Critique Services Unethical?

JRTurner · Dec 2, 2008

Hey everyone

I just had a long conversation with a well respected author and he mentioned that all critique services (which he says are no different than book doctors) are unethical because they take money away from the writer, instead of the money going to the author.

I understand the smarmy book doctors out there that promise NYTimes Best Sellers for outrages amount of money and how *that* is unethical, but I was surprised to hear that *any* critique service is considered unethical within the industry.

So I thought I'd bring the question here, where I often go to do background checks and learn the truth about the industry. I know that not everyone shares his view--but is it a common belief within the publishing world?

Thanks for any insight you can give me on this!
Warmly
Jenny

NicoleMD · Dec 2, 2008

Just because people charge for a service doesn't make them evil. It just means they like eating and having a roof over their head or having a couple extra bucks in their pocket to buy nice shiny things. I get the feeling that there's still some stigma around it, though. (in the US, at least) Maybe less so than there used to be. Sure there are scammers out there. That's why you have to do your research. There are plenty of free alternatives for writers as well. Like this site, for instance.

Nicole

willfulone · Dec 2, 2008

I do not think that being an editor or critter (in and of itself) for a fee is an unethical practice.

It is a job to those who do it and offer legitimate feedback for money paid.

It is a service. And, just like any other job or service, those that make a business of it should be paid for their time. They gotta eat too.

And, if they are putting forth the time/effort and feedback, within reason of what they charge, I do not see it as unethical for them to set up shop and do so in order to select what they prefer to read/work on. Rather than taking employment with a pub house or agent and being forced to read stuff they have no interest in.

If one is worried about paying out - they can make use of this forum (or others like it) where free crits are available.

Free, on this type of forum ,does not mean lessor value/input in a crit than what one would get if they pay someone. Although it is a smaller scale crit for time/space, etc. And, paying for a crit does not ensure the value/input is better for money spent on it.

I do not think a blanket "unethical" applies just for the service being out there and offered for a fee.

Christine

Dale Emery · Dec 3, 2008

JRTurner said:
I just had a long conversation with a well respected author and he mentioned that all critique services (which he says are no different than book doctors) are unethical because they take money away from the writer, instead of the money going to the author.

The direction of money flow is a lame standard for judging ethics. By that logic, office supply stores, post offices, and agents are unethical.

Was there more to the author's ethical standard than simply the direction of money flow? Or more to the situation being judged (e.g. a publisher demanding that an author use a given paid critique service)?

Dale

caseyquinn · Dec 3, 2008

I think there are many unqualified people who take money from authors and call what they produce editting services. There are always scams in every business, but these scammers should not lable the entire service of freelance editors

scarletpeaches · Dec 3, 2008

Dale Emery said:
The direction of money flow is a lame standard for judging ethics. By that logic, office supply stores, post offices, and agents are unethical...

In those cases, the writer gets something for his money that he couldn't otherwise get for free.

JRTurner · Dec 3, 2008

Thanks everyone for your great thoughts!

I pretty much feel the same way. I've seen successful authors auction off critiques for charities and have used the criteria of gaining a critique when I choose which contests I'll spend my money on--not quite the same thing as using a critique service straight up, but I know how invaluable that was to me when I was earning my writing chops.

I think what threw me for the loop was the insistance that this is an *industry* attitude--that NY publishers, editors, etc. frown on any critique service, etc.

My arguments included the huge sums paid by those who get a Masters in creative writing, or those who pay for online courses to learn--which in essence is paid-for critique of their writing. Of course, these services/schools etc. need to be vetted and checked (which is why i think so many of us writers truly appreciate the work Absolute Write contributors do to keep the writing masses informed.)

Dale Emery said:
The direction of money flow is a lame standard for judging ethics. By that logic, office supply stores, post offices, and agents are unethical.

Was there more to the author's ethical standard than simply the direction of money flow? Or more to the situation being judged (e.g. a publisher demanding that an author use a given paid critique service)?

Dale

Great points, Dale

I think his position is that a writer should learn on his or her own, that he sees getting a paid-for critique as tantamount to hiring a ghost writer to do the work for them. I believe that self-editing can only take a new writer so far--that they need that professional, helpful critique to understand concepts and nuances that are difficult to learn simply by reading how-to books.

To me, it's the same as trying to learn Spanish by reading an English-to-Spanish dictionary--you might memorize the words, but the sentence structures and very different grammatic constructions will be impossible to learn without some help from a person fluent in conversational Spanish.

It was the shock of hearing that the industry itself frowned on (legitimate) critique services across the board that compelled me to come in and ask the question. Admittedly, I'm not keeping my ear to the ground as much as I did before I was first published--mainly because putting out two books a year has taken all my focus. I truly should start paying more attention.

Anyhoo, thanks everyone for their thoughts! I love this place!

Warmly,
Jenny

scarletpeaches · Dec 3, 2008

JRTurner said:
...I believe that self-editing can only take a new writer so far--that they need that professional, helpful critique to understand concepts and nuances that are difficult to learn simply by reading how-to books...

That's what editors are for.

waylander · Dec 3, 2008

JRTurner said:
Hey everyone

I just had a long conversation with a well respected author and he mentioned that all critique services (which he says are no different than book doctors) are unethical because they take money away from the writer, instead of the money going to the author.

I understand the smarmy book doctors out there that promise NYTimes Best Sellers for outrages amount of money and how *that* is unethical, but I was surprised to hear that *any* critique service is considered unethical within the industry.

So I thought I'd bring the question here, where I often go to do background checks and learn the truth about the industry. I know that not everyone shares his view--but is it a common belief within the publishing world?

Thanks for any insight you can give me on this!
Warmly
Jenny

Just plain wrong

Cybernaught · Dec 3, 2008

I've never seen the point of paying for something that you can get for free. Isn't that why we're all here?

Momento Mori · Dec 3, 2008

JRTurner:
My arguments included the huge sums paid by those who get a Masters in creative writing, or those who pay for online courses to learn--which in essence is paid-for critique of their writing.

I can't speak for on-line courses, but I can say that the MA I'm doing in Creative Writing is not a glorified paid-for critique of my manuscript. Obviously, MAs and MFAs vary from school to school and programme to programme, but in my experience the focus has been on thinking about different forms and structures of writing in order to work out what works for me and what can be used in future manuscripts.

Yes, there are critique sessions (workshops and tutorials) but these are held while you are in the progress of writing your manuscript, and are as much intended to help flag potential problems and areas that may require further work as you move to them as they are to critique the writing actually submitted.

JRTurner:
I think his position is that a writer should learn on his or her own, that he sees getting a paid-for critique as tantamount to hiring a ghost writer to do the work for them.

I agree with your response to this. There are some lucky writers who just "have it" - they can write, they can instinctively know what's working and what's working - they just get how to do it perfectly from the first word on the page. It's okay to hate those people. The rest of us can all benefit from having a second pair of eyes looking at our work.

Although I know of a couple of reputable crit companies in the UK, I'd personally be wary of using them (not least because I've got a number of sources for free crits in RL and on-line). That's only because a professional crit (like a 'free' crit) is only as good as the changes you're willing to make and should never be viewed as a guarantee of publication, i.e. that if you make those exact changes then you will definitely be picked up by an agent and editor. And in any event, as scarletpeaches said, editors will end up requiring further changes above and beyond what you've made following a crit.

So basically, I don't think paid for crits are unethical, but they should be researched and it will be better on your wallet to go through the free alternatives first.

MM

JRTurner · Dec 3, 2008

Cybernaught said:
I've never seen the point of paying for something that you can get for free. Isn't that why we're all here?

Oh, most definitely, I was in a critique group for six years and I owe them a lot! Without them, I would never have made it on my own.

Unfortunately, there are some *really* bad critique groups out there that turn otherwise very talented people off from ever joining one again. It's so sad to see that (which is why I always steer people toward good ones if I get the chance.)

Other times, though, there's a problem with the level of experience of those in the group. I think it's awesome that they can support each other and work toward goals together (that's what my group was like at first) but sometimes, it's hard to know if everyone is just beginning, if all the advice and knowledge to be had is actually being gained.

I think that's why, even though I had a wonderful and close-knit family of writers in my group--I still sought out contests where a critique from a published author was offered as part of the contest. (Or one of those "judges forms" where they can check off areas that need improvement, etc.)

So yes--absolutely, critique groups are great! I just wanted to be clear about my feelings there and make sure I didn't do a poor job and give a mistaken impression that I believe they have no value.

Warmly,
Jenny

JRTurner · Dec 3, 2008

Momento: I totally agree about going the free route first. Especially if you're still learning the very basics. I think paid-for critiques should only ever be considered when you've exhausted all your free options and are still struggling with how to strengthen weak areas you're aware of, but can't pinpoint. (I used to struggle hard with showing deep emotion because I feared coming off melodramatic, that sort of thing.)

I also totally agree that if one ever decides to get a paid-for critique, they should thoroughly research the credibility of the person doing the critique, not just for know-how, but also what genre(s) they specialize in. Sending an excerpt from your horror novel to a person specializing in sweet, inspirational romances probably isn't the best idea.

Momento Mori said:
I can't speak for on-line courses, but I can say that the MA I'm doing in Creative Writing is not a glorified paid-for critique of my manuscript. Obviously, MAs and MFAs vary from school to school and programme to programme, but in my experience the focus has been on thinking about different forms and structures of writing in order to work out what works for me and what can be used in future manuscripts.

Yes, there are critique sessions (workshops and tutorials) but these are held while you are in the progress of writing your manuscript, and are as much intended to help flag potential problems and areas that may require further work as you move to them as they are to critique the writing actually submitted.

To the above, I just wanted to apologize if I came across as minimalizing the rigors of earning an MA or an MFA in my original thought here. I didn't intend to make it seem like all one got was a paid-for critique there--though I see how I worded it poorly and that is how it came across.

What I meant was more about the money angle, in accordance with what was said about Staples and office supplies. Going to college/university for accredited courses you have to pay for is another example of how money flows away from the writer--but is still very ethical and well respected.

That was the purpose of raising that point and I did a pretty crappy job of showing that here. Sorry!

If anything, I truly wish I had the ability (finances and 3 kids who still need me too much) to devote to furthering my education--so I truly wasn't knocking it at all.

Thanks for your thoughts too!!

Warmly,
Jenny

scarletpeaches · Dec 3, 2008

I've been incredibly lucky with the beta reader I've found through AW. And another lady wants to read my manuscript when it's done so yay!

I've heard it said you should never ask friends, but that depends on the friend.

thethinker42 is both a writer and a reader, plus, she's ballsy enough to tell me if she thinks what I've written is crap.

The way I work it is, first drafts are all about getting the story out of my head and on paper, so if she reads the first draft I want to know if the story's good. Try to ignore typos, continuity errors, repetition and the like (although you can bring it to my attention if you choose).

Second or third draft read-throughs, I want to know about mistakes in my use of language or finer areas which could be improved, because by the time we get to the second or third draft, the story's okay; it's the details which need attention.

Plus, thethinker42 sends me photos of Colin Farrell as a lure to finish each chapter, so everyone's happy.

Phaeal · Dec 3, 2008

Dale Emery said:
The direction of money flow is a lame standard for judging ethics. By that logic, office supply stores, post offices, and agents are unethical.

Dale

Yup, and unethical pigs, too, those blasted publishers and booksellers who dare to ask for some recompense for their efforts!

This author's attitude boggles me. No one's forcing a writer to got to an editorial service. So long as the editor gives value, of course he should be paid!

scarletpeaches · Dec 3, 2008

Publishers and booksellers give something in return for their money.

Sure, you could say paid editors do too, but why pay for someone's opinion when:

a) You can get it for free and
b) You'll get an editor all to yourself when you go through the publication process anyway.

waylander · Dec 3, 2008

Cybernaught said:
I've never seen the point of paying for something that you can get for free. Isn't that why we're all here?

I've had a paid critique from a top class book doctor. You'll have to take my word for it that the difference in the quality of critique from that against what I got from a good critique group is considerable.

IceCreamEmpress · Dec 3, 2008

Oh, yes, all of us professional editors are completely unethical. How dare we charge money for our years of experience and training!

You know who else is unethical? Professional house cleaners. Why charge money for something you can get for free, right? Because everyone can clean their own house.

And those tailors--the nerve of them! People can alter their own clothing.

Chefs? Don't make me laugh! After all, everyone knows how to cook.

As for the Nabisco company--well, I'm amazed they haven't been shut down already. Cookie recipes are readily available on the Internet and in libraries, after all.

jennontheisland · Dec 3, 2008

A lot of this seems to be focussing on individuals who want money for critiques, which IMO is fine if they can find someone willing to pay for it, but what about publishers who offer critiques for cash?

scarletpeaches · Dec 3, 2008

IceCreamEmpress said:
Oh, yes, all of us professional editors are completely unethical. How dare we charge money for our years of experience and training!

You know who else is unethical? Professional house cleaners. Why charge money for something you can get for free, right? Because everyone can clean their own house.

And those tailors--the nerve of them! People can alter their own clothing.

Chefs? Don't make me laugh! After all, everyone knows how to cook.

As for the Nabisco company--well, I'm amazed they haven't been shut down already. Cookie recipes are readily available on the Internet and in libraries, after all.

I wouldn't pay for a chef to cook me a meal if I knew someone would be along to my house later to cook it for free.

IceCreamEmpress · Dec 3, 2008

JRTurner said:
I think what threw me for the loop was the insistance that this is an *industry* attitude--that NY publishers, editors, etc. frown on any critique service, etc.

That was his insistence. It is simply NOT an industry attitude that all critique services, freelance editors, and book doctors are unethical/scam artists/wastes of money/blah blah blah.

Like most freelance editors, I get work from literary agents whose clients' manuscripts need editing before they're sent out to publishing houses.

I can't speak to critique service, because that's not work I do, but I can tell you that freelance editors and book doctors are considered valued colleagues by agents and publishers.

Your friend is sadly misinformed.

IceCreamEmpress · Dec 3, 2008

scarletpeaches said:
I wouldn't pay for a chef to cook me a meal if I knew someone would be along to my house later to cook it for free.

And yet, lots of people do go to restaurants, preferring to have chefs cook for them rather than asking their friends to join a cooking club, or just doing it themselves.

I think there is a parallel here with the same people for whom professional editing feels like a better choice than trading editing/critique services with other writers, or than self-editing:

a) people who don't have the time to do it themselves, or to trade services with another writer, and for whom the investment of money rather than time seems like a good choice;

b) writers who have particular needs (English as a Second Language writers, for instance); like the person with special dietary needs who finds that the average cooking club may not accommodate those, but an experienced professional can;

c) people who are looking for someone who brings years of experience to the table (so to speak) and don't mind paying for that skill.

I am 100% in favor of people learning to edit their own work, and learning to use writers' groups and beta/critique/edit trades.

But that's just not for everyone. Not everyone wants to edit their own work, just like not everyone wants to cook their own dinner (or swap nights cooking with a friend).

Also, please note that I never promote my own services in my posts; I don't even give my name. This isn't me touting for business, this is me being pissed off at the dismissal of my entire profession as unethical and unnecessary. It's not.

It may well be unnecessary to you, and more power to you! Self-editing is one of the key elements of a career writer's toolkit. But not everyone who writes a book wants to be a career writer, you know.

Dale Emery · Dec 3, 2008

JRTurner said:
I think his position is that a writer should learn on his or her own, that he sees getting a paid-for critique as tantamount to hiring a ghost writer to do the work for them.

Hmmm. So free critiques (from beta readers or critique groups) would be tantamount to asking a ghost writer to do the work for free?

Dale

IceCreamEmpress · Dec 3, 2008

jennontheisland said:
A lot of this seems to be focussing on individuals who want money for critiques, which IMO is fine if they can find someone willing to pay for it, but what about publishers who offer critiques for cash?

That's completely unethical. Seriously, that's not the business of a publisher. If you send your manuscript to a critique service, you're looking for a paid-for critique; if you send your manuscript to a publisher, you're looking for publication. Offering paid-for critiques is a bait-and-switch.

Phaeal · Dec 3, 2008

Pro bono betas are great, but it's a rare one who will put the kind of time into a reading that a truly pro professional will. I've done a number of pro bono novel betas, line by line, and it takes an astronomical amount of time. I can only do it now for a couple of people who have proven themselves to be equally diligent for no pay. I feel blessed to have found them and to have this barter system to turn to for help. Those who can't find such beta readers and who have the money to hire a competent professional should feel free to do so without stigma. Caveat emptor is, as always, the motto to follow.

As for editing being the job of the publisher's editors, well. If you put unquestioning faith in them to correct all your book's rickets, you'd do well to read Thomas McCormack's The Fiction Editor, the Novel and the Novelist. Given the number of hats a pub's editor must wear, I wonder how any of them do any actual "editing." Then, as McCormack points out, there's the wide variation in skill from editor to editor.

And...if you never get the book in good enough shape to get an agent, or the agent is unable to sell it because it needs editing NOW, that book won't ever even see a publisher's editor for a "free" editing.

Critique Services Unethical?

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