After reading "the Dark Knight Withdrawal" thread I'm wondering: anyone else hate it?

RR777

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Okay... I just DO NOT get all the drooling over "The Dark Knight!" My thirteen year old daughter and I are huge comic book movie fans and so we were both very eager to see this movie. Off we went accompanied by my wife who was also anxious to see it. Let me say that I LOVE Batman, and I especially loved Tim Burton's 1989 movie. That film re-invented Batman for popular culture. It was creative genius and I would say that not only is it a classic but it is a masterpiece. Because I love Batman I really wanted to love TDK. I wanted it to be awesome. I thought BB was a very good film, although not great, and not near Tim Burton's, but I was hopeful that TDK would blow them all out of the water. I can honestly say that I really tried to like it, but after seeing it, while I can't say I hated it, I'm pretty close, and here in point form is why:

- THE PLOT: Before I get into this I must say that I thought Robert Downey Jr.'s comments on the film's plot were hilarious and right on. Google Robert Downey Jr. and The Dark Knight to check it out. Anyways, the plot was IMO crap. There was no over arching story that led up to a climax. The two scenes at the end (the climax?), the bit with the two boats (which was not a bad idea), and the whole scene battling the Joker in the tower, had a VERY TENUOUS connection to the film's main plot (if I can call it that). They were just stuck there at the end. The tower scene itself was just wierd. There was no build up to it, and where did the Joker get all those people, and how did he tie them up like that? Did he do it himself? How is that possible? Did he have people helping him. Where are they, and where did they go? To me the main (not considering the sub-plots here) plot (?) boiled down to this: The Joker's going to blow up this, Batman fails to stop it. The Joker's going to blow up that, Batman fails to stop it. Now he's going to blow this up, oh wait, now he's fighting Batman and Batman captures him. The end. I tell ya... when it got to Joker blowing up the hospital I actually looked at my watch and thought "man this is a long movie and it's getting tedious."

-THE CHARACTERS: Did any of the characters endear themselves to the audience? Not in my books. Let me break it down.
Bruce Wayne: Did NOTHING to endear himself to the audience, he was just there.
Batman: To quote a guy on Facebook, "Batman is no longer a role model for kids. They have made him a violent asshole." Amen! I totally agree. Not only that but I tell you what, I took my 13 year old daughter (who LOVES comic book movies) to see TDK and after the movie, before I even commented, she said: "Pffttt... some hero Batman is... he didn't even really do anything till the end of the movie and by then I didn't care." I felt the same way. What kind of super hero can't even rescue the girl? (I know, I know... it was part of the making of Two-Face... whatever! The hero should at least be able to rescue the girl for crying out loud) And for the record, that over-the-top Batman growling boarders on ridiculous. Frikin' guy can't even stay on his bike! F-
Racheal Dawe Ugghhh... horrible performance. The worst in the film. No spark, no personality... and Bruce and Harvey are madly in love with this girl? Please!
Joker: Keep all that Hollywood hype nonsense about Heath's incredible performance yadda, yadda, yadda... I call it Clockwork Orange plagerization! Jack Nicholson was creepy, scary, and hilarious all at the same time, unlike Heath's ONE NOTE performance. He was the same from the beginning of the film to the end. "But wait..." some say, "notice that he hated his father, that gives him depth!" Nonsense! Simplistic! A one note performance.
Commissioner Gordon: Ahhh Comissioner Gordon... you might have been a good character if we had got to know you a bit better, and ESPECIALLY YOUR FAMILY, but unfortunately the film makers only had your wife open the door a couple of times, and your son only showed his face once. Made it kinda hard to connect and really care at the end when they were in trouble.
Harvey Dent: The only character I thought was remotely endearing.

-THE LACK OF HUMOUR. There was none. Which leads me to say...

-IT WAS NOT FUN.

-THE LOOK OF THE FILM: Burton's film was dark in tone but it still had color to it, lot's of color, and it was beautiful to look at. TDK is just dull in plot and in colors.

-THE SCORE: The music in TDK was TOTALLY forgettable, in fact some of the action scenes had no music, unlike Elfman's incredible soundtracks for Burton's films.

-Last but not least I have to get this off my chest. I over looked it in BB because that film was at least pretty good but I'm not going to over look it in this pile of dung... THE BATMOBILE. Give me a break! The Batmobile should be (and always has been...) a sleek, and awesome sports car, the kind that every fanboy would like to have in his driveway, not some clunky, cumbersome, tank-like, military assault vehicle! That thing SUCKS! Trash it now please!

In conclusion I would like to say that I would take Burton's Batman over that tedious, dour, morous, humourless, and anarchistic pile of sh*t any day!

Am I alone in this opinion?
 
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katiemac

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That's funny. Your dislike list largely makes up my "it was awesome" list. I'll try to be succinct. :)

I'm curious if you're familiar with the comics themselves, rather than the movie versions. The films are Comic Book Lite and most of them treat the books with less depth than some of the more important arcs deserve. There's something to be said if you're looking for a lighter action-adventure movie, like Iron Man or the Spider-man flicks, but those comics and Batman are truly much darker than the films show. (Iron Man is a depressive alcoholic, Spider-man "fails to save" his first fiance--actually, he kind of kills her by accident.)

So where other comic book films chose to glaze over some heavier fare, Dark Knight embraced Batman's story arcs and pushed them.

The PLOT, to me, was mostly thematic. We're talking Batman vs. The Joker. This is the match-up of the century. The Batman and The Joker are complete opposites--the fact that Batman fails to thwart the Joker is because he doesn't understand how he operates. The Joker knows the Batman better. The line of the movie: "We're destined to do this forever" is perfect. There's no beating The Joker or beating Batman because they really can't exist without each other. It's about putting dichotomies together ... Batman vs. Joker, Bruce Wayne vs. Batman, Harvey Dent vs. Two-Face and seeing what happens.

Moving on to CHARACTERS. :)

Bruce Wayne is not an endearing guy by nature. Whereas Spider-man is the costume and Peter Parker our loveable guy, Bruce Wayne is the costume to Batman. Neither is supposed to be truly likeable--Bruce Wayne acts like a jerk just so people won't get that he's Batman. I agree Batman and Bruce weren't around as much as Batman Begins. This was as much Gordon's film as it was Batman's as they fight Joker/Two-Face.

Batman: Welcome to the darker version of the character. He does whatever it takes to save the day, except for killing people. He does this because there are too many criminals--he knows he can't win. Rachel Dawes was a creation of the filmmakers and doesn't exist in the comics. Her death isn't about Bruce/Batman having a normal life, because that's impossible. Her death is a device they can use to fuel his determination. In the end, that's more important to his character development than the thought they could ever be together.

The Joker: One note? *dies inside* Okay, I really can't say anything here except that his performance is unbelievable. It's brilliant. "One note" is way, way off in my book. Not a cartoonish version like some have said of Nicholson. If you haven't seen this guy perform in any other film, or even seen an interview with him in real life, I suggest you seek one out. The Joker isn't supposed to have backstory--"didn't like my father" is a lie. Or maybe it wasn't. That's the thing with the Joker--you aren't supposed to know. His chaotic drive with no reasonable explanation is what makes this guy a scary SOB.

Commissioner Gordon: I'll say the same as above--he's great! It was as much his film. His drive, his push, his desire to do anything it takes (within more rules than the Batman operates). The grief he went through realizing he couldn't save Harvey Dent... Seriously, I loved this side of Gordon. I think the first time I saw the film I caught a little choked up when Gordon sees what Two-Face has become, and has his "You were the best of us" line. Gary Oldman is amazing.

It had a few moments of humor, but yeah, this wasn't a typical happy popcorn flick. It's not what the movie or Batman is about. Arguably he hasn't been a role model since he debuted in the 40s and definitely not since they rebooted him in the 80s. Same thing goes for the dark images, screens, everything Nolan used to film with. This Batman and Gotham City are dark, gritty, nasty. It's not as bright as Spider-Man's NY. The Batmobile is not my favorite. But the Batpod... that's another story.

So NO in summary, I don't agree, but I think what we wanted out of the movie was largely different, anyway. I wanted a dark depiction of the characters and situations. I'm guessing you expected more of the comic book movies they've been making. Don't be surprised if this one kickstarts other comic book films into digging deeper into some of the dark mythos and that surrounds their characters.

Oh... and don't go see Watchmen. :)
 
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FTL

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What kind of super hero can't even rescue the girl? (I know, I know... it was part of the making of Two-Face... whatever! The hero should at least be able to rescue the girl for crying out loud)


How can the hero rescue the girl when the bad guy switches the addresses on him? The Joker purposely gave Batman the wrong address so Harvey would hate Batman for coming to get him and not Rachael.

I don't agree with a lot of stuff here.

However, the Batman voice did get annoying after awhile.

I thought TDK was excellent the first time I saw it, but it wore off the 2nd time around--but I still like it. I think it's very good.
 

nevada

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lets clear up some things. In teh tower? the people who have guns taped to their hands and who have tape over their mouths and masks on to make them look like the bad guys are the patients and doctors who are on the bus that is missing, that the joker got on after he blew up the hospital. The people dressed as doctors and patients supposedly being held hostage are the actual bad guys. All this is clearly said by either batman, lucius fox, or the SWAT team. But I suppose by that time you stopped paying attention.

Nicholson was never scary. He was bright, and loud, silly but never scary. Heath Ledger's Joker was a character who actually scared me. Not a lot of people scare me. And as for hating his father? Maybe thats what you got out of it but it's clear from the very different stories he tells that he's simply making it up.

The batmobile has to be a sports car? Why? Cause it's so in the comic books? A sports car just isn't realistic for what you want the bat mobile to be able to do.

Maggy Guylenhaal, no spark? She's smart, she's extremely courageous, she's the only one who stood up to the joker, didn't see any men stepping up there. She's loyal, she's kind. Kim Bassinger on the other hand, now that was a one note performance. Screaming does not acting make.

Gary Oldham is so brilliant, so entrenched in his role, so incredibly natural an actor, that you think you didn't learn anything about him, but in fact you learned a lot about his loyalty to his men, his dedication to the law, his love for his family. The length's he'll go to to protect the innocent and punish the guilty. But Gary Oldham makes it look so easy that he never hits you over the head with it and you might forget how powerful his performance actually is.

What you seem to forget is that Batman is not a superhero. He is an ordinary man of whom extraordinary things are demanded. He's going to make mistakes, he's going to hurt, he's going to make the wrong decisions. He is not Superman, which is why superman is a boring movie. Perfect is boring.

The overarching theme is about evil vs good, redemption, what people think they want and what they really need. All of which is very neatly presented in the dilemma of the two boats. The most violent offenders in Gotham city did not blow up the other boat, in fact they threw out the device. The supposedly ordinary citizens were the ones who were all for blowing up the criminals. It's about forgiveness and how far that can go. Or not go in the case of Harvey Dent.

I agree the voice wasn't great.

So yeah, I think you're the 1/2% who didn't like it. lol
 
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Zoombie

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<shakes his head>

Reen, how could you betray me like this!

<sobs>

Actually, I can understand why you and others don't like this movie. Personally, I loved it, even if I thought the entire China scene could have been cut out completely.

Now I'm gonna go watch it...again...
 

Sheryl Nantus

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meh.

the hubby and I will probably rent it, but he's a big Batman fan and just looked at me while watching the previews and said "He's nothing but a thug in this. No detective work at all. What happened to the World's Greatest Detective?"

spent the money seeing Iron Man again. Well worth it.

:)

but we're old comic book fogies, after all...
 

Calla Lily

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I hated every minute of it except the scenes with Commissioner Gordon. BUT I've never been a Batman fan--the DH wanted to go, so I went with him. He puts up with all my MST3Ks, after all. :D
 

ManyAk

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I disagree with most of the points you mentionned, especially the lack of humour in the movie.
 

Celia Cyanide

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As the OP of the "Dark Knight Withdrawl" thread, I obviously disagree with most of what you said, except, like KatieMac, most of what you hated is what made the movie great.

I have heard many criticisms of the movie that hinge on, "It's not fun." Let me explain. Batman is not fun. He's crazy. He's not the Punisher, but he sure as hell ain't Superman. He's not a role model, and his comic books aren't fun, either. He's flawed, and he's violent. It's fair enough that you don't like it that way, but it's not inaccurate. That's the way he is.

Rachel Dawes is a made up character who comes off like a Mary Sue in a girly fan fiction. I do agree there.

As for the Joker, let me say that I'm a huge fan of BATMAN '89, and one of my favorite things about Dark Knight-Mania is that it reminds me is Batmania in the '80s. Michael Keaton is still my favorite Batman, and always will be. I have a great respect for Jack Nicholson and his Joker. BUT...Heath Ledger is the REAL Joker. Jack Nicholson's Joker is, in no way, a representation of the comic book come to life. The Joker is not a gangster, and he has no name.

You say you love comic book movies, but honestly, as a comic book fan, I'd say your reasons for hating this movie represent exactly why I hate almost all comic book movies and wish Hollywood would stop making them. People who love "fun" comic book movies seem to think they know how superheros are supposed to be portrayed, when they aren't familiar with the source material. Some comics and some superheros are fun. Some are not, and Batman is one of them. Dark Knight is a complex crime drama. It bears no relation to Iron Man, or anything of the sort. It just happens to be based on a similar medium.
 
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Jcomp

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Months later, this movie is still the hot topic. Brings a tear to my eye.

Not everyone's going to love it. That's obviously okay, I love it enough for everyone who doesn't...
 

Celia Cyanide

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I love it MORE!!!!! :)

Of course not everyone's going to love it, but why would this movie bother anyone so much when there's crap like Batman and Robin out in the world?

ETA: Number fourteen tonight. Can't wait. I'm going with someone who hasn't seen it yet.
 

maxmordon

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Months later, this movie is still the hot topic.

A shameful fate for a modern classic, though at least is not in the second-hand Blockbuster sales along Spanglish

(Though, to be fair; I have found great movies selling there; like Dark City and I Love Huckabees)

To the OP, nobody takes the merit to Burton's Batman, I mean, he pretty much revived the Superhero genre after people was standing with Supermana meets Richard Pryor. But not all comic films are about fun, great stories can be told through comics. Was Watchmen about fun and a tale of good and evil? No, the exact opposite; and don't make me start with Maus or V from Vendetta.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy as the next person a good morality tale with masked adventurers. But serious stories can be told with this media, it's like Sci-Fi and Fantasy, that were regarded almost exclusively to something that only kids and teenagers could care about when passed to cinema. But we have great examples that this is not the case with Blade Runner and Lord of the Rings, and superheros are not the exception in cinema, is just now that people are seeing this.

Besides, everyone has its view on Batman; it's not the same one from The Animated Series than the one from the 1960's TV show. That's part of the beauty, and perhaps a bit of the horror. It something far larger and immortal that its own creators...
 

DeleyanLee

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I didn't hate TDK, but I'm not in love with it either. Seeing it once was enough.

PLOT: My biggest problem with the movie was the lack of cohesion in the story telling towards the middle of the movie. Someone did a really lousy job of bridging the two parts of the movie together because when the Joker gets caught and brought into the police station, I thought it was over. The story was over. I didn't see any story threads hanging from before that warranted the lull of the Joker in jail, the questioning, etc. It went on just long enough for me to start getting irked that the credits weren't running yet.

When the seeds planted in the start of that sequence started sprouting, though, I lost my annoyance and was back on for the ride

A good storyteller (be it the director, writers, editors, whoever) wouldn't've allowed that lag in the middle.

CHARACTERS: I wanted to see more of Bale (and Gordon for that matter) because I'd enjoyed his work in BB and because I'm sick of superhero sequels that focus more on the baddies than on the hero. Ledger's Joker was an inspired interpretation of the character and he convinced me that this man was an embodiment of Pure Chaos, which I found fascinating. I'm still not sure I liked it, but it was fascinating. The girl was forgettable, but she was also forgettable from the first movie, so she was just status quo to me. I was just as happy she died.

While I don't expect Batman to be a role model (vigilantes really shouldn't be, after all), I left the movie thoughtful about the interpretation, impressed by various elements, but over-all disappointed because of the serious glitch in pacing and the realization that without Ledger that there would be no "rematch".
 

Jcomp

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He wasn't really a role model then, either. In his first incarnation, he killed people. He didn't even have his "one rule" then.

Exactly. Hell...

batman2.jpg

Not only did he kill people, he didn't even give them a decent chance to see it coming or fight back. Batman was a jerk...​
 

maxmordon

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Ironically, they made up the "no killing" joke because the editor liked The Joker so much... ;) the circle completes...
 

Jcomp

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It's tough to have recurring villains when Batman is constantly swooping in to blindside them with a Flying Murder-Kick.

Of course, he used to use guns pretty freely too.
 

maxmordon

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Not only did he kill people, he didn't even give them a decent chance to see it coming or fight back. Batman was a jerk...​

And Superman is a dick

Your comment of Batman: The Mass Muderder is true, although it would have left the Gotham citizens affraid of even loitering
 

James81

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Lack of Humor?

"I'm going to make this pencil disappear..."

*clap clap clap* @ commisioner Gordon

Joker in a nurse outfit

"Whoah, he missed!" *18 wheeler takes a nose-dive...

SLaughter

Lots of subtle humor.

Heath's performance wasn't Hollywood hype. He COMPLETELY disappeared into the character. It was the best performance I've ever seen by anyone. The fact that he is dead or alive or that Hollywood has hyped it up doesn't change that one iota for me.

This movie was 2 and half hours of pure entertainment that had me on the edge of my seat in the theaters FIVE different times.

If you didn't like it, that's fine. Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

But this movie is definately the litmus by which all other comic book movies need to be made.
 

Celia Cyanide

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It was the best performance I've ever seen by anyone.

Ditto that. It was as amazing as anything I've seen Johnny Depp or James Dean do.

The fact that he is dead or alive or that Hollywood has hyped it up doesn't change that one iota for me.

I didn't believe the hype, and I was skeptical about him, until I saw him, and he completely blew me away. I didn't think the Joker could EVER be brought to life on screen, but he did it.

This movie was 2 and half hours of pure entertainment that had me on the edge of my seat in the theaters FIVE different times.

Me too! Except...with me, it was THIRTEEN different times...;)

But this movie is definately the litmus by which all other comic book movies need to be made.

Yes, it is. Comic book movies need to stop being standard popcorn fare you bring your kids to, and start being Best Picture material.
 

FTL

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And as for hating his father? Maybe thats what you got out of it but it's clear from the very different stories he tells that he's simply making it up.


He is lying....I read somewhere that every time Heath said the story he would look up and to his left or something, a trait that chronological liars have.
 

childeroland

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- THE PLOT: Before I get into this I must say that I thought Robert Downey Jr.'s comments on the film's plot were hilarious and right on. Google Robert Downey Jr. and The Dark Knight to check it out. Anyways, the plot was IMO crap. There was no over arching story that led up to a climax. The two scenes at the end (the climax?), the bit with the two boats (which was not a bad idea), and the whole scene battling the Joker in the tower, had a VERY TENUOUS connection to the film's main plot (if I can call it that). They were just stuck there at the end. The tower scene itself was just wierd. There was no build up to it, and where did the Joker get all those people, and how did he tie them up like that? Did he do it himself? How is that possible? Did he have people helping him. Where are they, and where did they go? To me the main (not considering the sub-plots here) plot (?) boiled down to this: The Joker's going to blow up this, Batman fails to stop it. The Joker's going to blow up that, Batman fails to stop it. Now he's going to blow this up, oh wait, now he's fighting Batman and Batman captures him. The end. I tell ya... when it got to Joker blowing up the hospital I actually looked at my watch and thought "man this is a long movie and it's getting tedious."

It was made clear throughout the film that Joker was building his organization -- and the kidnapped people were the Engels news team snatched with the reporter at the hospital.


Bruce Wayne: Did NOTHING to endear himself to the audience, he was just there.

Wayne was not supposed to endear himself -- he's an obsessive who fronts as a jerk to hide his vigilante activities.


Batman: To quote a guy on Facebook, "Batman is no longer a role model for kids. They have made him a violent asshole." Amen! I totally agree. Not only that but I tell you what, I took my 13 year old daughter (who LOVES comic book movies) to see TDK and after the movie, before I even commented, she said: "Pffttt... some hero Batman is... he didn't even really do anything till the end of the movie and by then I didn't care." I felt the same way. What kind of super hero can't even rescue the girl? (I know, I know... it was part of the making of Two-Face... whatever! The hero should at least be able to rescue the girl for crying out loud) And for the record, that over-the-top Batman growling boarders on ridiculous. Frikin' guy can't even stay on his bike! F-

Batman's an extremely flawed hero who often makes mistakes, as Alfred makes clear to him at the start of the film. And why does he automatically have to rescue the girl, like he would in a thousand other films? He is something of a violent asshole, which is part of the point of the character, and close to his original conception in the comics. As to not doing something, his chasing down the mob and then the Joker... The growling was to hide Wayne's voice, though one does wonder why he doesn't just use an electronic device of some sort. YMMV, but it didn't bother me that much. As to the bike, he merely did not want to run down the Joker, not seeing himself as a murderer.


Racheal Dawe Ugghhh... horrible performance. The worst in the film. No spark, no personality... and Bruce and Harvey are madly in love with this girl? Please!

MG was okay, but then I didn't hate Katie Holmes the way others did. I didn't get all the love for her either, but that didn't really bother me.


Joker: Keep all that Hollywood hype nonsense about Heath's incredible performance yadda, yadda, yadda... I call it Clockwork Orange plagerization! Jack Nicholson was creepy, scary, and hilarious all at the same time, unlike Heath's ONE NOTE performance. He was the same from the beginning of the film to the end. "But wait..." some say, "notice that he hated his father, that gives him depth!" Nonsense! Simplistic! A one note performance.

YMMV

Commissioner Gordon: Ahhh Comissioner Gordon... you might have been a good character if we had got to know you a bit better, and ESPECIALLY YOUR FAMILY, but unfortunately the film makers only had your wife open the door a couple of times, and your son only showed his face once. Made it kinda hard to connect and really care at the end when they were in trouble.

Maybe, but the point of the scene was primarily saving Harvey, and it's nice not to have the kiddie element in a superhero film for a change.

-THE LACK OF HUMOUR. There was none. Which leads me to say...

-IT WAS NOT FUN.

The pencil trick, the scar stories, the serious examination of vigilantism...

-THE LOOK OF THE FILM: Burton's film was dark in tone but it still had color to it, lot's of color, and it was beautiful to look at. TDK is just dull in plot and in colors.

:?:

-THE SCORE: The music in TDK was TOTALLY forgettable, in fact some of the action scenes had no music, unlike Elfman's incredible soundtracks for Burton's films.

I loved the score, but diff strokes...

-Last but not least I have to get this off my chest. I over looked it in BB because that film was at least pretty good but I'm not going to over look it in this pile of dung... THE BATMOBILE. Give me a break! The Batmobile should be (and always has been...) a sleek, and awesome sports car, the kind that every fanboy would like to have in his driveway, not some clunky, cumbersome, tank-like, military assault vehicle! That thing SUCKS! Trash it now please!

Why does the Batmobile have to be a sleek sports car?

In conclusion I would like to say that I would take Burton's Batman over that tedious, dour, morous, humourless, and anarchistic pile of sh*t any day!

Am I alone in this opinion?

In what way is it anarchistic?

Not everyone need love the same films. I never saw the big deal about Iron Man or the Hulk reboot, but of course many others love them *shrug*
 
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Zoombie

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I always loved how the two stories might be completely untrue...or completely true.

Cause, if you notice, the two scars on either side of his face are shaped differently...