Questions about Riding Horses

I can give a little info on the last one.

If you don't know how to properly sit in a saddle, it quickly gets VERY uncomfortable. Even at a sedate walk, if a guy's not sitting right certain areas tend to get...squished with every step the horse takes. After a while you work out what's comfortable, but it takes a while. At a gallop? Now that'd be painful.

If they're riding together, it'd be pretty hard to stay on the horse. You're looking at the hostage hanging on for dear life to whatever is available, especially if there are no stirrups. The reins, the kidnapper, the horse's mane, whatever.

Macallister has answered a lot of these questions here.

There's an incredible amount of variation here.

chronomodra said:

Four questions:

1. What kind of horses would the kidnapper's ally use for the purposes of endurance and being able to carry two people (with a combined weight of 250-300 lbs.) A horse weighing more than 1,000 pounds could carry this weight, but not for far. A draft horse could carry this load farther, but at a slower speed. More likely, the kidnapper would use two horses, riding one and leading the other.
2. How far would each horse travel before it gets exhausted, necessitating a switch? Assume the horse is being driven at a gallop. The faster you go, the shorter the distance. Figure the difference between the fifty yard dash and the marathon. Maximum distance at a gallop would probably be about five miles. The pone express did about 10 to 20 miles between changes (depending on terrain) and would seem a reasonable balance between speed and distance. Remember that every time you change horses you slow down.
3. How many times could the kidnapper make this switch before he gets tired and needs to ride at a trot? (As I assume riding a horse at a gallop is exhausting to the rider as well.) The rider is going to last longer than the horse at high speeds. With planning, you can ride 100 miles in less than 24 hours. Depending on the horse and rider is going to determine the relaxation gait. Some horses have a fast walk that works, others a slow trot.
4. How hard would this be on the hostage, seeing as how he is never ridden a horse at a gallop, and would not have the benefit of stirrups (since the kidnapper is using them?) Hard as hell. I'd tie the sucker right to the horse, belly down. Won't be a happy camper, but just so much easier.

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Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Middle ages typically used terms like 'courser' and 'rouncy' See the wiki or there's a nice web site on these breeds or find the horse link thread in this forum, which I'm about to bump.

Don't even try to figure out medieval horse terminology without reference to time and place; your head will implode.

Keep in mind too that medieval horse "types" were mostly descriptions of gaits and geographic area, not breeds.

My understanding of the original post is technology comparable the Middle Ages, but not necessarily set in the Middle Ages...leaves you plenty of room to invent your horse and tack. Make your enduro horse lightly built, rangy, flat-muscled, thin skinned, light coat--he'll dissipate heat better than a bulky breed. And he'll run the bulky horse into the ground.

I've ridden long and fast quite a bit, in a sport that's similar to endurance but without the mandatory holds...speedy folks routinely kill a technical backcountry 25 mile course in 3.5 hours. (I'm a 3:45er --not elite speed, just recreational.) I've had to condition two at a time, so have ridden one-handed leading the other at speed for hours, but if I'd ordered someon unused to riding fast and long, especially on tough terrain (picture the horse skiing down muddy banks, jumping logs and ditches, thrashing through creeks, plus the angle of steep ascents and descents) onto my other horse, I think my hostage would likely puke from exhaustion in an hour or so then gag and I might be inclined to slow down if I didn't want said hostage to aspirate his own vomit.

If I had to carry the person on the same horse with me, I would not be able to go nearly as far or fast. While I'm sure the hostage's fitness is going to kill the speed I could have had using two horses, our combined weight will kill my horse's endurance if I just use one horse.

The limiting factor in your escape plan will not be the expert rider's ability to continue switching horses. It just won't.

How far do you need covered? If your escape is something of up to fifty miles, I can see possibly bullying the lesser rider through it. Give *at least* one fresh set of horses (for a total of four assuming we're not riding the same horse). Assuming my hostage is as cooperative to commands as your post implies, and I don't let the hostage have reins, I just lead his horse, we're good enough. Give me fresh horses every 5-10 miles and we're better...especially if the hostage has good natural balance and courage.

A horse under saddle is not referred to as driven at a gallop, but ridden. Also the gallop is likely not the gait we'll use unless this is some extremely nice footing and I'm getting a new horse every three miles. If you pull up some video of a racing horse versus a cantering one (say in show jumping) you can *hear* the difference. Gallop/run is four beats, canter/lope is three and the speed is slower.

Sounds like fun. Here's hoping your hostage can walk the next day.

In the middle ages, i would be surprised to see a combined weight over 300 pounds, more likely to be 250 pounds.

My riding experience, the rough ride is at a cantor to trot, once the transition to a gallop, the ride is quite smooth.

A good horse for those days would probably balk at having two riders, once settled, would not want to gallop because of the weight distribution on either the fore legs, or the haunches.

With two riders, a horse hitting a rut or gopher hole, a knoll would probably topple over and break a leg. The best I could do was get up to a bumpy cantor with a younger girl riding in front.

Distance, maybe 40 miles before you need to rest, depends how fast the horse comes to a full sweat, around two to two and a half hours. If you don't care about the horse, probably three hours at a gallop and another at a cantor, maybe 55 miles.

A better option is to lead a second horse, then you could probably do 50 miles in a little over three hours.

Believe me, riding three hours at full gallop, you will wear out before the horse, unless your experienced at riding and the terrain. If covering new terrain, you will be exhausted.

Trotting sucks. That's all I have to say.

Notwithstanding all the variables surrounding the size/condition etc of the horse.... put a saddle on one and you're immediately screwed for having a passenger (willing or otherwise). Saddles have long had these things called pommels (raised front end) and cantles (raised back end) which project fore and aft of the saddles occupant. As the easiest way for a horse to carry weight is over its centre of gravity (located just behind the withers on flat ground) that means plonking both occupants of the horse's back as close to the centre of gravity as possible.

I challenge anyone to sit/lie butt up to the occupant of a saddle and not be screaming and cursing at the physical discomfort caused by either of said cantle or pommel within minutes. At a walk, maybe (as ladies do in Portugal I believe on the Andulasians on festival days) but anything faster? Forget it!

Either go bareback, or get a racing saddle/pony pad. They're basically flat.

Or ... for credibility's sake, maybe have your kidnapper arrange to have two horses at each station - they ride one, and the kidnappee the other, led by the kidnapper.

2Wheels,
The raised pommels and cantles are a relatively recent western modification to saddles, added to accommodate the usage of the lasso and bucking/breaking. The middle age saddles had relatively flat pommels (front) and cantle (rear). As I mentioned before, if the second person is not positioned between the shoulders and haunches, the horse would probably refuse to gallop. I agree, two horses are better than one.
Smiles
Bob
BTW. A gallop on a strong horse is amazing. Check the pony express early west times, those riders did what you want to do, except the weight of the mail was in the center of the horse (saddle bags) and they cared about the horse. The average speed could be increased by thrashing to 15 mph.

Pony express info

Rider Relay:
New riders took over every 75 to 100 miles.
Horse Relay:
Riders got a fresh horse every 10 to 15 miles.
Speed:
Horses traveled an average of 10 miles per hour.

MM: I suppose it depends whether your term "relatively recent" means post 8th Century (when the Moors advanced into Spain and up to what is now the middle of France bringing high cantled saddles with them which morphed into the later medieval jousting/military saddle and so on).

Either way, you put anything semi-hard of more than an 1/2 inch height protruding fore/aft of a rider and it becomes extraordinarily uncomfortable for someone riding pillion.

The difficulty with the two horse scenario is that the OP says the kidnappee hasn't ridden beyond a walk before. Having worked (professionally) as a riding instructor, then I can tell you that even with neck straps etc to hang on to, they won't last more than a few strides at a canter let alone a gallop even on smooth ground..... to stand a hope they'd need to be hanging onto another rider (which goes back to the single horse theory), or tied into place! Bit of a catch 22...

I totally agree, 2Wheels. Leading a second horse at a gallop means you have twice as much to inspect ahead of you. Nasty. I have led a second horse at gallop, but that was without a person and I knew the trail. I almost lost her twice in 15 minutes. Near toppled Old Grey, my horse on the second stumble. Scary stuff. We led the injured rider back at a cantor. Unfortunately, the horse she was riding had to be put down.

When I write a multiple person escape scene involving a horse based transport environment, I try to use a carriage. It is so much easier, and the jostling that occurs inside a carriage at a cantor is amusing. I have never been in a carriage at a gallop, so I can't comment.

Smiles
Bob

I'm going to add my two cents here- If you want this to be credable and fit your criteria- then I would strongly recommend two horses- and as several people already said- hog tie your kidnappee belly down over the saddle of the second horse. It doesn't matter if your victim is on the same horse or a different one- if he/she is awake and unbound he/she will be difficult to control at a gallop.

Depending on the smoothness of the horse's gaits, trotting can be a lot worse than a canter. And many horses' natural walk is slower than a human's. Bottom line is that an hour on a horse if you're not accustomed to it and you'll be sore.

Fidgeting on a horse will cause most horses to slow down and/or stop. They get nervous unless they've been trained by movement in the saddle (for example vaulting). People falling off of them can cause them to fall.

Belly down over the saddle works, as has been demonstrated by every horse warrior culture. They all came up with the same solution. And after a day spent belly down, my guess is you were a lot more cooperative about riding the next. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel and being warm and fuzzy; a simple hit over the head, slung over the back of a horse, and tied underneath. Less than a minute to do.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

MagicMan said:

In the middle ages, i would be surprised to see a combined weight over 300 pounds, more likely to be 250 pounds.

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Why on earth do you think that?

Peasants starved; the aristocratic class did not, at all. It's not like this is hard to research; we've got lots and lots of pictures.

And yes, they did ride double, they even made pilgrimage saddles designed to hold two people--it was exceedingly common.

Finally, mules and donkeys were quite common as riding animals and pack animals.

One thing you guys have overlooked: Chronomodra has said this a FANTASY, so the writer can pick and choose the horse and tack. Just because you've only see a pommeled saddle doesn't mean this world has to be full of them. The US Cavalry used a McClellan saddle that was a stripped down sort of English saddle - no pommel, no use for the dang things. If you're not roping you don't need it, and if you know how to ride, you don't hang on to the saddle with anything other than your thighs and knees. (Chrono- below the knee the legs can be used for commands. Above the knee for hanging on. Stirrups are more for balance when properly used.)

Also, anybody here ever heard of a walking horse? A Tennessee Walker, a Fox Trotter? They were developed as a breed rather recently, but were prized for their ability to cover ground fast without roughing up the rider, developed by gentlemen plantation owners. You could cut a diamond while riding a Walker going full out. And they can be big: Ginger was a Fox Trotter about 16 hands with a butt like a truck. My boyfriend of 6ft 4in looked perfectly sized on her. Mary was a Walker and about the size of a Thoroughbred, 16.5 I think. I almost had to stand on a box to get up there, but I'm short...

I'd go on trail rides with my folks and their Walker Club. And they're all gliding along the trail like it's no big deal, and I'm huffing and puffing along behind them on my Quarter Horse, getting the stuffing bounced out of me. I think they were amazed I could keep up at all. My horse was like riding a jack hammer, I took up English just so I could post and not look silly. (Posting is what people do English style, when they bob up and down with the horse, to keep from getting their butts worn out. It's harder work to look graceful Western style - it's more on the horse to give you a smooth ride...and I'm going off topic.)

Since this story is a fantasy, the writer can say the horse is just about anything, the saddle is anything that works.

And my two cents on kidnapping - you didn't say how big your victim was...that makes a lot of difference. A small woman might be placed in front of the rider, but if your vic is any bigger, I don't think so. If she is sat on the horse behind the rider, she might try to escape by sliding off the rear. Or if inexperienced, might just bounce off the rear anyway! I would suggest tying the person's hands and throwing her across the rider's lap. Or tying the hands to the saddle of a second horse. If her hands are tied to the saddle and the kidnapper has the reins, you don't have to worry about escape.

Or perhaps, she hangs on for dear life on this wild ride, worried more about what the kidnapper would do to her than the brusing she would take hitting the ground.

stldenise said:

Since this story is a fantasy, the writer can say the horse is just about anything, the saddle is anything that works.

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They sure can, but then where does reality end and fantasy begin? Why not conceive of horses that don't even touch the ground at all? Winged ones? Six-legged ones? When is a horse not a horse?

For a gaited horse in a medieval setting? I'd find an Icelandic pony-type more realistic than a Saddlebred/Walker in that case. Oops, did I say "realistic"?

My experience is that an inexperienced rider won't make ten miles on a galloping horse behind a rider.

Period.

End of story.

They'll simply fall off. If they are inexperienced, they can't find their seat, they're being pounded by whatever form the cantle of your imaginary saddle takes (And I OWN and regularly ride McClellan saddles).

An EXPERIENCED rider can manage it - fairly well - but they must cooperate with the rider - AND - a willing horse. Not all horses will allow a rider on their rump when they canter.

So the solution as others have indicated, is an unconcious kidnappee, belly over a saddled second horse. Why saddled? The pommel and cantle (however slight) will provide some security for the body slipping fore and aft. Might want to pad it out, depending on how much you care about the well being of your abductee. Ten miles is a reasonable change, but I'd suggest shorter. The pony express distances were trained riders with willing mounts over more or less 'known' terrain.

Changing horses, swapping the 'body' - all of this takes time. Time the pursuing riders won't have to stop in.

So, essentially - its not a real good plan. A short getaway, then some sort of diversion to throw them off. A change in direction perhaps - a hideout while an accomplice with two horses leads them on a wild goose chase to throw them off, while you and your abductee rest/recuperate/double back - whatever.


Long ago, while doing a joust show at a faire, the owner wanted the winner of the joust to ride out of the arena with a beautiful maiden seated on the back of the horse behind him.

This presented several problems.

Two of our six horses, simply would not accept a 'double' ride. The balked and bucked at having someone sit that far back - so it was a given that the winner on those horses couldn't perform this wonderfull stage exit.

The next problem was who to get to sit behind the winning knight. Needless to say, there were several 'court ladies' - all to0 willing to have their moment in the spotlight, riding out of the arena behind the armored knight. The 'stage' from which they made their mount was about seven feet above the arena surface. Perfect for simply 'hopping on' behind the knight.

On the appointed 'audition' day - Five ladies - all who assured me they had been riding since they were little girls - showed up for the audition. I backed my mount up to the stage , and told the first one. "Hop on".

She missed and fell in the sand.

I allowed her to get back up, and gently lower herself on to my very patient horse.

"Grab hold" I told her.

She wrapped her hands around my waist and said "I'm ready."

"Are you sure?"

"Yep"

I put the heels to my mare, and off we went.

She went ass over teakettles into the sand behind me. Fortunately, it was a VERY soft and sandy arena.

"Next" - I asked.

One lady just left.

The next one, grit her teeth and lowered herself onto the mount.

She gave me a death grip.

"Lets go -" she said.

We made it to the first 'turn' of our victory lap, and she started to slip off - dragging me with her. My horse was really accomodating, and hooked inside the lap, tossing her forward, almost pulling me off.

"Next -" I said.

Long story short - the "lady" we got to ride behind - was a trained horsewoman who performed with the circus. She had her own horses and show at the faire. I never worried at all about her, when I backed the horse up - she hopped on (wearing a full skirt), and lightly rested her left hand on my sword belt.

We would do a victory lap at full gallop, me with a sword raised high, and her waiving at the crowd with one hand, smiling all the while. We exited at a full gallop - made a hard left behind a blind wall, and a screeching reining halt before we hit a barn wall - and she never fell, was never a burden and never a worry.

All to say it takes a skilled rider on a willing mount to make a smooth fast exit riding behind a saddle.