Swords and Short-Circuiting

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I've been spending a lot of my extra moments letting a story I finished awhile ago ferment in my mind. The original draft is full of holes and some odd plot devices and some noobish writing. I'm working on improveing the plot currently. So, my first question has to do with swords--and arms. What's the range of possible injuries that a sword could inflict on an arm. I'm more concerned with the minimum. I want the character to keep his arm, as much as I would enjoy a one-armed protagonist...:D

So, the scenario: There's a sort of battle(read: slaughter). Protagonist winds up in the middle. Out of desperation, he blocks a sword-swing with his arm. What are the best and worst outcomes for this situation? Is the arm likely to be hack off? Will he have borken bones and severe infection from the wound(if not treated)? Will his arm dangle by a shred of flesh? Anyone good with sword-made injuries?


PS: If the answer is that my character can somehow keep his arm, there are more questions to follow.
 

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What's he wearing, any kind of armor? Or maybe he could grab up some debris from the ground to block with? If the sword is being used for stabbing instead of slicing that would tend to do the least injury.
 

2old2pb

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Best case senario is he's hit with the flat of the sword, then it's just the mass of the sword doing the injury. Great two handed sword, broken arm at least. Rapier, possible broken sword.
 
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No armor. Just cloth. Probably not the flat, though I guess I could change that if it's the only way to get the most of what I want out of the situation. I'm hoping for something serious. Definitely something that would preclude any use of weapons in the near future. Preferably something that could get infected. That likely means broken skin, which would be easiest with the sharp part of the sword. The point would be fine, too; anything that might kill someone if not deflected. I can guestimate the sort of thing a sword edge might do to an unprotected arm, but I don't think I know enough to know what I can get away with. I'm thinking one-handed edged sword. Pre-Renaissance in earth history, most likely. Much as I love rapiers, plate is still going strong in this world.
 
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MagicMan

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Wow, we really need more info to answer that.

1) His armour is ____________.
2) The attacker's sword type is ____________.
3) His dexterity is ____________.
4) What type of stroke is approaching? A slash, an overhead bash, a thrust, etc.

A very dextrous person with chain mail arms, could deflect a blow from a common broadsword coming down on him. If it is a slash, he will get a pretty nasty gash, if not completely severed. A two handed sword, any angle would do severe damage. A kryss, rapier, foil, etc. (any smaller blade) would cause some damage or be defelected.

Another factor is proximity. If he closes with the attacker he can reduce the force of the blow. If he is further away, he could dodge out of range. Worst case is to be hit by the mid point to tip of the blade. Closer to the tip, the higher the damage. (This is on a swung sword, not a thrust.)

Hope this helps
Smiles
Bob

You answered while I was typing. LOL.

No armour is big time hurt, but leaves him more dextrous alowing him the ability to close with the attacker and get hit close to the hilt. It would tear the skin but not severe if he did that. Any other move, the arm would afford little or no protection to the body.

PS: Against an experience warrior, he would be dead fast.
 
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Thomas_Anderson

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From what I've read, bone is very hard to cut through with a sword. A lot harder than 300 makes it look anyway. You could probably make it plausible for him to keep his arm, though make sure you include in your description the amount of pain he experienced. He'd get a nasty gash, and the bone would get fractured a little. It'd hurt like hell for weeks, but he'd keep it. Also, he's gonna need something to stop the bleeding.
 

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At the 2nd battle of Rhodes, the commander of the Knights Hospitallers took an arrow through the eye.

Through the friggin eye.

He lived, lost the eye, and continued the fight.

That's so bad-ass.
 

Fenika

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This should be in story research, where many swordsmen and women hang out.

Also in SR is a thread by thethinker about arm/hand injuries with details on nerve damage that will really help you with one possible outcome. Search nerve and hand in that forum and it should come up.
 

zornhau

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Defensive wounds are amputations

So, the scenario: There's a sort of battle(read: slaughter). Protagonist winds up in the middle. Out of desperation, he blocks a sword-swing with his arm.

If you mean a block where he interposes his unarmoured arm between his body and an incoming sword, then he loses his arm, and still gets a blade in the head/neck/torso.

The possible exception would be if the sword were blunt due to use, and he had cloth wrapped around his arm. Depending on the level of padding, he ends up with a shattered to bruised arm.

If he is trained, it is possible that he might deflect/slap away the sword, possibly using a cloak wrapped around his arm. It might not quite go to plan, and he'd get injured.

Are you looking for just "disabled", or do you also want "left for dead"? How much agency do you want him to have? How trained is he? Are there any improvised weapons to hand?
 

Nivarion

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from what i know cutting bone is very hard, it is stronger than steel. when I was in Tai Quan Do, we would break 2x4s over each others arms and got little more than bruises, and never had broken bones. doesn't mean it didn't hurt like hell but...

the best block he could make would be to activly strike the blade with his fore arm and his elbow bent at 90 degrees. it would change the direction of the blade and leave him with a small cut in the arm.

the worst he could make would be to throw his arm up with his elbow pointed up. the strike could cut into his ulma at an angle, causing his bone to splinter, or it could hit him in the humerous cutting the nerves to his fore arm and/or cutting the tendons that move the arm at the elbow.

have you hit you funny bone, thats the nerve that could get cut, the whole part of your arm that tingles when you hit it would lose its ability if it was cut. and it would hurt like a thousand times more than having your funny bone hit.

and this is from helping my mom with her homework (she is learning to be a doctor)

depending on the part of the arm he blocks with he can have an almost un injuring cut on the fore arm that nicks the radius and ulma, to a crippling cut through the tendons at the elbow.

he could also suffer nerve damage if it cuts him into the upper arm to the bone he could have nerve dammage. it could do any range of damage, from causing numbness and a limited use of the hand, cronic pain, all the way to complete loss of use in the rest of the arm. the upper arm is inervated in the shoulder so it is a bit more difficult to cripple it.

if you were to have him hit the the shoulder (can't remember the latin term) girdle though (shoulder blade and collar bone) he could suffer a preatty crippling loss of that arm. the structure that makes the shoulder is by far the weakest in the whole body, and one of the hardest to set. it is still unlikely that his arm could be cut off with a strike here, unless they got him there twice.
 

Sarpedon

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Bones are NOT stronger than steel. Bonesaws are made of steel.

Swords are sharp, but not razor sharp. The cutting power of them comes with the leverage and the shearing action of the properly swung sword. A razor sharp sword would quickly become dull in combat. The only safe ways to bring your body in contact with an opponents blade are these; If you hit the flat of the blade, or if you first stop the motion of the blade with your own sword. (at this point the opponents blade can be grasped) Any attempt to block a sword stroke with a limb, or to grasp the blade during the stroke, will result in serious injury.

Japanese swords used to be tested on condemned criminals. A strong swordsman with a good blade could cut through three torsos in a row. Modern swords are often tested on pig carcasses. They seldom have difficulty cutting through pigs of the same girth as a human. You can break a human skull with a glass bottle, to say nothing of a sword.

The fact that a human can break a concrete block with his hand does not mean that bone is harder than concrete: it means that that the force that he applied at that particular place on the concrete block is sufficient to break the block but not his hand. As an architect, I note that martial artists never hit the block from the direction that the block is strongest. Martial artists (or, I should say, the unarmed martial arts of asia) frequently talk up the power of the art and the human body, getting all mystical in the process. Really, these things are just tricks. I have no doubt that if I were swinging a 2x4 at someone with the intent to injure them, they would not be able to break it without suffering injury. It is quite different than a demonstration in a dojo. May I ask which direction they hold the board in when they hit you? Do you get hit by the 2 or the 4? I'm guessing its the 4. The 2 would injure you. Building materials have different strengths depending on the geometry.
 
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There's a lot of stuff here, so I'm going to try and asnwer what seem to be the most prevalent questions.

He has no armour; he's wearing something about as armour-like as a long sleeve t-shirt. Yes, the person is a soldier in a standing army several months into an invasion, so he's quite experienced. He's using a single-handed sword, probably pretty similar to an arming sword, which I think is one-handed. But he's also going to die pretty soon after doing whatever he end up doing to the protag's arm.

All the character needs to do is deflect (since blocking doesn't seem likely at this point?) one swing/thrust. In the situation I'm thinking of, the sword would have seen plenty of use. It's probably nicked, maybe chipped, and most likely dulled--from fights with actual trained swordsmen.

I want a fairly serious injury, definitely disabling. Anything short of his arm being hacked off entirely. Nerve damage, shattered bones, extreme blood loss, cut tendons and muscle, it's all good. Just no involuntary amputation.

sunandshadow- yes there is magical healing--along with some more mundane methods... by self-trained kids who certainly did not focus on healing in their magical studies. There will be no re-attached arms, hence my wish to avoid the arm being chopped off. There will be no miraculous cure. There will be terrible working conditions, supplies from what they can gather in the field, and they're trying to get very, very far away from this battle as fast as they can. The protag will be doing everything left handed for a long time. Not forever, but the longer this disability lasts, the better.

Baha- thanks for the link. I read the thread and the one it lnked to. Informative, though for the moment, I'm not sure whether they will have a direct effect. As for SR, the "further questions" I mentioned deviate a bit from this topic, and one or two may be much more fitting with regards to the purpose of this section than that of SR. But I will take a firther look in SR for useful threads. Thanks again.
 
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Archaeology supports the: Medieval weapons can chop limbs.

Regarding fight choreography. One more question: What's the set? Indoors/outdoors, forest etc?

I'm quite aware that medieval weapons can chop limbs. I'm trying find a way where they wouldn't. But if I can't, I can't. I'll be disappointed, but I'm not going to cheat just to get the scene in.


Regarding the "set": it is in a courtyard near some stables. There's not really much fighting there, though... Is it all that relevant?
 
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Lhun

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I'm quite aware that medieval weapons can chop limbs. I'm trying find a way where they wouldn't. But if I can't, I can't. I'll be disappointed, but I'm not going to cheat just to get the scene in.
I'd suggest you simply give the attacker a reason not to strike with full force. Just have him slash at the guy, with enough force to cause a deep cut and break the bone, but not enough to hack the arm off. Maybe he tried to slash at the throat, so tried to hack with speed but not full force.
 

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well, you could have the blade encounter something that slows it down before it impacts.

For example, they are fighting, and the one guy jumps backwards under the awning of the stable. The swordblow comes down, through the eave of the roof, to strike him on his upraised arm. Arm gets cut, bone gets broke, person gets rattled, perfectly feasible. you might even get the roof falling on him, which would make the assailant think 'well that takes care of that one' and move on.
 

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I'm quite aware that medieval weapons can chop limbs. I'm trying find a way where they wouldn't. But if I can't, I can't. I'll be disappointed, but I'm not going to cheat just to get the scene in.


Regarding the "set": it is in a courtyard near some stables. There's not really much fighting there, though... Is it all that relevant?

The difficulty is in having the protag take a bad wound, and then slay his attacker.

Stables help.
  1. Bad guy takes a swing at hero
  2. Hero steps back into doorway or narrow opening.
  3. Bad guy's blade stops at the horizontal (western swordsmen don't "cut through") and he thrusts (not lunges).
  4. Hero tries to pivot in around the blade and catch BG's wrist with his left.
  5. BG smashes edge of shield into hero's left wrist, CRUNCH.
  6. Hero completes action; palm under chin snapping BG's neck.
 

zornhau

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well, you could have the blade encounter something that slows it down before it impacts.

For example, they are fighting, and the one guy jumps backwards under the awning of the stable. The swordblow comes down, through the eave of the roof, to strike him on his upraised arm. Arm gets cut, bone gets broke, person gets rattled, perfectly feasible. you might even get the roof falling on him, which would make the assailant think 'well that takes care of that one' and move on.

Two snags with this:
  • Swordsmen tend to have good awareness of the spaces around them.
  • In most styles, the cut is executed by punching the first forward towards the target; no wild overhead swings.
 

Sarpedon

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And 2 responses:

In the excitement of combat, a person of low to moderate skill could easily make such mistakes.

In Japanese swordsmanship, the over the head stroke is very common, and is regarded as the appropriate finishing blow. So there are plenty of styles that would call for such a stroke. Even in a more western style, an inexperienced swordsman would swing his sword in such a way.
 

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How about the swordsman himself is injured from earlier fighting, that could make him weaker or clumsier or slower, pretty much anything you want to mitigate the blow.
 
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I'd suggest you simply give the attacker a reason not to strike with full force. Just have him slash at the guy, with enough force to cause a deep cut and break the bone, but not enough to hack the arm off. Maybe he tried to slash at the throat, so tried to hack with speed but not full force.


This is one thing I was considering... If people think this is generally a reasonable method, I would certinly go with it.

Also, sunandshadow has brought up a useful (perhaps?) possibility.


I should explain that the reason he uses his arm is because he has no sword. He's only been training for a short period of time, maybe several months to a year depending on how other aspects of the plot work out, and if he tried to win a sword-fight, the experienced soldier would probably slaughter him. Looking toward Lhun's idea, even if I gave him a weapon, any sort of provocation would be counter-productive anyway.

zornhau- Luckily, the protag doesn't have to do it. Someone else kills the guy. I suppose that was information I should have included, but I was focusing more on what I thought the real issue was, I guess. Sorry 'bout that. Considering this, I will give more of an explanation of events as I currently envision them:

There's the enemy force, which has invaded the protag's country with a very large army. They're currently wiping out any military assets, which includes the academy(close enough as a description) where the protag is living at the time, along with many of his peers and friends. The invasion was not unexpected, but the coutry's army is pretty much crushed in terms of mounting coordinated resistance. This area of the country is pretty far into the interior, and is basically undefended. There are a few instructors in various fields including combat. They are most likely dead at this point. The "students" are doing the intelligent thing and running like hell, because they'd be worse off than the instructors. Many are minor nobility preparing to enter into various government posts. There are also some fairly important noble children who would make good hostages. There are lots of enemy soldiers, maybe a few hundred. Fighting not so much a good idea. The plan is to get to the aforementioned stables and sneak off into the forest nearby.

This scene is basically the result of them not quite making it in time. A few soldiers catch up. One character trips, the protag goes back to get him--they're friends. He interrupts the soldier being about to kill the other person.

Maybe another possibiliy would be to back it up so that the soldier sees him peripherally and swipes at him without being entirely balanced and without his full force behind it. Kid throws arm up and jumps back, getting hit a little more lightly.
 
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Nivarion

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Bones are NOT stronger than steel. Bonesaws are made of steel.

Swords are sharp, but not razor sharp. The cutting power of them comes with the leverage and the shearing action of the properly swung sword. A razor sharp sword would quickly become dull in combat. The only safe ways to bring your body in contact with an opponents blade are these; If you hit the flat of the blade, or if you first stop the motion of the blade with your own sword. (at this point the opponents blade can be grasped) Any attempt to block a sword stroke with a limb, or to grasp the blade during the stroke, will result in serious injury.

Japanese swords used to be tested on condemned criminals. A strong swordsman with a good blade could cut through three torsos in a row. Modern swords are often tested on pig carcasses. They seldom have difficulty cutting through pigs of the same girth as a human. You can break a human skull with a glass bottle, to say nothing of a sword.

The fact that a human can break a concrete block with his hand does not mean that bone is harder than concrete: it means that that the force that he applied at that particular place on the concrete block is sufficient to break the block but not his hand. As an architect, I note that martial artists never hit the block from the direction that the block is strongest. Martial artists (or, I should say, the unarmed martial arts of asia) frequently talk up the power of the art and the human body, getting all mystical in the process. Really, these things are just tricks. I have no doubt that if I were swinging a 2x4 at someone with the intent to injure them, they would not be able to break it without suffering injury. It is quite different than a demonstration in a dojo. May I ask which direction they hold the board in when they hit you? Do you get hit by the 2 or the 4? I'm guessing its the 4. The 2 would injure you. Building materials have different strengths depending on the geometry.


and swords and armor are made of steel. structurally bone is as strong as steel. fresh bone that is, it begins to weaken as it is dried out. a fresh human femur can support more than 2000 pounds. and just like building materials it has its geometries too. a hack in the right direction would cut clean through but a block in the right way and a cut would be about the worst you would face.

and they started us with the four, as we got better they moved to the two.

one of bones negatives in its strength compared to steel is that it is brittle. one of its strengths is that can change strength by the forces it deals with constantly. shattering a skull with the bottle is just the same a shattering the bottle with the hand. i should know since i had a guy try to kill me with a skate board by hitting me with the trucks. he hit me wrong and snapped his skate board on my head.

i would say i beat his ass but when i turned around i looked right into the sun with my dilated eyes. i hurt him bad, but didn't beat him like i wanted to.

on mythbusters they were testing the strength of human bones for their re build of buster. a dried humerus was breaking at about 300 lbs laterally.

oh and i remembered the term, its pectoral girdle. pectoral.

and a bone saw cuts through bone by taking off a small layer at a time.

and while I'm rambling here.

Steel is not the most bad ass of materials on any one of its traits. it is not the hardest metal, or the lightest, or the easiest to get, or even the best material like it. what makes it so great is that is has a blend of strength and weight, malleability and resistance to time not found in many other materials.

and on that link to the weapons cutting through bones only 29 out of 456 slicing wounds found, actually cut through the bone. (and i have a feeling that they were from a 2h sword or an axe.


so loisse, depending on how long the battle has been going your guy can either be in the blue or dead by the blow that didn't stop at the arm. if it was long enough in that the other guys sword is beginning to dull then i would say that his arm was cut deeply like in the femur in the third picture down on zornhau's link. if they have just started fighting, or the other guy had a second sword he just recently whipped out, then your guy is in bad shape.
 

zornhau

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and on that link to the weapons cutting through bones only 29 out of 456 slicing wounds found, actually cut through the bone. (and i have a feeling that they were from a 2h sword or an axe.

Yes, but most of them would not have been parrying with their arm. Presumably the amputations reflect a rare direct hit on the limb.

You don't need a 2h weapon to take off somebody's hand - this from a 15th-century manual:
tafel_228-2.gif

"Der hat jenen angelaufen im Zorn und hat ihn durch den kopf hauen wollen. - Der hat von unden kräftig pariert und im Aufziehen hat er ihm die hand abgehauen."
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"He had meant to step forward with Wrath and strike him through the head. - He has parried strongly from below and in flashing out has cut the hand off."[/FONT]
(Source)

If the hero doesn't need to off his assailant, have him try to slap the sword away, and take a nasty cut down the meat of his forearm, and a gouge out of hsi upper arm.

(Yes, he could survive by luck, but I'm not sure that's good plotting.)
 
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