwhile, my friends got jobs. They worked 40 hours a week and made a modest $50K a year and spent every dime they earned. They drove flashy cars and lived in expensive homes and wore fancy designer clothes. Instead of hitting the Nordstrom's for the latest hot fashion item, I was trolling through the discount store extracting any clothing item that didn't look like it was birthed in the 70's. My friends refinanced their mortgages and lived a life of luxury. I, however, did not. I put my time, my money, and my life into a business with a vision that eventually, some day, I too, will be able to afford these luxuries my friends supposedly had.
>
> So, while you physically arrive at the office at 9am, mentally check in at about noon, and then leave at 5pm, I don't. There is no "off" button for me. When you leave the office, you are done and you have a weekend all to yourself. I unfortunately do not have the freedom. I eat, and breathe this company every minute of the day. There is no rest. There is no weekend. There is no happy hour.
> Every day this business is attached to my hip like a 1 year old special-needs child. You, of course, only see the fruits of that garden -- the nice house, the Mercedes, the vacations... you never realize the Back Story and the sacrifices I've made.
>
> Now, the economy is falling apart and I, the guy that made all the right decisions and saved his money, have to bail-out all the people who didn't. The people that overspent their paychecks suddenly feel entitled to the same luxuries that I earned and sacrificed a decade of my life for. Yes, business ownership has is benefits but the price I've paid is steep and not without wounds.
>
> Unfortunately, the cost of running this business, and employing you, is starting to eclipse the threshold of marginal benefit and let me tell you why: I am being taxed to death and the government thinks I don't pay enough. I have state taxes. Federal taxes. Property taxes. Sales and use taxes. Payroll taxes. Workers compensation taxes. Unemployment taxes. Taxes on taxes. I have to hire a tax man to manage all these taxes and then guess what? I have to pay taxes for employing him. Government mandates and regulations and all the accounting that goes with it, now occupy most of my time. On Oct 15th, I wrote a check to the US Treasury for 288,000 for quarterly taxes. You know what my "stimulus" check was? Zero.. Nada. Zilch.
>
> The question I have is this: Who is stimulating the economy? Me, the guy who has provided 14 people good paying jobs and serves over 2,200,000 people per year with a flourishing business? Or, the single mother sitting at home pregnant with her fourth child waiting for her next welfare check? Obviously, government feels the latter is the economic stimulus of this country.
>
> The fact is, if I deducted (Read: Stole) 50% of your paycheck you'd quit and you wouldn't work here. I mean, why should you? That's nuts. Who wants to get rewarded only 50% of their hard work? Well, I agree which is why your job is in jeopardy.
>
> Here is what many of you don't understand ... to stimulate the economy you need to stimulate what runs the economy. Had suddenly government mandated to me that I didn't need to pay taxes, guess what? Instead of depositing that $288,000 into the Washington black-hole, I would have spent it, hired more employees, and generated substantial economic growth. My employees would have enjoyed the wealth of that tax cut in the form of promotions and better salaries. But you can forget it now.
>
> When you have a comatose man on the verge of death, you don't defibrillate and shock his thumb thinking that will bring him back to life, do you? Or, do you defibrillate his heart? Business is at the heart of America and always has been. To restart it, you must stimulate it, not kill it. Suddenly, the power brokers in Washington believe the poor of America are the essential drivers of the American economic engine. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is the type of change you can keep.
>
> So where am I going with all this? It's quite simple. If any new taxes are levied on me, or my company, my reaction will be swift and simple. I'll fire you. I'll fire your co-workers. You can then plead with the government to pay for your mortgage, your SUV, and your child's future. Frankly, it isn't my problem any more.
>
> Then, I will close this company down, move to another country, and retire. You see, I'm done. I'm done with a country that penalizes the productive and gives to the unproductive. My motivation to work and to provide jobs will be destroyed, and with it, will be my citizenship.
>
> So, if you lose your job, it won't be at the hands of the economy; it will be at the hands of a political hurricane that swept through this country, steamrolled the constitution, and will have changed its landscape forever. If that happens, you can find me sitting on a beach, retired, and with no employees to worry about....
>
> Signed, THE BOSS
[/FONT]
 

nevada

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you want to use an email-forwarded, urban-myth-sounding scare-mongering along the lines of obama-is-a-muslim, stereotype-perpetuating piece of propagandist crap to stimulate intelectual debate about socialism? Seriously?

You don't actually believe this is a real letter do you? Please tell me you don't.
 

Captshady

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No, it's pure fiction, I've no doubt of that. But it definitely echoes my opinions of how our economy works.
 

nevada

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then you need to do some research and learn how the economy works not from people with clear political agendas but from, oh i don't know, economists?
 

rugcat

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I ran a (family owned) small business for years. (60-80 employees). The role of small businesses in the economy is a good one for discussion, but using a clueless political talking points diatribe as a jumping off place is something I'm simply not interested in.
 

Captshady

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you want to use an email-forwarded, urban-myth-sounding scare-mongering along the lines of obama-is-a-muslim, stereotype-perpetuating piece of propagandist crap to stimulate intelectual debate about socialism? Seriously?

You don't actually believe this is a real letter do you? Please tell me you don't.


Where's the scare-mongering? I see economic opinion, represented in a fictional business owner. I honestly don't see anything close to that of an "Obama Is A Muslim" tactic. I've met boat loads of people that have the exact opinion this "person" has expressed. I'm just asking that the thread discuss these, and prove/disprove them.

I'm assuming you take exception to the opinion that with an increase in socialized programs, that others will find ways to scam the system and avoid work?

Or that if wealthy people get over taxed that they'll stop producing as much?

Where's the falsehoods?
 

Captshady

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Noah Body

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then you need to do some research and learn how the economy works not from people with clear political agendas but from, oh i don't know, economists?

Economists are great for telling the history of something, but not so hot at explaining why something is happening as it's going down. Here at the Fed, we have an army of economists, and most of them will confess to having no clue.
 

James81

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I ran a (family owned) small business for years. (60-80 employees). The role of small businesses in the economy is a good one for discussion, but using a clueless political talking points diatribe as a jumping off place is something I'm simply not interested in.

I've always loved the Republicans idea that small businesses are what helps the economy grow. I even bought into it for a while, until I got to really thinking about it. Now I'm not so sure. It works well in theory, but the reality is that it probably doesn't work as well as they think it does.

I agree with them on one point: you shouldn't RAISE taxes on small businesses unless you absolutely have to. I agree that raising taxes can have a NEGATIVE affect on the economy. What I don't believe is that by cutting taxes on small businesses that it has a positive affect.

I believe that cutting taxes on small business has a positive affect on small business owners ONLY with minimal positive affects on the economy based off that.

Why do I believe that? Because if you cut taxes, there's no garauntee that those small businesses are going to pass those tax breaks onto their employees, there's no garauntee that they are going to use the money for anything. In fact, I would wager that a lot of small business owners pretty much just pocket the money.

So, no, I don't believe that cutting taxes on small businesses alone will do the job, and the evidence of that is in the last few years.

Personally, I kind of wish that somebody would wake up and realize that these aren't polar issues. That if you take a little of the Democratic knowledge and mix it with a little of the Republican knowledge, you would probably have a much stronger economy overall in the long run.

If you take the Democratic belief that tax breaks on the middle class in conjunction with a balanced budget and then you mix it with the Republican belief that keeping taxes on small businesses low, I think you would see a powerhouse idea that could really work.

If they need ways to raise taxes, then they should tax the upper one percent...the large corporations who aren't going to be rocked by tax hikes, and you stop giving refunds to the people who get refunds (don't raise their taxes throughout the year, just stop paying them refunds), you'd get all the revenue you'll ever need.
 

Diana Hignutt

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It would be neat if there was a true capitalism some where in the world to talk about, but there isn't. The free market hasn't ever really existed. In the West, we have major monopolistic and oliogopolistic influences, in addition to the mind-altering media tricks that advertising uses. Our biggest companies run our government. Small business doesn't have anyone on its side. Capitalism was a fun idea, but it couldn't compete with corporations with nations in their pockets (ala the Dutch East India Trading Co.).

And yeah, I've got a degree in Economics and I run a couple of small companies.
 

Plot Device

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Captshady

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It would be neat if there was a true capitalism some where in the world to talk about, but there isn't. The free market hasn't ever really existed. In the West, we have major monopolistic and oliogopolistic influences, in addition to the mind-altering media tricks that advertising uses. Our biggest companies run our government. Small business doesn't have anyone on its side. Capitalism was a fun idea, but it couldn't compete with corporations with nations in their pockets (ala the Dutch East India Trading Co.).

And yeah, I've got a degree in Economics and I run a couple of small companies.

So the only other alternative is giving business control over to the government? Total wealth redistribution?

No one is opposed to social programs, just to the extent that they're distributing, and where the money is coming from.

I fully expect some to say "yeah, he deserves his money, but his children shouldn't be allowed to have a dime of it"
 

Diana Hignutt

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So the only other alternative is giving business control over to the government? Total wealth redistribution?

No one is opposed to social programs, just to the extent that they're distributing, and where the money is coming from.

I fully expect some to say "yeah, he deserves his money, but his children shouldn't be allowed to have a dime of it"

Never said that. I'm not a Socialist. The answer, as always, is hidden in the middle somewhere.
 

willietheshakes

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So the only other alternative is giving business control over to the government? Total wealth redistribution?

No one is opposed to social programs, just to the extent that they're distributing, and where the money is coming from.

Methinks you might be a little unclear on what socialism actually MEANS.
 

blacbird

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I've always loved the Republicans idea that small businesses are what helps the economy grow. I even bought into it for a while, until I got to really thinking about it. Now I'm not so sure. It works well in theory, but the reality is that it probably doesn't work as well as they think it does.

Especially since, beginning with the Reagan Presidency, the central interest of the Republican Party has been BIG business, not small business. The BIGGER the BETTER!

Nothing is so inimical to the interest of the small entrepreneur as is the immense multinational corporation, beholding almost to nobody but itself and having the inertial momentum to crush anybody perceived of as getting in the way. Think WalMart, Microsoft, ExxonMobil.

caw
 

Plot Device

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Especially since, beginning with the Reagan Presidency, the central interest of the Republican Party has been BIG business, not small business. The BIGGER the BETTER!

Nothing is so inimical to the interest of the small entrepreneur as is the immense multinational corporation, beholding almost to nobody but itself and having the inertial momentum to crush anybody perceived of as getting in the way. Think WalMart, Microsoft, ExxonMobil.

caw


bill-gates-borg.gif
 

willietheshakes

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Enlighten me.

Well, broad strokes: the first point that you made, about total wealth redistribution? That's communism.

Your second point, about social programs? THAT'S socialism.

Yes, the creeping red menace, a fixture on American shores for, what, 70 years now?
 

Captshady

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As opposed to . . . you?

caw

Where, oh mighty blacbird have I even BEGUN an insult here. I asked for debate and discussion, and you opt to be an asshole, why is that? WTF did I do to you? You're an awesome keyboard bad ass, y'know that?

To address your rude as hell post, please show where I made ANY claim that I didn't.
 
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