reverent atheist

AMCrenshaw

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I don't think this article is all that interesting; in fact, the article exhibits what I'd consider to be a grossly distorted regression to 1880s Nietzchean philosophy. It would have been better, in my opinion, to follow him more closely.

I found it amusing, for example, that the first in-text quote comes from a guy named Dean Over(uber)man. Is that made up? :)

It's easy, and rightly so, for a writer to say:
"I do not claim to know infallibly that the scientific method is the only or the best route to profound truths about the universe. But let those who think they possess a better one — divine revelation, infallible intuition, secure faith? — argue for it and demonstrate its efficacy and superiority."

But you have to realize the problem with God is that the best way he communicates is through action. That is, as Soren K. would have said, the praxis would reveal the theory. It's also easy for us to point, thus, to all the terrible practices of religion, and then to say: Ah Hah! False praxis must mean false theory!

I won't argue otherwise.

As for prayer, what conception of God does it imply? Either God constantly needs to have his attention directed and needs advice or else is vain and needs to be constantly flattered and groveled to.

What if God is the person of Christ within us? Prayer-- this talking to oneself, in my opinion-- becomes a way of communicating with the Christ inside. Do you think that Jesus Christ, by any account in the Bible, needed attention or flattering?

If, instead, God has characteristics so beyond human experience as to be incomprehensible to human beings — another familiar doctrine — how can anyone know that he needs or welcomes propitiation by prayer and ceremonies?

Then why not do it? That is, if it leads to ethical life (not saying it does!), why not? Inner spiritual practice is quite necessary for a lot of people to act morally. The communication with God, or, in the case of pantheism or atheism oneself, we have to remember that the objective is not always begging for things to go our way. Simone Weil, German mystic, had written once that prayer is the highest form of attention. She meant toward God, toward the state of existence, toward being. Would God (who has been equated also with love) not "want" this? Isn't that what Christ came to do-- liberate people from suffering, among other things? If we're referring to pantheism, it doesn't necessarily want anything except what we want for ourselves. Peace isn't "moral" in any absolute way, but as Kant would say...it makes sense.

Next comes a topic that it may be embarrassing to admit brooding about. Still, it is what religion — Christianity, anyway — is all about: salvation, getting to heaven.

...snippity...

Blaise Pascal's Wager.

That wager recommends worshiping God and trying to believe in him because nothing is lost if he does not exist, whereas disbelief in an actual God might bring eternal damnation.

I agree that Pascal's Wager convinced me just the opposite of what was intended. However, it should be remember that some people believe Jesus meant that the Kingdom of God was present now, and so we should act accordingly. A follower of Christ would see, then, no difference between his life (which was in God's hands) and life in heaven (which also is in God's hands). I think the deferred-heaven makes for nihilism. A present kingdom of God, from the vision of the Bible, is here and now-- immediacy, as I like to say, is the only way to eternity. I won't lie and say I believe that's the majority decision about Christianity, or about what it means to follow Jesus, but it does exist.



My last real nit about the piece is that it avoids Christianity's obsession with purity, the obsession with light, the obsession with dualism that their agnostic and nontheist counterparts really should be speaking out about.


Thanks for sharing, at any rate.

AMC
 

veinglory

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I read the whole thing and saw a set of loosely connected and familiar notions--and no real definition of the the term you raise. What would a reverant vs. non-reverent atheist be? Just a person who does or does not accept an irreducable amountof doubt (that is, the potential of differences between what they believe about 'God' and what is objectively true). I don't really see that as an important differentiation that relates specifically to atheism.
 

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I liked the idea that an atheist can feel comfortable with, or even enjoy, ritual or the idea of sacredness for its psychological benefits without buying into the beliefs. No more or less than that. I would agree with you about looking at Nietzsche, though.
 

veinglory

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I didn't really see that idea anywhere in the essay you linked to.

Nor am I sure what benefits the idea of sacredness would be if one did not belief anything was actually sacred. Or even that beleiving things are sacred does have psychological benefits over believing other things.
 

oscuridad

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Fair enough, I just like the idea that one can respect spaces for this kind of 'sacredness' without believing the dogma. Cathedrals can be stunning and calming places, for example, but you don't have to be a christian to feel that. Equally, standing in an aisle of Sandragon trees has a similar vibe.

Sometimes I wonder if, as Atheists, it is possible to throw the baby out with the bath water. Equally, I love the way that humans hold two or more contradictory ideas in their heads at the same time and have no problems with doing so.

I just thought it an interesting idea. Its not like it was my idea...
 

Ruv Draba

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The term 'revere' means 'awe or respect', and comes from the Latin vereri meaning "stand in awe of, fear".

Awe, fear and respect are not religious emotions; they're simply emotions that some people have about religion. I have yet to meet an atheist who doesn't experience awe, fear or respect at some time in his life.

The author's arguments for atheism are nothing new. I suspect that the real point of the paper is to make a social point rather than expound new thought on atheism. In a nutshell I read the point as: "I'm an atheist who respects existence, so don't assume that all atheists are arrogant."

But only bigots assume that all atheists are arrogant anyway. I don't think that the position requires defence.

Oh, and in response to Oscuridad, I always treat religious spaces with respect for the goodwill, peace, communion and culture of the people who make that space special. I can celebrate religious ceremonies as art, and I can happily listen to religious sermons for their human concerns -- though I may or may not agree with all the argumentation. (Then again, I doubt that the faithful always agree with it either.)
 
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veinglory

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Indeed. I am wondering what the 'reverant' would be compared against. I respect the faiths of others, I am very reverant of nature, the universe, reality itself, sentience, culture, art, friendship and family, and many other things. God per se just doesn't happen to be one of them although would never disrespect any person or groups that does belief in/honor Him. Just as I stand and look solemn when people around me pledge allegance to the flag--although as a non-American it would not be appropriate to actually join in. I respect what they are doing and why and the meaning it has for them.
 

Ruv Draba

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There are three things that I respect greatly in people of whatever creed: honesty, courage and generosity. I generally find at least one of these and often all three in people of sincere religious faith, and that respect carries over to their spaces, rites and customs too.

But my respect is not unconditional. I have no time for cowardly, self-interested liars, whatever beliefs they might use to prop up such attitudes. I don't consider belief or faith itself to be sacred -- what's sacred is genuine spirit of intent with which people engage their lives, and participate in community.

It's a postmodernist challenge to say, "What right has one to judge?" How can one judge honesty, courage, generosity?

People judge all the time -- it's how we get by. If adults can't judge moral issues on humanitarian grounds then they ought to change back into diapers. As social creatures of conscience it's our job to challenge one another -- how else will we learn? But we're socially accountable for said judgements, because we can get them wrong.

Adopting a posture of unwavering reverence for the universe strikes me as dishonest, cowardly and selfish. It's trying to outdo our fellows in feigned meekness. Existence is wonderful -- but not every moment, or we'd never read fiction. It's scary -- but we're not scared all the time or we'd never cross the street. We're not reverent all the time, and sometimes we're downright irreverent -- so why be sanctimonious about someone else's irreverence?

Show me any triumphalist community, for example -- whether theist or atheist -- and I'll show you a bunch of smug so-and-sos who forgot they were being reverent today. "Yay! We're saved and you're not." "Yay! Our mob is smarter than your lot." Uh-huh. We're all very reverent in our beliefs, aren't we?
 
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oscuridad

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Nothing should be unconditional in those Terms. How seamen relate to the Sea is a useful analogy - you can love the sea, fear it, hate it, enjoy it or be destroyed by it, but it demands your respect and caution whether you want to give them or not.
 

AMCrenshaw

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The Japanese Shinto religion has an aesthetic I can understand, with certain kami (power) evoking awe that often as frightening as it is beautiful. If I don't take it literally, and I don't, it seems like a quite accurate portrayal of how we now interact with the universe. Some things are just boring! Some things funny, some things blah blah blah, and some thing make us flat out cry. I find it interesting that 'gods' could be symbols for nothing more than how we interact with existence.

As far as it goes, Ruv, a Buddhist would say: "Health, sickness. Life, death. Reverent, irreverent? What's really the difference?" :)

AMC
 

Ruv Draba

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As far as it goes, Ruv, a Buddhist would say: "Health, sickness. Life, death. Reverent, irreverent? What's really the difference?" :)
Real (lay) Buddhists tend not to say such things, because their mothers will slap them with a celery-stalk and say 'tidy your room anyway'.