Dad and I

maxmordon · Nov 18, 2008

I love my father, I deeply do and even he wasn't there most of my life he is doing a great effort now to be a constant in my life. But there is something we always clash. Religion.

He has his set of beliefs which I respect and admire and I have my set of beliefs but what is so frustrating to me is that he continue to smirk my beliefs with snarky comments, some of them which I find highly offensive and I am not someone easy to offend; besides I think respect and acceptance is the base of coexistence in harmony...

I wasn't sure if I should post this here or on Christian, the mod can change it if it consider it necessary.

fullbookjacket · Nov 18, 2008

What are the beliefs in question?

maxmordon · Nov 18, 2008

Silly me, I forgot to mention it. I am a Catholic and he is an Atheist.

emandem · Nov 18, 2008

I wouldn't discuss religion with him if I were you...It's not worth sacrificing your relationship. If he pushes the conversation, smile and change the subject. Tell him you value your relationship with him too much to argue over religion. Refuse to be around him during the times he is insulting your beliefs and he'll get the message!

He'll prob eventually admire your self-control and maturity when you refuse to descend to an argumentative level. Give him time.

JoNightshade · Nov 18, 2008

Max, sounds like we're in a similar situation. Or at least, I used to be in your situation. I'm a Christian and my dad is... well, we'll call him atheist or agnostic... mostly I guess he was just antagonistic.

Growing up we had a lot of conflicts in my house over religion, and it caused a lot of pain for both of us. Now that I'm out of the house and have matured beyond my teenage years, I respect and value my father just like you do.

I'm not sure what advice to give you other than to, first of all, not try to argue anything with him. Trying to argue your side is just going to keep the conflict going. Be secure enough in your beliefs to back off, if that's an issue.

Second, try to express to him how much it hurts you that he sneers at your beliefs. Say that you don't expect him to agree with you, but you believe this deeply and that's not going to change. Ask him to accept that, and in return you'll accept him.

And after that, just love him. I think you'll find that in time, the issue will cool off enough that you'll be able to discuss it calmly, without getting all irritated with one another. I'm starting to get to that point with my dad right now. And that's really where dialogue takes place.

Afterthought: If your dad is really antagonistic and disparaging, consider that he might be coming from some sort of really bad experience with organized religion. (I don't know what happened to my dad, but I know he was abused as a child and I know simply walking into a church makes him break into a cold sweat.) The reaction might be not so much towards you as it is towards what he perceives religion to be. And because he loves you, he wants to protect you from that.

fullbookjacket · Nov 18, 2008

Father/son relationships are seldom easy. Fathers put pressure on sons to be just like them, and sons resist.

My old man was (is) a domineering sort. I'm the atheist, however, and he's the Christian. I basically ignore any religious discussions with him...it's the only way to avoid conflict.

Ruv Draba · Nov 18, 2008

Alas, but we can't choose our family. We want them to nourish us, approve of us, celebrate us, encourage us -- because often they know us best. They can't always do that; and sometimes they can but won't.

If it's any consolation, I think that your situation must be fairly unsual, Max. While getting smirks is rather annoying, at least (I hope) it doesn't break your heart.

We get a lot of stories here of atheists in religious families (the more likely occurrence perhaps because of the relative proportions of atheists and theists) -- suffering violence and coercion, families staging 'interventions', being cut out of wills or excommunication from families and communities. The same must also happen to theists from time to time, who change denominations or faiths.

I certainly hope that your father doesn't do anything like that, but meanwhile when you're getting irritated, please spare a thought for those who do suffer such things.

And if it's any consolation, it may help to consider that peoples' minds may form differently. The emphases that we give emotional and physical evidence in decision-making may be architecturally different in different people. It may be that your father is literally incapable of seeing what you get from your faith; just as perhaps it may be hard for you to see what he objects to in it.

I also suspect that when many people argue over religion, it's not just religion they're arguing over. It might be respect, affection, independence, belonging... and other things that are human concerns rather than simply ideological concerns. Sometimes if you deal with those differences, ideological differences become unimportant.

I've long since learned not to discuss politics with my father -- or even listen to him. He's incapable of looking at more than one side of these things, and he loves indulging in a good rant. Even when I agree with him, it's very unpleasant to listen to; so if he starts that conversation I excuse myself from it and we get on fine.

snook · Nov 30, 2008

Agree to disagree, if he has any logical inclinations he will agree to it, if he respects you at all. Whatever you do, DO NOT stop any discussions among yourselves, it will lead to a stop of all discussions. Be open minded and peer through his eyes and he will probably do the same.

maxmordon · Nov 30, 2008

emandem said:
I wouldn't discuss religion with him if I were you...It's not worth sacrificing your relationship. If he pushes the conversation, smile and change the subject. Tell him you value your relationship with him too much to argue over religion. Refuse to be around him during the times he is insulting your beliefs and he'll get the message!

He'll prob eventually admire your self-control and maturity when you refuse to descend to an argumentative level. Give him time.

I don't discuss religion about him, but he likes to push the envelope at times. He adores to discuss his ideas with others, specially on controversial topics and in my expirience he has a bit of an insight of "everyone is a good and balanced person as long they agree with me" mentality. Not just in religion but pretty much in everything.

With me, for example, he told me that "I could do whatever I want. But if he told me something it was an order I had to obey" and bits like that...

maxmordon · Nov 30, 2008

JoNightshade said:
Max, sounds like we're in a similar situation. Or at least, I used to be in your situation. I'm a Christian and my dad is... well, we'll call him atheist or agnostic... mostly I guess he was just antagonistic. Growing up we had a lot of conflicts in my house over religion, and it caused a lot of pain for both of us. Now that I'm out of the house and have matured beyond my teenage years, I respect and value my father just like you do.

I'm not sure what advice to give you other than to, first of all, not try to argue anything with him. Trying to argue your side is just going to keep the conflict going. Be secure enough in your beliefs to back off, if that's an issue.

Second, try to express to him how much it hurts you that he sneers at your beliefs. Say that you don't expect him to agree with you, but you believe this deeply and that's not going to change. Ask him to accept that, and in return you'll accept him.

And after that, just love him. I think you'll find that in time, the issue will cool off enough that you'll be able to discuss it calmly, without getting all irritated with one another. I'm starting to get to that point with my dad right now. And that's really where dialogue takes place.

Afterthought: If your dad is really antagonistic and disparaging, consider that he might be coming from some sort of really bad experience with organized religion. (I don't know what happened to my dad, but I know he was abused as a child and I know simply walking into a church makes him break into a cold sweat.) The reaction might be not so much towards you as it is towards what he perceives religion to be. And because he loves you, he wants to protect you from that.

I think it has to do with his mother; my grandfather is an atheist or agnostic and so are his siblings (both grandfather and my father) but my grandmother (his mother) who is Catholic was pretty much the authority around the house of my rebellious father (and his brothers) who did things ranging from tying himself to a buch of skateboards to roll downhill to destill moonshine in the backyard and running from home and being arrested several times, all before he was 20...

So yeah, I think is the Christianity=Authority-type of mind...

I think he's also an anarchist but I am sure, I know he's quite left-wing... (as the rest of my father's family)

maxmordon · Nov 30, 2008

Ruv Draba said:
Alas, but we can't choose our family. We want them to nourish us, approve of us, celebrate us, encourage us -- because often they know us best. They can't always do that; and sometimes they can but won't.

If it's any consolation, I think that your situation must be fairly unsual, Max. While getting smirks is rather annoying, at least (I hope) it doesn't break your heart.

We get a lot of stories here of atheists in religious families (the more likely occurrence perhaps because of the relative proportions of atheists and theists) -- suffering violence and coercion, families staging 'interventions', being cut out of wills or excommunication from families and communities. The same must also happen to theists from time to time, who change denominations or faiths.

I certainly hope that your father doesn't do anything like that, but meanwhile when you're getting irritated, please spare a thought for those who do suffer such things.

And if it's any consolation, it may help to consider that peoples' minds may form differently. The emphases that we give emotional and physical evidence in decision-making may be architecturally different in different people. It may be that your father is literally incapable of seeing what you get from your faith; just as perhaps it may be hard for you to see what he objects to in it.

I also suspect that when many people argue over religion, it's not just religion they're arguing over. It might be respect, affection, independence, belonging... and other things that are human concerns rather than simply ideological concerns. Sometimes if you deal with those differences, ideological differences become unimportant.

I've long since learned not to discuss politics with my father -- or even listen to him. He's incapable of looking at more than one side of these things, and he loves indulging in a good rant. Even when I agree with him, it's very unpleasant to listen to; so if he starts that conversation I excuse myself from it and we get on fine.

Thank you, Dub. I have always enjoyed your posts.

maxmordon · Nov 30, 2008

fullbookjacket said:
Father/son relationships are seldom easy. Fathers put pressure on sons to be just like them, and sons resist.

That's pretty much what I am feeling. Not only in this, but in general. See, I am going to college soon and everytime I go to visit him (he lives in a larger city) I feel like he's trying to making me some substitute of him to take his place while he's gone. Studying in his same university (a very good one, btw), giving me his apartment, telling me his plans for my future (which mirrors his life) pretty much showing me his path in life... to follow it...

StephanieFox · Dec 1, 2008

You could try acting interested in the subject matter (atheism) as an intellectual persuit. You can answer his questions (or statements – treat them all like questions) also in an intellectual way. It's comparative religion. You are guys, you probably don't want to talk feelings. I think he needs you to look up to him. Do that. You don't have to agree. Tell him you admire his thought process in coming to his conclusions. This is probably not about religion at all. It's about him wanting your respect. Tell him you are proud to be his son.

I could be wrong. I was never a son and I realize that the father/son connection is tricky.

maxmordon · Dec 14, 2008

StephanieFox said:
You could try acting interested in the subject matter (atheism) as an intellectual persuit. You can answer his questions (or statements – treat them all like questions) also in an intellectual way. It's comparative religion. You are guys, you probably don't want to talk feelings. I think he needs you to look up to him. Do that. You don't have to agree. Tell him you admire his thought process in coming to his conclusions. This is probably not about religion at all. It's about him wanting your respect. Tell him you are proud to be his son.

I could be wrong. I was never a son and I realize that the father/son connection is tricky.

I see your point, Steph. Monday I am leaving to spend two weeks with my father's side family and him as well. So perhaps we could settle some things.

zornhau · Dec 15, 2008

(I quite like threads like this because they are good source material for writing atheists writing relgious characters.)

Speaking as an atheist parent: He may well be afraid that religion has/will take you away from him, or that it will hamstring you in some practical and emotional ways and that he has failed you.

Do you both still see the world and morality the same way? If so, you might want to explore that.

It's also possible that he enjoys a good debate/verbal scrap and doesn't realise how much it pushes you apart. If so, you should just tell him to, "Shut the #### up about religion and talk about something else." Does he have any religious friends who are really just sparring partners?

Finally... well, this is the Atheist forum and I'm an atheist. From where I'm standing, religion is mostly - to put it nicely - a parasitic meme. Not all activities to do with religion are pointless, but ultimately, it's a waste of brain space. I myself would feel depressed and a failure if my children embraced any sort of religion. However, I''d fight tooth and nail to maintain the relationship.

donroc · Dec 15, 2008

Max, you can always remind him of Pascal's Wager, if he has a sense of humor.

KTC · Dec 15, 2008

maxmordon said:
Silly me, I forgot to mention it. I am a Catholic and he is an Atheist.

If you get along in every other area of your lives, do what they say not to do: Don't discuss religion. Just come to an agreement that you will not discuss it with each other...and ask him to respect your decision while you respect his.

Flapdoodle · Dec 17, 2008

maxmordon said:
That's pretty much what I am feeling. Not only in this, but in general. See, I am going to college soon and everytime I go to visit him (he lives in a larger city) I feel like he's trying to making me some substitute of him to take his place while he's gone. Studying in his same university (a very good one, btw), giving me his apartment, telling me his plans for my future (which mirrors his life) pretty much showing me his path in life... to follow it...

Is this a US cultural thing? I see US films/TV episodes where the plot revolves around a Father trying to get his son to go down the same career path as him, same university, etc. Does this really happen in a big way? I don't know anyone over here who had this happen to them! Most parents in the UK try to persuade their kids to not do what they did!

Sarpedon · Dec 18, 2008

May I ask where this difference in opinion arose? How did you come to be a Catholic?

I became an atheist, ironically enough, teaching sunday school. My father blamed my college education, even though the change predated the college, for the most part.

What is your mother?

(forgive me if I'm being too personal and too Freud like)

maxmordon · Dec 26, 2008

I was mostly raised by my mother's family, Sarpedon, which is quite traditional though mostly nominal Catholics while my father's family is a mix of Atheists, Deists, Agnostics and my grandma who is also Catholic.

maxmordon · Dec 26, 2008

KTC said:
If you get along in every other area of your lives, do what they say not to do: Don't discuss religion. Just come to an agreement that you will not discuss it with each other...and ask him to respect your decision while you respect his.

To me, this seems the most viable way so far.

maxmordon · Dec 26, 2008

zornhau said:
(I quite like threads like this because they are good source material for writing atheists writing relgious characters.)

Speaking as an atheist parent: He may well be afraid that religion has/will take you away from him, or that it will hamstring you in some practical and emotional ways and that he has failed you.

Do you both still see the world and morality the same way? If so, you might want to explore that.

It's also possible that he enjoys a good debate/verbal scrap and doesn't realise how much it pushes you apart. If so, you should just tell him to, "Shut the #### up about religion and talk about something else." Does he have any religious friends who are really just sparring partners?

Finally... well, this is the Atheist forum and I'm an atheist. From where I'm standing, religion is mostly - to put it nicely - a parasitic meme. Not all activities to do with religion are pointless, but ultimately, it's a waste of brain space. I myself would feel depressed and a failure if my children embraced any sort of religion. However, I''d fight tooth and nail to maintain the relationship.

See? That's why I am affraid. I am affraid he's ashamed of me because of my beliefs.

I am not sure about his friends, though. Most of them seem to be Bohemian intelectuals who shere most of his point of view.

StephanieFox · Dec 27, 2008

Flapdoodle said:
Is this a US cultural thing? I see US films/TV episodes where the plot revolves around a Father trying to get his son to go down the same career path as him, same university, etc. Does this really happen in a big way? I don't know anyone over here who had this happen to them! Most parents in the UK try to persuade their kids to not do what they did!

It's not really a cultural thing in real life so much as a plot point. It doen'st really happen in a big way, although I know a couple of guys (older guys now, with their own children) who went down the same educational or career path as their dads. But, sometimes, when it happens, the son is not of the same tempermant or intelligence as the father, which is why we have George W. Bush.

If you wrote that story for a movie script, no one would believe it.

zornhau · Dec 28, 2008

maxmordon said:
See? That's why I am affraid. I am affraid he's ashamed of me because of my beliefs.

I am not sure about his friends, though. Most of them seem to be Bohemian intellectuals who share most of his point of view.

To amplify on an earlier point, grom an atheist POV, many of the moral and political things that accompany some brands of Christianity are more contemptible than the actual believing in God thing.

Examples might be: blinkered home-schooling, abstinence "education", evolution denial, racism, anti-abortion, "traditional" marriage, loudly shunning any film or story that might in some odd way challenge your belief (e.g. HP), mechanistic view of the power of prayer, gay bashing, and... well, you get the idea. Even to many Christians, some Christians are cringe-worthy.

If you can reassure him on any of the above, he might find he has very little to be ashamed of.

That said, parents don't live forever. I think you owe it to yourself and yoru father to test your faith now.

Reading contrary arguments, especially Betrand Russell and Dawkins, and look into your own heart - are you 100% sure that this is not a phase you're going through?

You're going to feel very stupid and foolish if, long after your dad is gone, you realise you were just kicking out against the parental intellectual prison and that you've squandered your time together.

smoothseas · Dec 28, 2008

Hey, Max ...

Are you back from spending Christmas con tu aubilita yet? Did you have fun?

~ ~ ~ Feliez ano nuevo ~ ~ ~

Dad and I

Penúltimo

Penúltimo

has finally arrived

Penúltimo

Penúltimo

Penúltimo

Penúltimo

Maybull the Bulldog

Penúltimo

Swordsman

Historicals and Horror rule

Stand in the Place Where You Live

Penúltimo

Penúltimo

Penúltimo

Maybull the Bulldog

Swordsman

Life sucks... Then ya die...