Israel Launches Gaza Attacks

William Haskins · Dec 27, 2008

palestinian death count nears 200, IDF jets in the skies over gaza; world leaders scramble to clear the smoke and get both sides back to the negotiating table.

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSLR1342320081227?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&sp=true

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LR167601.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7800985.stm

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LR160170.htm

Williebee · Dec 27, 2008

Israel in Gaza, Pakistan rattling at India, and here we are in the Middle East yet.

Meet the new year. Same as the old year....

RumpleTumbler · Dec 27, 2008

The hamas police chief was killed.

Does 'hamas police chief' strike anyone else as an oxymoron?

cethklein · Dec 27, 2008

Hamas is the new Arafat. When Arafat finally did the world a favor and died, there was a golden opportunity for the Palestinians to bring in a moderate voice. Instead they voted in Hamas. (although the legitimacy of that election is still questionable at best. When a guy comes to your house with a PKM and two hundred rounds of ammo flung over his shoulder and says "Hey we're having an election today, you'd better vote Hamas or your wife and daughters will become our new playthings" it's kind of hard for Hamas to lose.)

Pat~ · Dec 27, 2008

Here's one more AP story (1 hour ago).

From the article:

The air offensive followed weeks of intense Palestinian rocket and mortar fire on southern Israel, and Israeli leaders had issued increasingly tough warnings in recent days that they would not tolerate continued attacks.

Apparently a retaliatory attack for a break in ceasefire, including a Christmas Eve attack on Bethlehem (according to my husband...haven't read all the articles on this yet)...

William Haskins · Dec 27, 2008

yes, it wasn't a surprise in the slightest.

my hope is that civilians casualties are kept to a minimum.

Plot Device · Dec 27, 2008

Here's a video clip for you YouTubers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl6S4aZHzs0&watch_response

And a New York Daily News article.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_...israel_launches_air_strikes_on_gaza_more.html

rugcat · Dec 27, 2008

Williebee said:
Meet the new year. Same as the old year....

In the 1970's, I worked with an Israeli who while visiting the US had married an American, mostly to stay here and to avoid military service in Israel. He was mostly apolitical,( as much as possible for an Israeli) not a zealot by any means.

There was some apparent progress on a peace proposal, I don't remember which one, and I asked him if he thought peace was near, or even possible. It looked promising. His reply was matter of fact, not given angrily or sadly, or even assigning blame, but just in the manner of someone remarking that the sun rises in the east.

"Arabs and Jews have been killing each other for 2000 years. It will never change."

At the time I thought he was just cynical. Maybe I was just naive.

William Haskins · Dec 27, 2008

i would imagine it was during the negotiations for the camp david accords with begin, carter and sadat.

Ken · Dec 27, 2008

...Iran will be next if they don't watch their step.

fullbookjacket · Dec 27, 2008

rugcat said:
In the 1970's, I worked with an Israeli who while visiting the US had married an American, mostly to stay here and to avoid military service in Israel. He was mostly apolitical,( as much as possible for an Israeli) not a zealot by any means.

There was some apparent progress on a peace proposal, I don't remember which one, and I asked him if he thought peace was near, or even possible. It looked promising. His reply was matter of fact, not given angrily or sadly, or even assigning blame, but just in the manner of someone remarking that the sun rises in the east.

"Arabs and Jews have been killing each other for 2000 years. It will never change."

At the time I thought he was just cynical. Maybe I was just naive.

He's not only cynical, he's immoral. That kind of thinking is part of the problem.

Arabs and Jews killing each other is not like a law of physics. It's an attitudinal problem, and attitudes can change. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Zoombie · Dec 27, 2008

For hundreds of years, the French and the Brits fought and killed and exploited one another. Now they're economic allies.

So, its all a matter of figuring out how to break this cycle of violence, or at least pausing it so the moderates (who ARE the majority) can take control.

blacbird · Dec 27, 2008

Zoombie said:
For hundreds of years, the French and the Brits fought and killed and exploited one another. Now they're economic allies.

Who still detest each other. But, yeah, it's an improvement. We probably have the Germans to thank for that.

caw

blacbird · Dec 27, 2008

I can't see how this operation has any functional outcome without Israeli re-occupation of Gaza. That, of course, carries its own huge stinking bag of collateral issues, but without that, this attack comes across as nothing but revenge retaliation: 230 dead Palestinians, 1 dead Israeli. The history of revenge retaliation in human history is not promising. Google Lidice.

caw

MattW · Dec 27, 2008

blacbird said:
Who still detest each other. But, yeah, it's an improvement. We probably have the Germans to thank for that.

caw

So who do the Israelis and Palestinians both hate more than each other? The Dutch? Tongans? Sealanders?

dmytryp · Dec 28, 2008

blacbird said:
I can't see how this operation has any functional outcome without Israeli re-occupation of Gaza. That, of course, carries its own huge stinking bag of collateral issues, but without that, this attack comes across as nothing but revenge retaliation: 230 dead Palestinians, 1 dead Israeli. The history of revenge retaliation in human history is not promising. Google Lidice.

caw

Well, not exactly.
While I agree that there is a need for a ground operation, and Israel is already summoning reservists, there might be a benefit from the operation as it is. First -- the vast majority of thye 230 dead are Hamas members (yesterday I heard a figure of something like 15 out of 205 being civilians). What this op might accomplish is to inflict a serious damage upon Hamas and restore deterrence -- "you keep shooting, you pay dearly." Whether this will work without a major ground op is another matter.

dmytryp · Dec 28, 2008

http://www.theaugeanstables.com/200...-how-does-this-operation-rank-in-the-history/

This suggests something around a 80-90% military to civilian mortality rate as a result of Israeli airstrikes.

SC Harrison · Dec 28, 2008

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/28/gaza.israel.strikes/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

An Israeli army spokesman confirmed the airstrike. He said it targeted 40 tunnels on the border, which he said Hamas uses to smuggle weapons into Gaza.

Two tunnels were hit by missiles, eyewitnesses said, and others collapsed. Two people were killed.

Palestinians began trying to cross over into Egypt through a hole in the wall after the bombing, the witnesses said, but Egyptian police and Hamas gunmen began firing in an attempt to stop them.

Well that's just wonderful. Bombs are falling all around them, and when they try to escape to safety, people who are worried they'll become a "burden" and people who don't want to give up their human shields both shoot at them.

At least that's one thing that Israel, Hamas and the Arab League can agree on: the fate of Palestinian civilians is nowhere near the top of anybody's list of concerns.

William Haskins · Dec 28, 2008

they cease to have value as pawns and martyrs if they escape to safety.

RumpleTumbler · Dec 28, 2008

bam bam pow pow bam bam

Don't fuck with Israel.

pow pow bam bam

dmytryp · Dec 31, 2008

a wise decision

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3647680,00.html

Tuesday evening saw a first Grad rocket fired from the Gaza Strip land in Beersheba. The missile hit an empty kindergarten, causing damage to the building and to a nearby house. Thirty-four people were treated for shock at the Soroka Medical Center in the city.

The Beersheba Municipality announced Tuesday night that the southern city's schools would not be opened Wednesday morning, including special education institutions

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3648122,00.html

Brigadier-General Avraham Ben-David told reporters that in light of the rocket attacks on Beersheba, all planned events with over 100 participants will be cancelled, including New Year's Eve parties.

Referring to the rocket attack that severely damaged a Beersheba school earlier in the day, Ben-David said the IDF's decision to cancel classes in all of the Negev city's educational institutions "saved lives", adding that school will be out at least until the end of the week.

Godfather · Dec 31, 2008

blacbird said:
Who still detest each other. But, yeah, it's an improvement. We probably have the Germans to thank for that.

caw

the turks, actually.

Tuesday evening saw a first Grad rocket fired from the Gaza Strip land in Beersheba. The missile hit an empty kindergarten, causing damage to the building and to a nearby house. Thirty-four people were treated for shock at the Soroka Medical Center in the city.

since sept 2009, approximately 125 israeli children have been killed by palestinians and approximately 1050 palestinian children have been killed by israelis.

robeiae · Dec 31, 2008

Godfather said:
since sept 2009, approximately 125 israeli children have been killed by palestinians and approximately 1050 palestinian children have been killed by israelis.

Point?

Godfather · Dec 31, 2008

robeiae said:
Point?

it is neither one-sided, nor proportional

robeiae · Dec 31, 2008

Godfather said:
it is neither one-sided, nor proportional

And why--exactly--is proportionality a relevant issue?

Given the opportunity, do you suppose there are any Palestinians that would like to up the body count on the Israeli side? Certainly not Hamas...

Israel Launches Gaza Attacks

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