Blurring the line between good and evil

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Shadow Dragon

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I was wondering if you guys like it when a story doesn't have a definetive line between who is good and who is evil? I'm wondering because neither side of the main conflct of my story is really good or evil and because I think it should be done more often.
 

StoryG27

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To echo red's comment, moral ambiguity rules.
 

heyjude

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Yes and no. There is a lot of gray in life, and books often explore that gray. Having said that, as a reader if I have no one to root for, I'll lose interest.
 

tehuti88

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I like some ambiguity, but I also like some clarity. I guess I'm a fence sitter.

I like when a story has a good guy and a bad guy but I do not like it when the good guy is SUPER 100% PERFECT GOOD and the bad guy is SUPER 100% HORRIFIC EVIL. It's just too fake and shallow. I like to know the flaws and shortcomings the hero has, and the reasons why the bad guy is so bad--reasons which are often something I can understand, even if not sympathize with. I like stories where there's good and there's evil, but there's no SUPREME GOOD and no SUPREME EVIL, and sometimes the two change places over time. More like, there are shades of almost-white and almost-black, and lots of grays, but no pristine white and no jet black.

Hope that made some sort of sense. :eek: I'm big on the Jungian concept of the Shadow--everything contains its opposite--so that helps clarify where I'm coming from.
 

kct webber

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I think havign someone to root for and root against is simply the same as having a protag and an antag--but, to me, good and evil have little to do with that. It can have something to do with it, but doesn't have to. I like some ambiguity. I like it when protags have to do bad things to succeed, have to make choices that they would never had made before the shit hit the fan. And when antags are sympathetic and/or understandable.

And Tehuti: isn't it great when you can refer to Jungian concepts and everyone around actually understands you? That's one of the reasons why I hang out here. If I were to say that to most of my friends outside AW, I would get all sorts of dumb looks. :D
 

NeuroFizz

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I think what you are asking is if we like characters who have real human qualities and vulnerabilities. On that grand sliding scale of good to evil, rarely does any real person plop down on either extreme--we all have chest puffing qualities we flaunt as well as personal failures we whisper about with our hands covering our mouths. And many of us have some events in our history that only come back to haunt us in nightmares.
 

FennelGiraffe

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Gimme that moral ambiguity.

My sympathy for the protag and antipathy for the antag don't require black and white perfection. I find stories about protags who are GOOD and antags who are EVIL to be overly simplistic. I'd much rather read about multidimensional characters facing complex choices in shades of gray.
 

Phaeal

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An excerpt from my latest novel-in-progress addresses this question:

“Are you suggesting Orne's a dark wizard?”

“Are you suggesting I’m a light one?”

Was she? “I’m not afraid of you. I don’t think you mean harm.”

Geldman bowed. “The dichotomy of dark and light is simplistic, but in the way I follow, doing harm diminishes the core of one’s own power. Reverend Orne labors under no such restriction. He's done harm, even murder. His gods rather encourage it. Still, I believe he'd prefer to avoid violence.”

The tea (never cooling) didn't quite bar fear from her mind. “Orne's a murderer, but you’re not his enemy?”

“No."

“I don’t understand.”

“Why should you?" Geldman's voice was soothing, fond, a favorite uncle's. "You've just come among us."
 

Mad Queen

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I love moral ambiguity and flawed characters. They are not the same, in my opinion, and having someone to root for is something else. If you can tell a flaw is a flaw, it's not ambiguous. Moral ambiguity is when you don't know what's good and what's evil anymore, because every action has good and bad consequences, or a situation is so complicated there are no right answers, or the only way to save the day is by doing some ugly things.
 

Stunted

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I'd say that there has to be at least one character I can route(sp) for, but they don't necessarily need to be good.
 

Dawnstorm

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Instead of blurring the line between good and evil, try ignoring the concepts of "good" and "evil" altogher, focussing entirely on character motivation instead. No avatars of abstract concept to pupulate storyscape. ;)
 
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To quote Redzilla, I too am a fan of 'moral ambiguity' in novels. There's no such thing as black hats and white hats. Real people aren't all good or all bad. There are degrees of badness or goodness and, depending on the circumstances, we can each be pushed to do things that now, at this moment, we consider morally wrong. Likewise, 'baddies' can change.
 

DamaNegra

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Even the man who, in my WIP, murdered a pregnant woman in cold blood did it for reasons he deemed good and noble. If you didn't know that little detail, or other criminal activities he'd incurred in, you'd think he was a great guy. And he is, he just has... er, a different set of morals.
 

Kateri

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Blurring the line is intriguing and I would be thinking of who fitted where and why. Humanity is not divided into good and evil and we all swap from day to day. Stories and life help us redefine long held beliefs. Identity is dynamic, follow your instinct Shadow Dragon and good luck.
 

heyjude

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So I was thinking about this thread yesterday while reading a book filled with these "morally ambiguous characters" and wondering whatever happened to good guys. It seems like they're a dying breed. Personally, and it looks like I'm in the distinct minority of one here, but I like a good guy to root for. Doesn't mean s/he has to be perfect--no one is. But I like to see someone fight the good fight and come out on top.
 

tehuti88

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Oh, don't get me wrong, I like a good guy to root for too (even said so previously :D ). But ambiguity can make a story more interesting, realistic, and complex. And as others have said there can be good characters but ambiguous situations. And sometimes good people have to do nasty things.

The book series I'm currently reading, there seems to be NOBODY really who is a "good guy" to root for. Everybody, even the MC who starts out sympathetic and with good intentions, seems corrupt and opportunistic. I really hope something changes by the end of the series because I find it so bleak. Ambiguity, yes, love it, but I prefer a LITTLE clarity here and there. At the moment, I'm really not liking the protagonist, not even in a "What a horrific jerk! I love him!" kind of way. I'm not finding myself wanting to root for anybody, and that's bothersome.

I think ambiguity is good when it makes the reader think, but when it just makes the reader think, "Why should I like (even in a twisted way) any of these people?" then it might have gone too far.
 

heyjude

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Oh, don't get me wrong, I like a good guy to root for too (even said so previously :D ). But ambiguity can make a story more interesting, realistic, and complex. And as others have said there can be good characters but ambiguous situations. And sometimes good people have to do nasty things.

The book series I'm currently reading, there seems to be NOBODY really who is a "good guy" to root for. Everybody, even the MC who starts out sympathetic and with good intentions, seems corrupt and opportunistic. I really hope something changes by the end of the series because I find it so bleak. Ambiguity, yes, love it, but I prefer a LITTLE clarity here and there. At the moment, I'm really not liking the protagonist, not even in a "What a horrific jerk! I love him!" kind of way. I'm not finding myself wanting to root for anybody, and that's bothersome.

I think ambiguity is good when it makes the reader think, but when it just makes the reader think, "Why should I like (even in a twisted way) any of these people?" then it might have gone too far.

Oops, sorry tehuti! Somehow I missed that... I totally agree with you, esp. on the "why should I like these people?" thing.
 

KTC

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I love broken heroes. I think when good and bad is clouded, it makes for a great story. What I don't like is perfection on the side of good. It's sickening because you will not find that in real life. Everybody is flawed...and everybody, no matter how morally high they wish to believe they are, crosses the lines between good and evil.
 

KTC

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So I was thinking about this thread yesterday while reading a book filled with these "morally ambiguous characters" and wondering whatever happened to good guys. It seems like they're a dying breed. Personally, and it looks like I'm in the distinct minority of one here, but I like a good guy to root for. Doesn't mean s/he has to be perfect--no one is. But I like to see someone fight the good fight and come out on top.

It's great to root for the good guy...it's laborious and boring to root for the perfect guy. I don't think good guys are disappearing. I do think they are written more realistically lately.
 
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