Can you tell by reading a novel if it was outlined? (Moved from Novels to Roundtable)

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BlueLucario

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I read novels occasionally, but for some reason I can identify if the novel was outlined or not? Can you?

If so, name a novel you readn and guess whether it was outlined or not. You don't have to be correct.

One for the money- No
Harry Potter- Yes
Tales of Beadle the Bard: :Shrug:
Twilight- No.
 

alleycat

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I have read novels that seemed rigid, so much that I could sense the writer planning everything out. I might have guessed the writer used an outline; but I could very well have been wrong.

Here's an interesting test if you haven't read many Stephen King books. I will give you two titles by King to read; one will be one he admits he used an outline in writing it, the other will be one where he didn't use an outline. Read a few chapters and see if you can tell which is which.
 
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ChaosTitan

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How do you know for sure Blue? After you guessed, did you then research the author and verify that they did, in fact, use an outline to write the novel? If not, then you're really just guessing.

If I enjoy a novel, I don't ultimately care if it's outlined or not.
 

ChaosTitan

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But my point is, you don't KNOW it's outline, until you do your research and find out for sure. You can guess it is, but unless the author is a known outliner, or they said so on their blog for all the world find out, it's just a guess on your part.
 

RobJ

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Outlining is something that is done, or not done, when producing the first draft. When you read a novel you're reading a later draft that has been through revision and editing and may be quite different.

Cheers,
Rob
 

Claudia Gray

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RobJ is right -- your outline helps you put something together, but by the time your editor is done with it, some things can change dramatically. I'd wager that the only novels you can tell for certain have been outlined are media tie-ins, and those only because authors must submit outlines to the licensors for approval.
 

Jerry B. Flory

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I outline by writing. If I were to read a story that is so stale and dry that I can see the outline has left no room for the characters to move under their own momentum then I'm probably not going to read it very long.
Same with SOC. There are some brilliant works where the writers threw some characters together and turned them loose. But, if someone were to be sloppy about it then I probably wouldn't read that very long either.
Either one requires a certain loosening and tightening of the reins at the right moments.
 

RobJ

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Or sometimes later: See Leonard Bishop's Dare to Be a Great Writer, where he says: "An outline is best done after the first draft."
Thanks. Probably makes it even less likely that you can tell from the finished novel what the process was.

Cheers,
Rob
 

DeleyanLee

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Why don't you read a book that someone here knows how was written (or wrote it) and make your guess and get it verified to see if you're correct.

My experience is that the reader can't tell and, for the most part, most readers don't know to care about such a thing. All that matters is that they enjoy the experience of reading.
 

NeuroFizz

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If Blue thinks it's been outlined, it must have been, I guess. Good empirical data there. And I guess there are no individuals on this globe who can think out well organized and complex plots without putting down some kind shorthand sketch of the story. And, of course we've already heard many times over how outlining constrains creativity. Excuse me--I have to get my hip boots and a nose plug. The crap in here is getting too deep.
 

KTC

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This is ridiculous. There is no way on earth to know if a novel is outlined or not. It would be an impossible thing to know. End of discussion.
 

Stunted

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I agree with Twilight... even more so for the piece of &^%$ Breaking Dawn.

I think I read somewhere that the later Twilight books actually were outlined.
 

The Lonely One

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Or sometimes later: See Leonard Bishop's Dare to Be a Great Writer, where he says: "An outline is best done after the first draft."

caw

I've heard this from John Dufresne as well. Good advice, I'd say.
 

Bubastes

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Both Tess Gerritsen and Michael Palmer write tightly-plotted medical thrillers. Can you tell which one outlines and which one doesn't? Or do they both outline? Or both not?

The answer can be easily verified, by the way.
 
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Jerry B. Flory

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I've read "Critical Judgment" by Palmer and if I had to guess I'd say outlined, though it seems a little far-fetched. The end seems a little wing it but for the most part it's pretty tight.
 
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Read Minette Walters' novels. They're so tight you'd think they were outlined but she doesn't know herself whodunnit until she writes the relevant chapter.

So not all mystery/thriller/suspense novels are outlined, as has been suggested in another thread. Even genre is irrelevant. It depends on the author and what they feel like doing.

I bet some of my stuff reads like it was outlined going by Blue's judgements...I can start writing something and then the penny drops, or I write a conversation or a scene, and it fits so well, even I think, "Wow, where did that come from?"
 

Shweta

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I've certainly written extremely tight short stories, which seem outlined, without outlining..

And I've written a few wandering short stories (within stories within stories) with outlines -- the outlines let me wander and show m the way home.

Dunno at the novel level. Though if Catherynne M Valente's Orphan's Tales books were not outlined in some form, I'm... giving up, I think, cause I couldn't manage half that with an outline :)

Anyway, since this is a general discussion and not really specific to writing novels, I'm a port it to the roundtable,
 
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echnos

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One person's outline is another's skeletal framework. Some do, some don't, some fantastic novels are, some aren't...and I imagine, for every novel that one thinks they can proclaim THAT'S DEFINITELY OUTLINED! (as if it were a bad thing or something) there will be plenty that actually weren't.

Why does it matter in the first place? Or, why is NOT outlining a bad thing? I'm curious.

To outline or not to outline...should only be the author's business. :)
 

maestrowork

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It depends on the skills of the writer, but I definitely can sense that some novels are seriously outlined (and when the characters are forced to follow certain plot line when it doesn't make sense, or doesn't feel "right"), or when a novel is so organic that it feels out of control (characters going each and every way without focus).

But it's not the problem with outline or writing organically, per se. It has more to do with the writer's ability and discipline.
 

tehuti88

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I honestly can't tell if something is outlined, and for the most part don't really care.

I do sometimes sense, however, that a writer isn't quite as good at putting together a coherent plot as other writers may be. For example, I read a fantasy trilogy and the first two books seemed tightly plotted but the third was kind of...meh. Meandery. It was still good and had plot but didn't seem as strong as the first two.

Could I say that the writer used an outline for the first two and not for the last? No, because I honestly can't tell. Some people can write well without one, and some people can't write well even with one, so I really can't judge, not without knowing the author's personal abilities.

I can only speak with certainty from PERSONAL experience with my own stories. I fully outlined one novel and it's very stale to me, quite forced. I don't outline most of my other stuff and it just seems to flow better...but it quite possibly meanders somewhat. *shrug* Only another reader could give me an objective opinion on what seems outlined or not, but it would just be their opinion.

In the end I don't much care except that a story is written well.
 
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