A sword in the hands of the totally clueless

I have no expert opinion, but . . .

Since this is for a story, you could play it either way. In real life a person like this probably wouldn't stand much of a chance . . . unless he was bold and brave and did something unexpected. For example, if he were willing to suffer some damage, he might be able to rush the experienced fighter using his shield as much as possible and try to get close in where his larger size would be an advantage, while the closeness would be a disadvantage to the swordsman.

Again, I'm no expert.

You would die. Plain and simple.

Swinging a sword one handed (as the other hand is being used for the shield) is a skill that has to be learned. (I worked at a Renaissance faire in high school... go ahead and laugh.)

A lot will depend on the type of sword. Short sword? Broadsword? Katana? One edged, two edged?

The swords with cages on them are made for one hand - like fencing, but if you're talking about a movie style gladiator sword... those things are heavy. Your guy wouldn't know how or where to position himself or how to take a hit by deflecting with the shield or the blade. (and those shields will break if struck in the right way depending on how they're made.) A lot of sword fighting has to do with balance and precision as much as it does brute force.

Go you YouTube and look up the QVC guy who actually broke off a katana in his own gut - and those are one of the lighter blades.

I have studied Historical European Swordsmanship a little bit. First of all the sword is not that heavy. They weigh about three pounds. That's a myth which will. not. go. away.

If your character is a trained wrestler, while they wouldn't know how to wield the sword properly. They should have the reflexes to deflect the other sword with the shield and get close enough to grapple their opponent. Grappling was a component of HES. In fact, binding their blade or disarming your opponent instead of trading blows was the smart thing to do.

Here's a website which I have found very helpful: Sword Forum International. You could probably email one of the experts in HES and get better help. These guys appear to rather friendly and helpful, though I have not contacted any of them, yet.

Her story is set in Denmark. (I'm assuming this is the time travelling one you posted in SYW) Danish swords were two handed and weighed almost twice what a regular sword of the period did - between 5&6 pound on average. For a modern man (even a big one) this would be like a large isometric weight and he wouldn't be able to sustain it for long.

The grapling aspect would be better.

I'm assuming you want the inexperienced fighter to win, or at least not die.

Again, for a story I think you can find a way to do this and make it believable, as long as you don't do something James Bond-ish. For example, perhaps the confrontation take place on a ship. After backing up, and backing up, the swordsman is moving along the side of the ship, moving in for the kill, the inexperienced fighter notices that the swordsman would be swept overboard if the boom swung around. He feigns an attack just long enough to push the boom and over the side the swordsman goes.

Okay, maybe that's not the best example, but you get the idea.

Maybe he's 'chivalrous' enough to give his opponent a weapon, knowing the guy is clueless, and that it's just a gesture. Maybe he seriously underestimates the guy, doesn't pay attention, slacks off a little, doesn't give the MC any respect, and allows a tiny opening for a clever ploy that wouldn't occur to a proper swordsman. Maybe something no respectable swordsman would do. ie bring the boom around. Or get in so close that the sword is useless, and pull a wrestling move on him. Or something learned in a video game. Are there witnesses? Maybe the opponent is playing to the crowd rather than keeping his attention on the fight?

I can't tell if you've decided to drop the sword fight or not.

If not, your son would be handed either a longsword or a rapier. He probably wouldn't be given a shield. The different swords required different fighting techniques.

One of the best books about the history of sword fighting is Richard Cohen's By the Sword : A History of Gladiators, Musketeers, Samurai, Swashbucklers, and Olympic Champions. He's very good on describing different fighting techniques.

Your 6'5 son would have reach going for him in a sword fight. If he could push his opponent's blade down towards the ground, he could move in for a punch or a devastating kick to a knee or groin.

Dorothy Dunnett's House of Niccolo series and Lymond Chronicles series takes place in the era that you're writing about. The books are loaded with sword fights and she is a master of description. It might be worth checking out.

And tell your son that men with swords get all of the cute girls!!!

This comes from a woman who used to fence.

Barb D said:

What could you do against a reasonably trained sword fighter, aiming to kill you? Are you dead before you've even started? Or can you do a fair amount of damage just by swinging it around?

Is your size an advantage or a disadvantage?

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Size means nothing when you don't know how to use it.

And a complete amatuer going up against a trained sword fighter?

If the goal was to kill one another, then yeah...the amatuer would be dead before his mind accepted it.

And after joining the SCA, I discovered that lesson very quickly. Even if they were rattan swords.

Rabe...

First strain on the body with a sword--other than someone running you through because you're clueless--is the wrist. You need to be able to bear the weight and the torc of a sword for how ever long the fight lasts. Two-handed or hand and a half bastards could reach 6' and be 12lb. If wielded right, they could cut through a man in armor. Shiavonnas and katanas are 2-3 lbs , epees & rapiers are even lighter. Flailing away will get you laughed at before you die :}

If the newbie ever played baseball, and the sword is two-edged, he could think--don't let go and whack away like you're going after a pinata who is pissed off, armed, and wants revenge.

Beach Bunny said:

I have studied Historical European Swordsmanship a little bit. First of all the sword is not that heavy. They weigh about three pounds. That's a myth which will. not. go. away.

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What's the myth? Bear in mind that not all swords were engineered to weigh three pounds; you have lighter and you have much heavier (some claymores weighed more than 25 pounds). Your specific sword may weigh in at three pounds, but not all swords did.

If your character is a trained wrestler, while they wouldn't know how to wield the sword properly. They should have the reflexes to deflect the other sword with the shield and get close enough to grapple their opponent. Grappling was a component of HES. In fact, binding their blade or disarming your opponent instead of trading blows was the smart thing to do.

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I agree with this aspect, albeit conditionally. Keep in mind that a reasonably skilled swordsman may be able to take advantage of that charge, and even do some damage if he wasn't grappled the right way.

Keep in mind that a distraction would be useful, from a flashbang to even dirt. Even tossing something at him as you rushed in should work, as the swordsman would need to deal with the object even as the wrestler rushed in. However, I would recommend at least some basic lessons in swordsmanship as quickly as possible....

FR

Can I just ad to what everyone has said by pointing out what should be obvious? People practice for a reason.

If an amateur with a blade could win against an experienced swordsman, then training with a sword would be pretty pointless, wouldn't it? In that kind of a world, you wouldn't need schools, army training or writing exercises -- because everyone would be just as good as everyone else, regardless.

Speaking as a swordsman- your tyro with a blade would have a decided disadvantage.

However, in his defense, let me point out that the world's greatest swordsman does not fear the second greatest swordsman, he fears the worst swordsman in the world- because he has no clue what the guy will do. Trained swordsmen learn to look for the little quirks that give away the backgorund of the training in their opponent, then use that information against them. If your tyro is reasonably intelligent and realizes he has no chance if he plays by the rules, then procedes to change the rules (i.e. CHEAT), he might have a chance. Not much of one, but a chance.

Ever see the fight scene in the dark inn in the early version of Prisoner of Zenda? Fighting with furniture rather than blades can be effective.

Jack

Beach Bunny said:

I have studied Historical European Swordsmanship a little bit. First of all the sword is not that heavy. They weigh about three pounds. That's a myth which will. not. go. away.

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The weight depends on the type of sword. A katana, for example, is a lighter weapon. A claymore, not so much. Whether it is a massive sword or not, holding it and using it for awhile will tire the wielder eventually. This is even more true if it's not being used properly.

One mistake that the beginner would probably make, and that the experienced sword fighter could probably count on him to make, is swinging his sword too broadly, using his shoulder muscles to direct the blow rather than moving his entire body. This would often leave him open for the experienced sword fighter to attack and would also broadcast his intentions.

A swordsman warrior would expect the unexpected or be dead quick, I think.

Your guy's best chance is to grovel like a wanker, cry like a baby, maybe vomit and when Inigo has turned away in disgust, then he runs like Sir Robin.

He who turns and runs away, might live to sneak around the crenellations and drop a rock on the other sucker's head. If he has an amulet of Luck +5 (but then who's going to read it?), then maybe the shield bash and grappling, but Inigo would see it coming. Skill almost always trumps luck. Giving the dishwasher a knife won't allow him to outshine a chef.

In an actual sword 'fight', obviously the inexperienced fighter is going to be at a severe disadvantage (at best). He's going to be dead long before the weight of the sword will tired him out.

I think the best bet for your 6'5" fighter is to simply rush his opponent, using his shield against the opponent's sword, and try to bash him to the ground.

Only chance: drop sword and run. Period.

I don't know about those suggestions for 'drop the sword and rush with the shield'.

Rushing a person is not as effective as most people think. One would imagine that the trained swordsman is used to *moving* and thus would be able to do a nice sidestep when the 'rush' came through. Now you have your overly large wannabe grappler with a whole side exposed for a good amount of time that the swordsman can use to his advantage. (and yes, even if that exposure is only a second or two, it's a good amount of time for a person who knows what he's doing.)

Hunkering behind the shield puts the wrestler at even more of a disadvantage.

So, here's the problem with the scenario. You have a grappler, who trains to bring people in close and take them down into all sorts of nice holds and moves. He does this by feints, dodges, speed and surprise. Now, you have a swordsman who is trained in what he does - which is slash, poke, prod and keep distance away from someone else's sword until they can get past that guard.

So who has the upper hand? All the swordsman really needs to do is to keep his body distant until he finds the openings. He may only get a slash or a poke here and there, but even here and there will be enough to win. A papercut may not be all that bad, but a thousand of them could kill.

I'm not really seeing any way for the untrained wrestler to win this competition unless the swordsman is a complete idiot.

And I'm sorry, I've seen/read too much of that type of fiction to want to continue with it anymore. I think my breaking point came with Peter David's fantasy books.

Rabe...

I am definitely not a trained swordsman, but I can interject some helpful history. I need to ask what you mean by "sword"? To us in the era of laser-guided missiles, swords seem quaint and primitive, but they were actually fairly sophisticated weapons and like all tools -- for weapons are just tools -- they were specifically designed for special circumstances, which is another way of saying they came in all shapes and sizes. I am suspecting that you are picturing something like a rapier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapier), but my point is that each sword is designed for a different situation, a different kind of combat, so how your character reacts (successfully) ultimately depends on exactly what kind of sword they're facing. Some varieties here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_swords

There's another problem with the "shield" scenario. If it's an arm mounted shield (where you slide your forearm through two metal brackets and use one as a handle) then not only has the "wrestler" sacrificed the use of one of his arms, but he's relying on a very small area of protection. Men today are generally larger than men centuries ago. (Most couldn't even fit into medieval fitted armor) Those shields are meant to be used in tandem with the motion of an offensive or defensive sword strike. Have your 6'5"in son stand to his full height with a large pizza box for protection and see how much is left uncovered.

If you do decide to do the fight, I'd definitely get your son and a friend to block it out for you. It'll help with the description.

For one of my fight scenes, I enlisted some help from my male friends. I gave them pizza and beer. They had great suggestions and much fun was had by all.