Subsidy publishing-Is it really that bad?

I don't see these 'lot of people' being anti-subsidy. I see a lot of time and energy put into providing accurate info and rebutting fallacies. It is what it is.

Panda Dragon said:

True, I guess that came out a little bit wrong what I said. So apologies if that came out as harsh. I was just saying that people shouldn't automatically discourage it. However, to be fair, the information given here on the "fake" publishers is very well researched. But I myself see susidy publishing as a good alternative and don't think it should be discouraged.

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It depends on what you're writing, and what you hope to get out of it. I don't think anyone here is anti-self-publishing, we're just honest about it. Self-publishing or even vanity publishing can work for very well for, say non-fiction on a specialized subject, especially if you're a public speaker who can sell your books at your appearances or have some other built-in audience. A book on a specific topic in model train building, for example, wouldn't have a large enough audience to interest a major publisher, but you might have a big enough audience among fellow model-train enthusiasts to guarantee you get back your investment plus a little more. Many of us recommend Lulu.com as well, which is a site where you can self-publish for free.

But for fiction writing, self-publishing probably isn't worth it, not if you pay several thousand dollars to publish it. Chances are overwhelmingly against you earning back even half of your investment.

The fact is, readers buy books from bookstores, and your book will probably not be in them. Readers buy books from bookstores because they know the books in there were professionally edited and published and so are a certain level of quality.

If all you want is a few copies of your book in your hand, self-publishing is fine. If you hope to make a living at writing, or even enough money to take a nice vacation or pay some bills--if you want people you don't actually know personally to buy, read, and enjoy your novel--self-publishing is not the way to go.


Incidentally...while there is an element of luck involved, getting an offer from a legitimate house has a lot more to do with hard work, persistence, and more hard work than it does luck. It's not like buying a lottery ticket.

Panda Dragon said:

They don't brag about what they do, they don't lie about who they are, but they have a geninue interest in publishing books.

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One reason I would never pay an agent or publisher is because then I'd never know how much of their interest was in my book and how much was in my checkbook.

On the whole, I don't think subsidised publishing is a bad thing at all. Sure, you have to put up your own money for it, but what's so different to that and starting up your own business?

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To me, a more accurate analogy is paying an employer (publisher) to let you work (to take your rights of first publication). Of course, if a writer isn't interested in selling thousands of copies, having distribution or having an career in writing, this is irrelevant. But a lot of people who go into vanity or subsidy publishing do want this. They would really like to have their book being bought by people other than their friends and family.

If a writer only wants to see their book in print, a cheaper option than vanity publishing is to take it to Kinko's or Lulu. Lulu will even supply an ISBN.

Also, not everyone is lucky enough to get offers from what I guess a lot of people call "Legit" publishers, so this is another option.

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It's not just a matter of luck. A lot of books are rejected because they aren't good enough.

There's a time and a place for vanity publishing or subsidy publishing. If it works for you, that's great. For other writers, though, it might be a bad idea. Hence all the information on this site.

I see only one or two members out of the 9000 or so that we have who automatically discourage it--making this one of the most pro-self publishing reputable forums on the internet.

I have seen at least a dozen people assume any kind of analytic approach to specific self-publishing providers is based on a prejudice against the self-publishing business model.

I, personally, find this leap to judgement at least as annoying as being blanket anti-self publishing. I buy an average of 1 or 2 self-published book a month (unlike many who actually published this way), I review self-published books, I founded and continue to help run a blog on the subject--yet the second I say something less than promotional about any self-publishing provider I am assumed to be some kind of meanie [sigh].

I cheerfully admit meaniehood towards any vanity press which is dishonest about its vanity press status.

Hi Panda Dragon,

I use Lulu to publish my history books with a distribution package. For what it's worth, I have sold 31 books so far this month. I know that will not make me rich, but I get some satisfaction from knowing that some people are reading my books and it makes me happy.

I put my Poetry and Sonnets book on Lulu last Thursday and so far, 44 people have downloaded it. I am only telling you this to explain what is possible.

Basically, I publish through Lulu because I have not been lucky enough to find an agent or mainstream publisher for the type of material I write, but I do not let that stop me getting my books out there. I am aware of course that they will not appear in bookshops.

Of course, my sales are nothing like I could hope to achieve through a mainstream publisher. The sales are a drop in the ocean and I know that. For my next book (which I am working on at the moment), I will try again for an agent and publisher.

I hope this helps. I have found Lulu great to work with. If you just want Lulu to sell your book, you do not have to pay at all. If you want a distribution package (UK) you will pay £79.99 for ten isbns.

Barbara

There's quite a few writers who first self published and then became traditionally published. The reason I think that some people avoid these books is because so many of them are not written very well, nor edited. If you want to sell only ten books so be it, but I think those who are serious about writing aim to one day sell thousands.

Panda Dragon said:

This I don't agree with totally. There are plenty of talented writers out there, but it's not just luck or talent, it's whether they can make any money out of a book. Because, let's face, most publishers are only in it to make money.

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I'm a little confused here. Of course it's about making money from a book. And good books by new writers are accepted by publishers all the time (one look in the Goals and Accomplishments forum is enough to see that). These are books that have the potential to make money.

So if they were not accepted because of luck or talent and the authors aren't celebrities (at least, I'm guessing they can't all be celebrities in that forum) what criteria are the publishers using?

By the way, unless publishers become publishers out of sheer altruism or a need to show a loss on their income tax forms, they're all in it to make money. It's just that commercial publishers make money from readers and bookstores. Vanity publishers make it directly from authors.

That's why there are so many celebrity books out there rather than actual novels, because publishers know they will make a return out of it.

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Sure there are celebrity books. There are also novels from people I never heard of before picking up their books. By the way, I'm willing to bet that if I go to the local Indigo, there will be many more novels than books written by celebrities - but the vast majority of those novels will be commercially published rather than vanity-printed.

And that's not totally my opinion, it's from an email I got from G.P Taylor (another self published writer who made it) and I have to agree with him on many levels.

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This is a misconception about commercial publishing. I have no doubt that it's not totally your opinion. I've read it on the PublishAmerica Message Board many times before.

Another example of this is a friend of mine. She wrote a chick-lit novel, which she took to a Helen Fielding book signing. She wrote back to her saying that it was one of the best novels she'd ever read. She even quoted that on the query she sent out on her permission. To this day, she hasn't been published. So I don't think talent has much to do with it.

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Some people are good at writing, but not so good at putting a query letter together. I know my first attempts were awful. I kept trying. If I had concluded, from my experiences, that commercial publishers only accepted celebrities, or that talent and hard work and research and determination didn't have anything to do with getting published, I doubt I would have been offered representation by an agent.

cooeedownunder said:

There's quite a few writers who first self published and then became traditionally published. The reason I think that some people avoid these books is because so many of them are not written very well, nor edited. If you want to sell only ten books so be it, but I think those who are serious about writing aim to one day sell thousands.

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Hi Sharon,

I do agree that every writer will benefit from a professional editor. However, my personal choice to self publish came from my desire to see my work in print before I get so old that it becomes an impossible dream.

I am serious about my work and I edit it to my best ability. I'm not saying it's perfect but at least with Lulu the potential buyer gets to see a preview of the work before they buy.

Barbara

Panda, Panda...yes, there are a lot of books that are published by mainstream publishers that I don't think are very good at all. I would bring up one of the most famous writers of recent years, but I would get pulled to shreads.

Bo Sullivan said:

Hi Sharon,

I do agree that every writer will benefit from a professional editor. However, my personal choice to self publish came from my desire to see my work in print before I get so old that it becomes an impossible dream.

I am serious about my work and I edit it to my best ability. I'm not saying it's perfect but at least with Lulu the potential buyer gets to see a preview of the work before they buy.

Barbara

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Hi Barbara,

I understand fully the fun lulu can be. I have been a member with them for a few years and like to play around there from time to time. It can give you great satisfaction to hold your own book and give you a sense of achievement. Although the books going from lulu via their distribution channels due to print on demand prices are often priced out of the market. There have been a couple of Lulu books that have done exceptional good but they have been marketed very well by the author. They are also carefully edited by another party. It is near impossible for an author to edit their own work. If you are happy with what you have done, that is all that matters. Good luck with it.

Interesting (and eternally ongoing ) discussion which really doesn't belong in FAQs.

I'm going to punt it over to the Roundtable. If the tall foreheads in that department deem it belongs elsewhere - I'll bow to their good judgment.

Panda Dragon said:

Queen of Swords, please don't think I'm attacking your opinions

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Why would I think that? You made some claims, I questioned you on them, you ended your side of the discussion. I don't see any attacking. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

cooeedownunder said:

Hi Barbara,

I understand fully the fun lulu can be. I have been a member with them for a few years and like to play around there from time to time. It can give you great satisfaction to hold your own book and give you a sense of achievement. Although the books going from lulu via their distribution channels due to print on demand prices are often priced out of the market. There have been a couple of Lulu books that have done exceptional good but they have been marketed very well by the author. They are also carefully edited by another party. It is near impossible for an author to edit their own work. If you are happy with what you have done, that is all that matters. Good luck with it.

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I'm just grateful that Lulu exists for books that aren't considered mainstream material. I think hitting the mark with subject matter is one of the major keys to getting an agent/mainstream publisher.

As for Lulu prices being prohibitive - that is a problem and I set my royalties accordingly.

Barbara

Bo Sullivan said:

I'm just grateful that Lulu exists for books that aren't considered mainstream material. I think hitting the mark with subject matter is one of the major keys to getting an agent/mainstream publisher.

As for Lulu prices being prohibitive - that is a problem and I set my royalties accordingly.

Barbara

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I think, and don't take this the wrong way, but I have read some of your stories and I don't see why they can't be published with a bit of work. Try not to undersell yourself.

I totally agree with everything Queen of Swords said. It's really worth re-reading.

Putting aside the handful of "successful" self published authors, the other hundreds of thousands that are printed every year lose money for the writer. So, if you are into non profit - actually into losing money -- then IMO self publishing is perfect for a writer. The only other reasons (again IMO) would be if you want to give the your book free of charge to parents, other family, or friends, or if there's some other personal reason.

By the way, did you ever stop and realize that right here at AW there are hundreds. perhaps thousands (I am not privy to the number) of writers who have been published by traditional publishing houses and who at one point had never been published before. How - talent, incredible hard work and subject research, study of the craft and the business, creating wonderful query letters, proposals, etc., researching and submitting to the proper agents and/or publishers.

But hey, if self publishing is for you, good luck.

Panda Dragon said:

Like I said, I'm, not in this to make money (I have a job for that), I'm in it for a love of telling stories.

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Writers who want their work read by an audience have another option - they can put it up for free on the Internet.

Plus, I think I owe it to the other vanity presses that actually do publish stories to give them a chance.

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Just FYI - all vanity presses print stories sent to them if the authors pay or the vanity press believes the authors will pay eventually. No one's saying they won't print your work. It's just that there are cheaper options for any writers who want a few bound copies of their manuscripts, and better options for any writers who want to sell more than those few copies.

But if you're going into this to help the vanity press, that's generous of you and paying them will achieve that goal. However, it's not a two-way street. They won't be taking a chance on you, because you'll have paid them in advance.

If it all goes wrong, you guys can feel free to point at me and laugh.

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If that's what you believe people here will do, you may not have been reading the Bewares forum.