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Eskimo1990
01-02-2009, 03:45 AM
Or of signs that we are supposed to follow?

What do you believe causes them?

scarletpeaches
01-02-2009, 03:46 AM
No.

Fate or signs* are contrary to free will and I know which I'd rather believe in.

*Excepting Signs, the movie with Joaquin Phoenix. ROWR! :e2brows:

Siddow
01-02-2009, 03:55 AM
Yes.
http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:gn83m5clXfd-NM:http://www.kerryveenstra.com/images/detour.gif
Follow the signs.

Shadow_Ferret
01-02-2009, 03:57 AM
No.

DL Hegel
01-02-2009, 04:01 AM
Yes I do--in the sense--that we attract certain things we need in life. And sometimes there are signs--strange coincidences--and if we are open to seeing those--we have an easier time learning the things we need to know.

But fate is too final--I just think of them as part of the journey--which is guided by our will. And truely--sometimes there is no wrong or right choice--but just a choice.

Nice thread Esk:)

Ken
01-02-2009, 04:24 AM
I sometimes get the impression that fate rules my life: that no matter how hard I try to succeed at something I will always ultimately fail, due to being born under a bad sign or something. If you were familiar with my history you'd understand where I'm coming from with this. Everything, and I do mean everything, always culminates in disaster for me, and if things are going good for a time that is only to get my hopes up so that the defeat will be more agonizing. I ain't glum about it, though. There's satisfaction to be had just in trying to beat the odds, even if you know you can't win...as I learnt from Roland's song :-) Just gotta get me a Olifant horn to blow through and I'll be all set.

joyce
01-02-2009, 04:29 AM
I guess I believe we make our own fate or karma. Though, sometimes bad stuff just seems to happen to good people for no reason. I suppose I believe life is filled with lessons and paths. If you keep screwing up a certain path, you'll have to repeat it. The people and places might have changed, but the same lesson is there.

Eskimo1990
01-02-2009, 04:30 AM
Reason I ask is...there's this guy. I've known him for nearly two years now.
Recently we've been trying to see each other again. (he lives 2, sometimes 3 hours away depending on if he's at school) The last 4 or 5 times something has always happened that is something we can not avoid.
One time we planned a visit...he ended up having emergency surgery on his appendix.
Another time he got accused of stealing and had to turn in his key for his car so he couldn't leave campus. (The guy later found the stuff he had accused him a stealing)
The next, his work REFUSED to give him the time off even though he asked like a week in advance.
Today roads were bad.
And so we made plans for tomorrow.
Something serious happened with his sister tonight, most likely canceling our plans for tomorrow.

Now I'm wondering if this is a sign that me and him just aren't meant to do this. Sigh...

joyce
01-02-2009, 04:33 AM
I always figure if it's meant to happen, it'll happen.....no matter how much time is involved. Love works in mysterious ways. I hope it all works out for you.:)

Eskimo1990
01-02-2009, 04:35 AM
Thanks. I hope so too...

DL Hegel
01-02-2009, 04:38 AM
To Ken:
Who we are is not defined by what happens to us--but what we do with what happens to us. Our adversities and challenges--create our essense more than pink fluffy happy things. I understand having more than what a body should have--in negative events. But by facing these things head on--we become stronger, braver, and wiser than we thought we could be. And i bet you are pretty amazing.

Siddow
01-02-2009, 04:40 AM
Reason I ask is...there's this guy. I've known him for nearly two years now.
Recently we've been trying to see each other again. (he lives 2, sometimes 3 hours away depending on if he's at school) The last 4 or 5 times something has always happened that is something we can not avoid.
One time we planned a visit...he ended up having emergency surgery on his appendix.
Another time he got accused of stealing and had to turn in his key for his car so he couldn't leave campus. (The guy later found the stuff he had accused him a stealing)
The next, his work REFUSED to give him the time off even though he asked like a week in advance.
Today roads were bad.
And so we made plans for tomorrow.
Something serious happened with his sister tonight, most likely canceling our plans for tomorrow.

Now I'm wondering if this is a sign that me and him just aren't meant to do this. Sigh...

uh...this all looks like reasons why HE canceled. Did you verify any of this?

Sometimes it's not so much fate, as it is clues. I vote you find someone who doesn't have so many excuses, and would risk bad roads and burst appendixes to see you. :)

Eskimo1990
01-02-2009, 04:46 AM
Well it all depends on him as I don't drive.

And I think I would rather have him in the hospital and NOT dead....

Same with bad roads. I would rather have him safe and at home then risking it to come visit me. ...but maybe that's just me.

Shadow_Ferret
01-02-2009, 04:58 AM
3 hours isn't that far away. I would think 2 people in love would be able to overcome such a short distance. I'm tending to agree with Siddow here.

Eskimo1990
01-02-2009, 05:00 AM
Yes you would think. But me no car, no license, no money, and parents that are willing to drive me tend to make things difficult.

joyce
01-02-2009, 05:03 AM
To Ken:
Who we are is not defined by what happens to us--but what we do with what happens to us. Our adversities and challenges--create our essense more than pink fluffy happy things. I understand having more than what a body should have--in negative events. But by facing these things head on--we become stronger, braver, and wiser than we thought we could be. And i bet you are pretty amazing.

Very nicely said!

Ken
01-02-2009, 05:19 AM
you're 210% right, DL Hegel, about adversities and challenges making us what we are. It's ones labor that matters, not the fruits that may or may not arrive afterwards. Thanks for getting me to see that. I owe you one :-)

robeiae
01-02-2009, 06:18 AM
It's ones labor that matters, not the fruits that may or may not arrive afterwards. Thanks for getting me to see that. I owe you one :-)
Communist.

Ken
01-02-2009, 06:53 AM
Communist.

...guess I'd better be gettin' a hammer & sickle then, too, alongside of an oliphant horn ;-)

benbradley
01-02-2009, 07:11 AM
Reason I ask is...there's this guy. I've known him for nearly two years now.
Recently we've been trying to see each other again. (he lives 2, sometimes 3 hours away depending on if he's at school) The last 4 or 5 times something has always happened that is something we can not avoid.
One time we planned a visit...he ended up having emergency surgery on his appendix.
Another time he got accused of stealing and had to turn in his key for his car so he couldn't leave campus. (The guy later found the stuff he had accused him a stealing)
Of all those, this is the one that sounds most like a "story" to me. What kind of campus would have a student turn in a car key due to suspicion of stealing, or for any reason (other than maybe reckless driving, and for that they might demand he keep the car off campus, or even kick him out of school)? I've never heard of such a thing.

The next, his work REFUSED to give him the time off even though he asked like a week in advance.
Today roads were bad.
And so we made plans for tomorrow.
Something serious happened with his sister tonight, most likely canceling our plans for tomorrow.

Now I'm wondering if this is a sign that me and him just aren't meant to do this. Sigh...
In recent weeks someone in a post mentioned Randy Pausch - I'd heard of him and recall the news report when he died, but didn't know much about him, so I Googled him, found his webpage and read the transcript (pdf file linked to at the word "Transcript" on this page) of his famous "Last Lecture" here (it also has videos of the speech, but even with the bandwidrh available, I often prever reading transcripts especially printed out, so I can read at my speed rather than watching a video):
http://download.srv.cs.cmu.edu/~pausch/ (http://download.srv.cs.cmu.edu/%7Epausch/)

One of the things he says several times is "brick walls are to stop people who don't really want it" (whatever "it" is, something about achieving one's childhood dreams). I don't believe that, it's just another version of "fate," as if "brick walls" or stumbling blocks in life put themselves there intentionally. Sometimes such stumbling blocks ARE intentionally put in one's life by 'trolls' and other hurtful people, but otherwise I've found no reason to believe these things are anything other than random events with no purpose or meaning other than what some people read into them.

But his point is well taken that determination and perserverance are good qualities to have if we are to achieve anything non-trivial in life.



It's ones labor that matters, not the fruits that may or may not arrive afterwards. Thanks for getting me to see that. I owe you one :-)
Communist.
I was thinking along those lines too. What was that line I heard last year, "We're gonna spread the fruits." ;)

Palmfrond
01-02-2009, 07:14 AM
How is believing in "fate" different from believing in, say, Santa Claus?

DL Hegel
01-02-2009, 07:17 AM
you're 210% right, DL Hegel, about adversities and challenges making us what we are. It's ones labor that matters, not the fruits that may or may not arrive afterwards. Thanks for getting me to see that. I owe you one :-) thanks:) I so get where you are coming from:)


Communist. do extra vowels confuse the ignore button?

robeiae
01-02-2009, 07:19 AM
I'm not sure. If not, it must be fate...

DL Hegel
01-02-2009, 07:24 AM
Darn! Just my luck.

willfulone
01-02-2009, 08:46 AM
I believe things happen for a reason. They were meant to happen as they did/how they did/when they did for whatever reason - even do we not see the how/why/reasoning. And I believe this is an indicator of fate working.

I believe Karma will knock you on your ass for a wrong and give back for a right - but not all the time. One cannot believe in such ("what goes around, comes around" or "they will get theirs someday") without believing a bit in fate (IMO).

One can FIND anything (good/bad) if they look hard enough and talk themselves into a resolution or result. Kinda like reading a horoscope at the end of the day and finding a way to make it "fit" your actual day. Or reading it before commencing your day and putting yourself in a situation that makes the prophacy seem truth. Or reading the examples in the OP and finding fault or excuse in the reasoning behind what the fella told when it may be totally honest. Just like THERE could ACTUALLY be deceit by the fella and one could explain it away for not wishing to see that something does not seem to make sense in his tellings.

People can create a situation they wish for or wish NOT to have, just with their own actions/reactions in a given instance - some of the time.

I believe free will can affect outcomes in some things, but I also believe that things are gonna (or not) happen sometimes, no matter the will of the one trying to evoke (or thwart) such happening.

Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people (sometimes in spades too). That is luck of the draw - or fate in my opinion. Or it would not happen. Good would always gravitate to those who are good and bad would gravitate to those who are bad. Now, again, this is just my opinion. But, distribution of good and bad across the board seems more fated than it does reward or punishment for being or living a certain way.

YEAH. I believe in signs.

Bodies alert (in some cases, many more than people realize) to danger. Seen or unseen.

We get heebie-geebies for some things we hear/see and know are off without being able to put a finger on why.

We sometimes can ask ourselves a question and instantly an answer will come back to us in our minds. When we fail to listen to that voice, we sometimes find we should have.

So, yeah I believe in signs. I believe our intuition gives us signs. Most people just ignore intuition. Too busy, think it bunk, whatever.

I get signs. Mine come in the form of butterflies in my stomach/chest. The butterflies come and bring a message. They are a sign of something out of the ordinary to occur. Not necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. Just SOME thing. And, I can have them at a given time on a given day, call the person that popped into my head when I got them. And, they will tell me that something occurred at that time on that day (or close to it). Can be good or bad. But it is always something. And, it is not just that is when they went to the tinkle pot and copped a squat. It will be something. Sometimes I know it is bad, sometimes I know it is good. Sometimes I cannot tell.

But, I have an uncanny knack for predicting things. Sometimes it just pops out of me or into my head. Sometimes it comes if I think or concentrate on something. And, yeah, I am sometimes wrong. But, most often? I am right.

So, I do believe in signs. And I listen when I get one.

Christine

NeuroFizz
01-02-2009, 09:43 AM
Fate, and its bastard cousin, predestination, are interesting because given a choice, it doesn't matter what we choose because the choice never existed. So we are never really given choices. It's great circular logic. It's also convenient because it can take us off the hook for everything--it takes responsibility for our actions totally off the table. Of course, those who use the concept of fate to explain some of the events in their lives while insisting that free will still exists, are just predestined to do so by fate, which means by their lack of free will. So free will is only expressed through fate, which excludes that very free will. But fate will free free will from any responsibility over our actions, which means fate is predestined, and therefore, we can't use fate to explain any occurrences in our lives because it was all laid out for us and wasn't an occurrence, but a planned action. And all of those actions have no reactions because if they are planned, there is no reacting but only planned acting. And if you've read this far, you know that my will is free to make light of predestination, which is a reaction to the concept, which negates the possibility of it being any kind of fate. And only in a fate-free zone are we free to post in a thread like this totally making fun of ourselves.

Palmfrond
01-02-2009, 09:55 AM
I love those studies that show that by the time a person makes a decision to move his hand, the signal from his brain is already halfway down to the muscle that is going to move the hand. He thinks he has made a free will decision, but in fact he has only become aware of something his body is already doing.

Ciera_
01-02-2009, 10:26 AM
I don't believe in fate or destiny or anything like that. It's a lot more pleasant to think that we have some measure of control, certainly full control over what we do.
But when Mohinder (on Heroes, of course) babbles on about it, sometimes I forget these firm views. =P

NeuroFizz
01-02-2009, 10:34 AM
I love those studies that show that by the time a person makes a decision to move his hand, the signal from his brain is already halfway down to the muscle that is going to move the hand. He thinks he has made a free will decision, but in fact he has only become aware of something his body is already doing.
My partially tongue-in-cheek post above aside, what you've described here is a reflex action, where the action precedes conscious recognition of the act. This is still totally within the normal responses of the nervous system as the straight-through reflex pathway is quicker than the pathway to the conscious centers of the brain. It has nothing to do with free will or fate. It's all pure physiology. And neural activity that occurs outside of our consciousness, like postural adjustments, also has nothing to do with free will and fate. Again, it's all strictly dependent upon cellular physiology and circuitry within the nervous system--some of these reflexes can even occur with having a head (strictly spinal reflexes), as can coordinated alternate movements of the legs (the pattern generators for walking are located in the lower spinal cord).

In know it's tempting to think in these terms with physiological responses, but free will and fate are more a province of philosophy, than of simple (or even complex) physiology. But I'll thank you for mentioning these responses because these aspects of reflex physiology are really cool.

kct webber
01-02-2009, 10:58 AM
Fate, Peter Pan, and the Easter Bunny are the same person. They are the Holy Trinity of refusal to take responsibility for your own actions, refusal to grow up, and refusal to buy your own eggs.

robeiae
01-02-2009, 02:27 PM
What about the Tooth Fairy?

NeuroFizz
01-02-2009, 05:21 PM
What about the Tooth Fairy?
That deals with developmentally programmed tooth loss, so it's predestination. Maybe even the parents' acknowledgement of that temporary predestination. Which means . . . um . . . later . . . free will kills the Tooth Fairy.

scarletpeaches
01-02-2009, 05:26 PM
I believe in Harvey Dent.

quickWit
01-02-2009, 05:54 PM
How is believing in "fate" different from believing in, say, Santa Claus?

Fate is stoopit. Santa brings presents.

Palmfrond
01-02-2009, 08:33 PM
My partially tongue-in-cheek post above aside, what you've described here is a reflex action, where the action precedes conscious recognition of the act. This is still totally within the normal responses of the nervous system as the straight-through reflex pathway is quicker than the pathway to the conscious centers of the brain. It has nothing to do with free will or fate. It's all pure physiology. And neural activity that occurs outside of our consciousness, like postural adjustments, also has nothing to do with free will and fate. Again, it's all strictly dependent upon cellular physiology and circuitry within the nervous system--some of these reflexes can even occur with having a head (strictly spinal reflexes), as can coordinated alternate movements of the legs (the pattern generators for walking are located in the lower spinal cord).

In know it's tempting to think in these terms with physiological responses, but free will and fate are more a province of philosophy, than of simple (or even complex) physiology. But I'll thank you for mentioning these responses because these aspects of reflex physiology are really cool.

Very cool. And really all that's necessary to describe what people perceive as "free will". My consciousness can be accounted for by a very complicated bag of electrochemical processes. The philosophical concept of free well is a side effect of the long time that it takes to become aware of our actions.

Shadow_Ferret
01-02-2009, 08:34 PM
Mmkay. :rolleyes:

Silver King
01-03-2009, 03:47 AM
Reason I ask is...there's this guy. I've known him for nearly two years now.

Recently we've been trying to see each other again....
Is this the same person you've dated before? If so, remember all of the problems concerning your relationship we discussed here some months ago when you were able to see him?

Fate has nothing to do with how you proceed now. Your past with this person, however, should guide you to seek greener pastures with someone else.

Reminds me of lines from an old Streisand tune:

...Can it be that it was all so simple then?
Or has time re-written every line?
If we had the chance to do it all again
Tell me, would we? could we?
Memories, may be beautiful and yet
Whats too painful to remember
We simply choose to forget...

joyce
01-03-2009, 04:07 AM
Is this the same person you've dated before? If so, remember all of the problems concerning your relationship we discussed here some months ago when you were able to see him?

Fate has nothing to do with how you proceed now. Your past with this person, however, should guide you to seek greener pastures with someone else.

Reminds me of lines from an old Streisand tune:

...Can it be that it was all so simple then?
Or has time re-written every line?
If we had the chance to do it all again
Tell me, would we? could we?
Memories, may be beautiful and yet
Whats too painful to remember
We simply choose to forget...

I must admit I was wondering the same thing. If this is still the same guy, it just seems like too much heartache and problems are attached to this relationship. I do wish you the best of luck though.

xiaotien
01-03-2009, 04:11 AM
i do.

but only if it suits me.

/bootay shake!

Silver King
01-03-2009, 04:28 AM
I must admit I was wondering the same thing. If this is still the same guy, it just seems like too much heartache and problems are attached to this relationship...
I'm not sure what fate is, but I'm fairly certain it has nothing to do with making the same mistakes over and over while wishing for a different outcome.

Yeshanu
01-03-2009, 04:31 AM
Fate happens to everyone. I can predict that in 2009, bad things will happen to everyone. Good things will also happen to everyone.

But here's the kicker--the effect they have on your life will be determined not by what happens, or how it happens, but by how you handle it. In other words, by your own choices.

Blaming "fate" or "predestination" for failure to achieve some goal is, as someone above pointed out, simply a way to avoid taking responsibility for your own actions and reactions, which come about through your free will.

With regards to your relationship, whether it's the same one as before or a new one: Whether or not it works out well will be determined by the choices that you and the man make. And I'm going to say right out that it seems a little fishy to me that he's copped out several times in a row. Fate, or his unconscious choice?

scarletpeaches
01-03-2009, 05:11 AM
Call me harsh, but I say if a man really wants to be with you then he will be. Screw fate. If he's not with you right now, it's because he doesn't want to be.

Eskimo1990
01-04-2009, 11:00 PM
I never said me and him were dating.
While, yes it is the same guy from before. I have never once dated him.
He's always been 2 hours away from me.
We're just....how did he put this? Oh right. Great friends who are attracted to each other.

I'm fine with this...for now. I'm still trying to sort out my last relationship.

Snowstorm
01-04-2009, 11:36 PM
I don't believe in fate. I believe that life is easy, we choose to make it hard. Life's full of choices and I don't believe some otherworldly being makes us do certain things.

(Keep in mind, I'm not talking about things we cannot control: struck by lightening or a drunk driver, a pregnancy forced to end in a tubal pregnancy, or contacting a disease we don't bring on ourselves like MS.)

I have a lot of trouble believing a two-hour drive is a problem. But I have to remind myself that it's relative. In a large-populated area, a two-hour drive can seem a huge distance and daunting. Here in Wyoming, people drive further than that for a good steak--literally.

Have you considered taking control of the situation? Instead of being "dependent" (for lack of a better word) on him to make it to you, can you take a bus to him (I don't know your age)? Or perhaps do something totally different: take a break from each other. No contact for a month or other time period. If he's drifting, then it may make him want to be with you and he'll make a concerted effort to make the trip. Or if he's drifting from you, he might find the nerve to say so. Plus it'll give YOU a break from the repetitive this weekend, this weekend, this weekend, .... Good luck.

scarletpeaches
01-04-2009, 11:40 PM
One of my previous boyfriends used to drive well over two hours to come see me. He had a car. I didn't. It made sense that way. He didn't see it as a problem and yes, he had other commitments but he made time to see me because he wanted to.

I'm not saying this as a boast - hell, he dumped me in the end so why would I?! - but just to make the point that a two hour drive is nothing to a man who wants to see you. Heck, a friend of mine had a boyfriend who flew round the world to see her for less than a week.

A man who wants to see you won't let anything get in his way. A man who doesn't will create stumbling blocks where there are none.

Eskimo1990
01-04-2009, 11:45 PM
Snow, we've taken breaks from each other. Many.

I could take a bus now. I'm 18. But still no job so...no money.
I plan on getting my permit soon...and then hopefully soon my license. Which will make things a lot easier.
And soon I will be moving on campus to Eastern....which will make things a lot easier.

Thanks btw.

scarletpeaches
01-04-2009, 11:47 PM
Esk, I know I seem harsh on this. I mean well. I just hate to see anyone driving themselves crazy over another.

And it seems to me - I hope I'm wrong - that you're the only one getting tangled up in knots over this. You're moving. You're getting a car.

Let him make a move FFS. Let him prove how much he wants to see you.

And if he doesn't? Well...you've lost nothing.

Well, except some time.

Better that than your dignity.

Eskimo1990
01-04-2009, 11:54 PM
I'm moving cause I'm going to college. even without him in the picture, eastern would still be where I was going. (he goes to notre dame btw) I'm getting a car because I'm gonna need it. I've put it off for long enough for my fear of driving. but i'm getting older it's time to grow up and not be afraid. but these events would have happened with or without him in the picture.

ErylRavenwell
01-05-2009, 04:50 AM
My will is fate.

MsK
01-05-2009, 07:29 AM
Being a hopeless (hopeful) romantic, I want to have some belief in fate.

I see it this way:
There are certain paths we may come to in our lives, and maybe that's the 'fate' part of it.
We also have free will at play, and the decisions we make when we come to those paths are our own free will.

The older I get, the harder it is to hang on to my 'silly' beliefs, but every now and then, life throws another 'aha' moment at me, and I'm able to continue believing. :)