For those who fought and died.....

ReallyRong said:

Ok, now the election fever has died down, I have a more sombre point to make. Over here in the UK (and possibly elsewhere) this weekend is a moment of reflection for those who, in darker times, answered their nation's call to arms in order to to defend the rights of freedom and democracy, and take an unfamiliar gun in their hands and be prepared to do or die in order to protect their own heritage and that of the likes of you and I. I'm talking about the absolute quagmire of world war one, which finally came to a conclusion on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month in the year of 1918. And being Brits we mark this event, not least because we still seem to be more traumatised by that war than any other. (I'm guessing 30,000 casualties in a single day would help). I'm also guessing that most Americans don't see this as one of their wars, but it just goes to show that nearly 10,000 US casualties at the battle of Belleau Wood is hardly known, yet alone remembered. I know that Stalin said "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a a statistic", but was life that cheap then? Anyhow, I'm now (finally) getting to the meat of this post, which is that with US/UK/other troops serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, do we either give them the respect they're owed, do we give them any respect, or are they simply pawns in a bigger gameplan?

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I can't speak for most Americans, but I think most of us my age, born between WWI and WWII, do think of WWI as one of "our wars." Of course, time passes quickly, and so that war has receded in the public memory considerably. We once commemorated it on 11 November, as "Armistice Day," but we later changed that to "Veterans Day" and set it aside to remember the veterans of all wars. My father fought in WWI in France, so it was the first war I ever heard anything about as a child, and my dad's reminiscinces probably were highly instrumental in my later choosing the Army as a profession -- that and WWII, with which I was much more personally familiar. And being military, I studied a good bit of military history, thus becoming even more familiar with WWI.

So, yes, Belleau Wood resonates with me. So much so that I mentioned it in the first short story I ever sold, more years ago than I care to count. I am also familiar with your Battle of the Somme. It's mentioned in many service school classes, or was in my years on active duty.

As for the troops now serving in Afghanistan and Iraq, I think we in this country give them a great deal of respect, certainly far more than was ever given to those who fought in Vietnam or Korea. I left the U.S. for Vietnam to the solitary farewell of my weeping wife of nine months; nobody else noticed. I came home from Vietnam to a welcome from my young wife and not much of anybody else. Thirty years later, my daughter, having finally learned a bit of my Vietnam history, wrote me a long letter thanking me for my service. It was the first, and last, time anybody did. And that was okay with me. I was a professional soldier; I didn't feel the need of anybody's thanks. My point in mentioning that is that we go far beyond that today. For one thing, soldiers go to Iraq and Afghanistan, usually, as members of a unit, and return the same way, unless killed or wounded. In Vietnam, as in WWII and Korea, we went most often as individuals or members of small, temporarily-assembled packets being sent over as replacements. There was little opportunity for flag-waving send-offs or welcomes home. Now it's different. Furthermore, there seems to be a large reservoir of national guilt for the shabby treatment Vietnam veterans got. And I'm not talking about professionals like me, but the young draftees and enlistees who fought in a bitter, grueling war, not of their making, and got spit upon, physically or figuratively, for their pains. Now there is a great effort to erase that national memory.

Many are opposed to the war in Iraq, fewer so about Afghanistan. But the public makes a significant distinction between the war itself and the soldiers fighting it. And rightly so.

As to your final question, yes, they're pawns in a bigger game plan. All soldiers are. They can only pray that it's an honorable game plan and that they will perform honorably.

A long answer to your message. And only my own experience and opinion. Others may differ.

I feel guilty about the Vietnam vets and I wasn't even born then. Even the most die hard liberals I know, who are as pacifistic as it gets, still say that they are pro-soldier.

Except for this one asshole from Hawaii who called all soldiers psychopaths who can't get jobs in the "real" world.

I've never wanted to punch someone so badly...

Born in 1932 and a student of History, I always viewed WWI as our war too as brief as our time in combat was compared to the rest. In Belleau Woods, one company of Marines emerged with eight survivors.

And specifically, the causalties the British took in the Somme and elsewhere were horrendous. The generals did not catch up with the technology of war. All participating countries suffered enormous losses.

Yet there was a romance and glamor attached to the fighter pilots. In the skies, individual glory could be won.

Some great poetry came out of that war, as well. Here's arguably the most famous and affecting, for any who may not be familiar with it. Written by Wilfred Owen, who died in action one week before the Armistace was signed.


Dulce Et Decorum Est

This hit me like a ton of bricks when I first read it in high school, and it still does.

WW I is very much an American war too. Despite much pacifist opposition, Wilson finally decided the US had no alternative but to intervene. And we've never been the same since.

Many of our WW II heroes were weaned in that war, including Douglas MacArthur and Harry Truman.

You and I Are Disappearing: http://www.ibiblio.org/ipa/poems/komunyakaa/you_and_i_are_disappearing--Bjorn_Hakansson.php

AncientEagle - You did what I can't ever imagine doing. I'd like to be the second to thank you for your service and sacrifice. I am appreciative to all of our past and current service men and women.

The link below is more like the welcome I wish you had received. Thanks again for your service, AncientEagle, and welcome home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTlOuLBtBeQ

MoonWriter said:

AncientEagle - You did what I can't ever imagine doing. I'd like to be the second to thank you for your service and sacrifice. I am appreciative to all of our past and current service men and women.

The link below is more like the welcome I wish you had received. Thanks again for your service, AncientEagle, and welcome home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTlOuLBtBeQ

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Thank you, MoonWriter. I appreciate that, but I really didn't make my comments in a search for accolades. I joined to serve, no strings attached, and I've never regretted any of my service, combat or otherwise. My sincere regret, though, is for those young enlisted soldiers who sacrificed so much in the Vietnam War and got so little in return. I was there because I wanted to be, because it was my profession, good or bad. By the time I went to Vietnam, I had 11 years service under my belt, had been shot at before, had done other risky things, and was doing what I'd been trained and schooled to do for long years. Most of these kids were away from home for the first time, scared, lonesome, and tasked with the most awesome of duties. Many were not there by choice. So any resentment I feel is only for them, not me. I have never felt a need to weep for me, but I have wept for them. The infantry soldier in particular (I'm biased, but the infantry was my branch, that branch Ernie Pyle wrote so eloquently about) is my favorite creature on earth. Muddy, bloody, smelly, scared, suffering more casualties than all the other branches combined, having the fewest comforts, and facing the absolute ultimate test of the human spirit...I'm sorry, but I get carried away sometimes talking about him. But he's the one who deserves any accolades, not me.

The privledged in this country are those who can go to sleep at night without being awaken by nightmares, those who aren't haunted by graphic images of death, those who don't suffer daily the memories of a loss comrade in arms. The heros in this country are the ones who carry these burdens. I know you didn't post to solicit accolades, AncientEagle, but I consider you and everyone who served honorably an American Hero.

I'm a Eucharistic Minister for the Catholic church. I bring communion to the home bound. Mr. Tom Tomeny was a navigator on a bomber in WWII. He flew in the required # of missions before being reassigned. He too talked about the sacrifice of others but never complained about the sacrifices he endured. He was always happy, even during these last few months when he was in great pain. He thanked me each week for visiting. He always asked that I call him Tom. I couldn't. I don't know if it's because I was raised in the south or because I don't address Heros by their first name, but whatever the reason, I won't have the chance to call him Tom. Mr. Tomeny died yesterday.

So many have received so much from so few.

"...do we either give them the respect they're owed, do we give them any respect, or are they simply pawns in a bigger gameplan?"

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To answer your question: yes, yes, and yes.

To answer your implied question - why is it collectively different for Americans than UK - I think part of it is ... WWI didn't happen here. And it does make a difference.

Personally - my father's mother & father came from Europe just in time to avoid getting caught up in WWI. ~1918. I really don't know exactly - not when the war really "started" nor when they actually got here.

Whether it was because they saw it coming or another reason, I don't know. It was never discussed. EVER. At any level. I think it was just my family dynamics - no sinister reason.

And in school, WWI was barely touched as a topic (if it was discussed at all). I don't remember it being discussed. Everything I know about it was through my own choice of reading material because I wanted to know.

I know it isn't that way for everyone. But I also know I'm not alone.
JMO - for what it's worth.

Amen. What the Eagle said.

As a fellow veteran, an officer in my local VFW, and with Veteran's Day just around the corner, my thanks, sir. For your service, and your words.

Rememberance Day is well recognised here in Australia too. I think every soldier in every war deserves the greatest amount of respect and thanks. No-one wants to go and fight in a war.

but was life that cheap then?

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No, life wasn't cheap.

Historically, however, the 20 million deaths caused by the war was greatly overshadowed by the 100 million deaths caused by the flu pandemic. That blunted the impact of the war greatly.

There is just no comparison between WWI and the Gulf War.

That Great Influenza WAS devastating. I believe we lost 500,000 + or - people to it here in the USA.

That would be the equivalent by percentage of about 1.5 million today.

My grandfather survived WWI, and came home to find his wife and daughters dead of the flu.

anyway, Remembrance Day is a big deal in my household ( as it coincides with Einheriar) and in the rest of the UK. For two minutes the whole country is silent and remembers all those who died in any war, of any nationality.

'They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.'

In other news, the War Graves Commission is revamping every single headstone / memorial ( which they estimate will take 28 years) because 'a neglected headstone is a brave man or woman forgotten, and that is not acceptable'

Thanks for that
I like the whole poem which is very moving

ec forsacho allum dioboles uuercum and uuordum, Thunaer ende Uuöden ende Saxnote ende allum them unholdum the hira genötas sint

Or do I

6 weeks to equinox

Joe270 said:

There is just no comparison between WWI and the Gulf War.

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I've read quite a bit about WWI and I think you can make a strong case for it being the worst war in history, at least from a soldier's POV.

donroc; said:

That Great Influenza WAS devastating. I believe we lost 500,000 + or - people to it here in the USA.

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My grandmother told me that when she was a little girl literally half the people in her town died of the flu in two weeks.

It was a worldwide pandemic

http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/

In San Francisco, we always bought remembrance poppies on Armistice Day as we used to call 11 November.

A legs amuptee veteran on metal prostheses used to serenade us from the street with his megaphone periodically throughout the year, and we children would give him coins. We did not throw them from the window either.

In Flanders Field was recited at school each year as well.

petec said:

ec forsacho allum dioboles uuercum and uuordum, Thunaer ende Uuöden ende Saxnote ende allum them unholdum the hira genötas sint

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Not on your sodding nelly! Fiends my arse.

donroc said:

In San Francisco, we always bought remembrance poppies on Armistice Day as we used to call 11 November.

A legs amuptee veteran on metal prostheses used to serenade us from the street with his megaphone periodically throughout the year, and we children would give him coins. We did not throw them from the window either.

In Flanders Field was recited at school each year as well.

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I buy the fake paper poppies every year on Veteran's Day, and they usually stay where I put them (on the visor in my car) until the next year.

My husband is a member of the local chapter of our VFW. Sadly, though, he's the youngest member by a very comfortable margin.

Still, to this day, the traffic stops in Ypres in Belgium at eight every evening while the Last Post is played at Menin Gate in honour of those who died in WW1.

"At the going down of the sun and in the morning We will remember them."