Critique group woes

Why not just ignore her critique?

I agree. Just say "thanks, I'll take that into consideration" and chuck it in the bin.

Can you just say, "I understand this book isn't something you enjoy and that's fine, really. But it's probably not in either of our best interests if you spend your time reading and critiquing it."

Sometimes hurting one member of a group can carry over with everyone else, especially if all have been working together for a long time. I saw it happen once. And the lady in question was in her mid seventies and partly deaf. When she left, she took a lot of the heart from our group. And she took a lot of experience in understanding life situations we often write about.

I don't know exactly what was said that drove her away, because I was not at group that day and no one was talking later on. I do know one or two didn't like her feedback, but I always thought it would have been better for them to take it, smile and say thank you, and then ignore it than to have caused a rift that took years to get past.

If other feedback from the group is valuable, it's worth trying not to disrupt the group just to have that. Maybe the situation will improve.

I think that telling her not to critique your work would be rude and unnecessary. Even if you don't get anything useful from her critiques, I find that critiquing others' work always gives me a fresh insight into my own. I don't see how cutting her off would do anything other than hurt her feelings and hurt the group dynamic.

Wow, I have the exact same problem with my crit group. I'm the only SF/Horror writer in the bunch and these two older ladies HATE my stuff. All they write about is their dead relatives and I always try to be super helpful but they've never returned the favor. Grrr, so frustrating. I told them flat out that their comments aren't helpful to me, and pointed out the crits that have helped (the rest of the group is great). Now they go into a lot less detail about why they hate the violence and monsters etc.

I really do think it makes sense to scale efforts to fit results. If there is a person where the exchange his little worth, you both need to make less effort there. If you scaled back in responding to her crits, and giving her yours, it might give her permission to do the same. Otherwise you are both locked into doing things that you aren't benefiting from much, or enjoying.

I joined a marvelous critique group many years ago. One of the members was a retired gentleman who wrote westerns, and absolutely did not "get" fantasy, my genre of choice. The first time I read pages to the group, he looked at me with a quizzical expression, and asked, "What drugs were you on when you wrote this?"

Karen Duvall said:

She writes some interesting stuff, though it's literary and I have a hard time getting into it. And the usual craft points like character conflict and scene structure are things she's not particularly interested in adhering to. The rest of us are like broken records when we repeat our criticisms over the same issues ad nauseum, but she doesn't seem to notice. Isn't the definition of insanity to repeat the same action and expect a different result each time?

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I'm not in a critique group, so I can't comment on that dynamic, but... I do have two elderly grandparents and I attend a Bible study that's mostly little old ladies. So my advice is to keep very, very much in mind that she's in her mid-seventies. Please forgive me for making blanket assumptions based on age, but a great many people, at this age, are very, very set in their ways. It's like it gets harder and harder to change and adapt the older you get. So for her to adapt in any way to your storytelling, which is new to her, will be very difficult, if not impossible. You're just not going to succeed on that front. In my Bible study, we have one woman who is in her eighties (everyone else is mostly sixties). She's a very sweet lady, still all together mentally, but the things she says often don't really go with what we're talking about, or she'll have misheard something, or misunderstood the question... anyway, the rest of us just give her an extra measure of grace because we respect her age and we know it's amazing that she even has the dedication to do something like this at her stage in life (our study is fairly intensive).

So anyway I guess my point is, if she wants to read and critique, let her. Thank her, be polite, and take what you can from it, knowing her limitations.

I have no experience with critique groups, I'm afriad. But tons of experience with old ladies. Just remember this, to her television, answering machines and computers were all "strange creatures" at one point in time.

Is ther some way she CAN be of use to you? Like, if you ask her to look at one specific aspect of your writing, ignoring the fantastical elements she doesn't grasp?

Incidentally, my own mother is nowhere near 70, and yet the technological divide between us periodically leaves me screaming. Silently. In my brain.

Karen Duvall said:

I just hate for her to go through all the trouble of reading my work and upsetting herself.

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It's entirely her decision whether she wants to read it, especially after you offered her a face-saving way to avoid upsetting herself.

Continue to make the offer, and continue to accept her decisions about her own behavior.

Dale

It's tough, Karen. When I was invited to join the group I'm with, they were mostly poets and literary short-story writers. I mainly write history and fantasy novels. I also used UK English, still do. I found the poets' critiques very helpful, but the literary ladies gave me nothing I could use. Gradually, a few more members joined who also wrote fantasy. By listening to our critiques of each other, and the occasional reference to published fantasy authors, some literary ladies chose to learn and get with the program. Some also left the group.

I think, when you join a group, you should be prepared to expand your mind to encompass genres you may not have read before and learn about them. Not everyone can do that, regardless of age, and those who can't should restrict their comments. If you don't understand something, how can you possibly offer help?

In the groups I've attended and run, a core rule was:

Do NOT criticize anyone's choice of genre or subject matter.

A remark like "What drugs were you on when you wrote this?" is unacceptable. It's tough enough to put your work on the line without ducking tedious barbs like that. Sometimes, I've found, the barbs can disguise themselves as constant questions about what's going on in the story. This can wear the writer down fast, and she has no good way to call the insidious complainer on them -- hey, isn't a critiquer supposed to point out what's confusing?

For a young or inexperienced genre writer in a group without other genre writers, the experience can be damaging. He can come to think that no one understands his work because it's not understandable. He may not realize that the fault lies with the critiquers, not himself. Ditto with a literary or experimental writer in a group of people who don't appreciate these modes.

In my experience, most writers can understand most writing, whether it's the genre they usually read or not. They CAN deal with the genre; they just don't want to. The crucial thing is the desire to understand and be helpful, to address what you can and leave the rest to others, and to have the sensibility not to constantly swat the poor writer with "Well, this isn't really my thing" or the like.

Groups confined to one genre can be very helpful, though even these may divide into subgenre camps. For me, the ideal group would include writers of a number of genres, because when these are working, the hybrid vigor can be amazing.

A group leader should watch out for the "not my thing" dynamic and nip it in the bud the way a gardener nips out unsightly sprigs. The result is a fuller, healthier, more beautiful plant.

Feeling your pain, Karen. If you have a group leader, maybe you could discuss this with him or her. Older groups like yours do tend to have "bad" habits or interactions which the group has come to tacitly accept for the sake of cohesion. Often it's new members or outside observers who can point these out.

Anyhow, failing any real change, I'd just smile and accept the woman's crits, scan them for helpful grammar suggestions, and ignore the rest. Meanwhile, continuing to give HER work your full attention and best effort will earn you enormous writing karma points.

I am 85 and can understand (more or less) fantasy although I have trouble with unpronouncable character names. However, I don't care for the genre, don't read in it and don't feel qualified to crit. I have the same problem with sci/fi.

I just say so and let the next critter take over.

historian

Historian -I had a post done re an on-line group site you and I used to belong to, but deleted it only seconds before you posted. What an incredible coincidence!

It was virtually saying the same thing as you have said, only expanded to say I regarded the grammar and logic comments you did make to be invariably smack on the button, extremely helpful and well worth careful consideration. I give you a belated and sincere thank you.

historian said:

I am 85 and can understand (more or less) fantasy although I have trouble with unpronouncable character names. However, I don't care for the genre, don't read in it and don't feel qualified to crit. I have the same problem with sci/fi.

I just say so and let the next critter take over.

historian

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