Nerve damage, hands, fingers, etc.

thethinker42 · Dec 30, 2008

I have a character that sustains some DEEP cuts to his forearm.

1. How deep would it have to go to cause nerve damage that would affect his hand? Also, WHERE on his forearm would he have to be cut to affect the nerves in his hand?

2. In what ways could nerve damage manifest itself? (twitching? paralysis? loss of sensation?)

I still want him to have use of his hand and fingers, but would it be possible to damage it enough that even years later it would be noticeable (to others, not just him)?

Any input, much appreciated.

Fenika · Dec 30, 2008

Since this is complex, I think you have to decide exactly how much of his hand/arm you want loss of function of. You said hand, so if you don't want him to flex or extend (one or the other!) from below his wrist, you are prolly looking at deep deep forearm damage. The nerves are pretty well protected in the forearm.

There's another thread that was similar, lemme find it for you...

thethinker42 · Dec 30, 2008

I'd like him to still have use of his hand, not SEVERE damage...what are mah options here?

Fenika · Dec 30, 2008

Here it is:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112283&

To answer question 2, with peripheral nervous system damage you rarely ever get a form of twitching. paralysis and loss of sensation. There are cutaneous nerve maps (one on wiki I think, but they aren't hard to find). So once you cut a nerve, look at the map. Everything below the cut, coded to that nerve, will be 'dead' skin. Deep pain may still be felt by other nerves. (for example, you loose sensation to the back of your hand but not the front and sides).

And also, once you decide what nerve to cut, you can see how deep it runs in the target area. Or ask me and I'll look it up. But forearm nerves may require more of a stab or wrenching than a clean slice since they tuck between the bones. If you slice near the elbow however, those nerves are exposed as they cross the bone (sometimes)

Fenika · Dec 30, 2008

Use of his hand? So you can have him still grip things (with effort) but never straighten (extend) his fingers. The wrist would also be a problem. It's called radial nerve damage and is very common. See link above for a bit more. Youtube would show what it looks like, I bet.

thethinker42 · Dec 30, 2008

Cool, thanks.

That may change how I'm addressing this particular issue...most of the wound was going to be in the forearm (in the muscle)....I'll have to play with it a bit...

Samantha's_Song · Dec 30, 2008

In real life I have damage to the bones in my neck, which causes a great deal of problems for my hands and fingers: eg; pain, involuntary shaking, pins and needles when doing things like typing, and I involuntarily drop things because my fingers open when holding/carrying things... It's a right old pain in the proverbial arse

thethinker42 said:
I'd like him to still have use of his hand, not SEVERE damage...what are mah options here?

thethinker42 · Dec 30, 2008

Bahamutchild said:
Use of his hand? So you can have him still grip things (with effort) but never straighten (extend) his fingers. The wrist would also be a problem. It's called radial nerve damage and is very common. See link above for a bit more. Youtube would show what it looks like, I bet.

That's good to know. That's actually what I'm looking for, now that you mention it: gripping with effort, etc. Now...dumb question maybe, but bear with me...let's assume he can't extend his fingers. Does that just mean he can't extend them on his own, or that his fingers simply WON'T straighten (i.e., if he presses his hand flat against something)?

And (bear with me, it's late at night, so my brain is fried) where and how deep would he need to cut his arm to cause this kind of damage?

thethinker42 · Dec 30, 2008

Samantha's_Song said:
In real life I have damage to the bones in my neck, which causes a great deal of problems for my hands and fingers: eg; pain, involuntary shaking, pins and needles when doing things like typing, and I involuntarily drop things because my fingers open when holding/carrying things... It's a right old pain in the proverbial arse

I have a friend who has problems like that as a result of smoking crack, believe it or not. This guy gets his arm cut up pretty badly though, and I want to make sure I'm explaining it correctly...

Fenika · Dec 30, 2008

Unless he goes around for a year (well, months) not straightening his fingers (by hand or by pressing), he'll still have all the movement (and he'll want to do at least crude PT to keep his tendons loose and keep the problem of curled fingers from getting worst).

So he physically can't send a signal to contract the muscles, pull on the tendons, and straighten the joints, but they can still do so if something else 'pulls' on them.

Since you're strongly leaning toward radial nerve, I'll go find you an img. The higher you cut it, the more you screw up...

Samantha's_Song · Dec 30, 2008

LOL I promise that my problems were nothing whatsoever to do with smoking crack.

I know a woman who got slashed on the back of her leg with a knife, it sliced her tendon and caused a lot of problems for her for a long time. So maybe a tendon in his arm being cut might do it.

thethinker42 · Dec 30, 2008

Bahamutchild said:
Unless he goes around for a year (well, months) not straightening his fingers (by hand or by pressing), he'll still have all the movement (and he'll want to do at least crude PT to keep his tendons loose and keep the problem of curled fingers from getting worst).

So he physically can't send a signal to contract the muscles, pull on the tendons, and straighten the joints, but they can still do so if something else 'pulls' on them.

Since you're strongly leaning toward radial nerve, I'll go find you an img. The higher you cut it, the more you screw up...

That is PRECISELY what I'm looking for. If you have a pic, I'll owe you forever.

And this would affect his entire hand/wrist? Or does it sometimes only affect a few fingers?

Fenika · Dec 30, 2008

Actually, look at a few of these, though they don't all show depth: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=radial nerve path&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

(or search radial nerve course)

You can also google radial tunnel syndrome. A bit of bone smashing and that might be a fun one for you. And could get better (somewhat) over months and months.

Oh, here's a good img around the elbow: http://www.aafp.org/afp/20000201/691_f4.jpg

Super easy to cut when it's against the bone like that (though getting your character in the right position could be fun, heh) (that's the elbow joint btw. Like I said, you can still cut it lower down. And note there is a superficial and deep branch)

thethinker42 · Dec 30, 2008

Samantha's_Song said:
LOL I promise that my problems were nothing whatsoever to do with smoking crack.

Suuuuuure they don't...

I know a woman who got slashed on the back of her leg with a knife, it sliced her tendon and caused a lot of problems for her for a long time. So maybe a tendon in his arm being cut might do it.

Hmm, that could work...mostly what I'm after is some sort of damage to the mobility/function of his hand, as a result of the cuts on his arm, that is noticeable to him and others but isn't necessarily crippling. (it's not his dominant hand, so no problems with writing, etc.)

thethinker42 · Dec 30, 2008

Awesome, thanks!! They're defensive wounds during a brawl with someone who's attacking him with various sharp objects, so he has plenty of opportunity to do some damage...either when he lands on a bunch of broken glass or when he's stabbed. (Yes, for anyone keeping track, this is our poor guy who gets beat up with dinnerware...)

Bahamutchild said:
Actually, look at a few of these, though they don't all show depth: http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=radial nerve path&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

(or search radial nerve course)

You can also google radial tunnel syndrome. A bit of bone smashing and that might be a fun one for you. And could get better (somewhat) over months and months.

Oh, here's a good img around the elbow: http://www.aafp.org/afp/20000201/691_f4.jpg

Super easy to cut when it's against the bone like that (though getting your character in the right position could be fun, heh) (that's the elbow joint btw. Like I said, you can still cut it lower down. And note there is a superficial and deep branch)

Fenika · Dec 30, 2008

Samantha's_Song said:
problems for her for a long time. So maybe a tendon in his arm being cut might do it.

The problem is the tendons in the legs are much more gathered. It's an option if she wants limited damage, but nerve issues are more fun imo

thethinker42 said:
That is PRECISELY what I'm looking for. If you have a pic, I'll owe you forever.

And this would affect his entire hand/wrist? Or does it sometimes only affect a few fingers?

Some pics above, and again youtube to see what it physically looks like.

For the second question. First, to clarify. Nerves either extend or flex joints (though muscles and tendons, ofc). We've been talking the radial nerve, which is an extensor (so the damaged arm stays flexed. Radial nerve damage high up affects the whole arm and four legers can't bear weight b/c they basically can't do a push up to hold themselves up)
Where was I? Okay, so we are only affecting the extensor, and yes, you can have just a subsection of that injured. I only learned animals in detail, so you'll have to look up the exact details for humans, but it may be possible to have the outter part of the hand injured (the pinkie, ring, etc fingers) or the inner (thumb, etc). But this would require a cut across the wrist or lower. It just depends on where the nerve splits. Or you can combine nerve and tendon damage, since both could be cut...

Really helpful in these situations is clicking around and finding case studies to model your character off of

Glad to be of help.

thethinker42 · Dec 30, 2008

Cool, thanks for the info!

I really should stop being so mean to this character...he's been through enough...LOL

Fenika · Dec 30, 2008

Last post: I think it is the flexor to the hand/paw that is more likely to have a left side / right side manifestation. But you'll get it sorted

scarletpeaches · Dec 30, 2008

I've read chapter nineteen. He has some fun.

Fenika · Dec 30, 2008

thethinker42 said:
Cool, thanks for the info!

I really should stop being so mean to this character...he's been through enough...LOL

Nah. You're not even knocking his central nervous system. This is tiny rocks

Also (hehe, didn't I just say last post?), think of the mental repercussions. The two people I knew with radial nerve damage always tried to keep their hand hidden, b/c it would stay flexed and look (for lack of a better term, sorry) gimpy or retarded. One girl pulled her sleeve down then pinched it between fingers to keep it in place. She would use the hand publicly as needed, but just walking around she liked to cover it.

veinglory · Dec 30, 2008

Full paralysis of the arm can even be produced with a pressure that doesn't break the skin, although it would need to last an hour or more.

thethinker42 · Dec 30, 2008

Bahamutchild said:
Nah. You're not even knocking his central nervous system. This is tiny rocks

Also (hehe, didn't I just say last post?), think of the mental repercussions. The two people I knew with radial nerve damage always tried to keep their hand hidden, b/c it would stay flexed and look (for lack of a better term, sorry) gimpy or retarded. One girl pulled her sleeve down then pinched it between fingers to keep it in place. She would use the hand publicly as needed, but just walking around she liked to cover it.

Oh yes, he's incredibly self-conscious about it. That's one of the reasons I want it to be somewhat "visible". As if the poor guy doesn't already have to deal with some unsightly scars on his arm, his neck, his shoulder, etc.

thethinker42 · Dec 30, 2008

Now, what if, instead of nerve damage and the resulting mobility issues, the injuries just left him with chronic pain and such? i.e., if the muscles were cut fairly deep?

The injury happened about 2 years before the story starts, so any kind of damage would be relatively longterm. Any thoughts?

Nerve damage, hands, fingers, etc.

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

Fenika

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

Fenika

Fenika

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

Samantha's_Song

At least I don't need backing-up

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

Fenika

Samantha's_Song

At least I don't need backing-up

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

Fenika

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

Fenika

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

Fenika

scarletpeaches

Fenika

veinglory

volitare nequeo

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author