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gwendy85
10-11-2008, 07:39 PM
Yeah, you read right :D I want a near fatal gunshot wound for my character. Weapon would be a Japanese Nambu, .8mm calibre. I need the bullet to hit my character somewhere in the torso where it would cause him to fall unconscious almost immediately. Or how about somewhere in the head or neck which won't do permanent damage?

Basically, I need a near fatal gunshot wound that will almost immediately cause my character to pass out but won't cause permanent damage.

Appreciate the input guys. Thanks ;)

ideagirl
10-11-2008, 07:41 PM
Yeah, you read right :D I want a near fatal gunshot wound for my character. Weapon would be a Japanese Nambu, .8mm calibre. I need the bullet to hit my character somewhere in the torso where it would cause him to fall unconscious almost immediately. Or how about somewhere in the head or neck which won't do permanent damage?

Basically, I need a near fatal gunshot wound that will almost immediately cause my character to pass out but won't cause permanent damage.

Appreciate the input guys. Thanks ;)


I wouldn't go with the neck or even the torso, in that case. Too many arteries and other sensitive areas (e.g., intestines/stomach--shots there are very bad). Try a shot that grazes his head--the impact might knock him out, but as long as the bullet doesn't go into his skull, the damage shouldn't be lasting.

HeronW
10-11-2008, 07:49 PM
Passing out is easy, recovering can be harder.
A head or body graze combined with the impact force can knock someone down--the fall can impact on metal or stone like a bench or statue and knock out the char. From a distance, to the shooter it will look like a good shot, head wounds bleed alot, and can look messy and fatal.

Any arterial hits: jugular, renal, femoral and the person has 3-5 minutes to live, usually passed out in 2.

A through and through collapsing a lung will leave one lung working. Or a shoulder shot will disable that arm for a while.

You don't want anything below the diaphragm--that opens the gastrointestinal system introducing bacterial infection and complications.

You don't want a direct bone hit causing splinters--again secondary infections can make things worse.

Other variables are the general health of the person, distance from shooter to person--further away, the bullet loses impact velocity, clothing or items on the person to slow or deflect the bullets, etc.

gwendy85
10-11-2008, 07:58 PM
Hey, thanks guyz! :D I'm hoping a nice head shot would be good.

Here's pretty much the scenario. The character gets shot and gets knocked down. He still has to be conscious for a few seconds. Enough time for him to see another character, begging him to stay awake.

After that, he has to be brought to the hospital. In critical condition.

State of health prior to shot: weak. He already has a lot of stab wounds he's still recovering from, and he had been beat up just a few hours ago (opening some of his wounds). Wounds were treated again and bandaged. Then the shot.

So which would be best? I'm starting to like the idea of a head shot, not at point blank range, but both close enough for a nice shot but far enough for the assailant not to be seen. Then again the scene is surrounded by woods so distance doesn't really matter as long as it's not point blank.

Wow, these are really quick replies! Thanks much guys :D

willfulone
10-11-2008, 08:26 PM
This will depend upon what aftermath you wish for your character. Physically I mean.

There are many, many ways to produce a "knock-out" hit with your bullet, that will cause little damage - but look huge/deadly (like a head graze) to your hit man. And, there are many that can look like little damage (gut shot - which produces blood yes, but does not always cause immediate passing out - but long term suffering) but be deadly or have long periods needed for rehabilitation.

I do not know this weapon/ammunition and do not know it's abilities to tear flesh or such. Thus, I cannot state what would work best. If you expound on it's capabilities and what happens to the ammo when it hits flesh/bone, I might be able to give you some things that may work. Although, maybe not too. Hard to say for sure.

Lung shots do not cause passing out immediately (usually). They cause gasping and labored breathing and heaving of chest in the victim (whether he passed out or not). It would be a clear signal to your "hit man" that the victim is still alive. Thus, they may go in for another shot. So, think on that one, you may not wish to use it. Although, if your victim can control body response in himself (and does NOT pass out), it is not typically a "life threatening" hit if he can get medical attention swiftly enough that over taxing the other lung does not cause IT to collapse as well.

You do not wish to hit the neck I do not think - but maybe. Try to think if any of this will affect such:

The carotiod and jugular are there - one on each side of the neck. Too easy to hit. Unless your hit man shoots and hits the side of the neck or in fleshy part by/below ear area between ear and shoulder. Anything too close to the front and your victim has those arteries and his windpipe to ruin. All, while may cause passing out, also typically (in most cases) means certain death. So, watch that. Also, the neck houses the cervical vertebra. A shot to neck that goes into flesh could cause damage to those vertebra. Cervical veterbra damaged can (and often does) cause paralysis - for life. And, one does not always pass out from such a hit. Although they WOULD lie still. But, afterward they would likely be unable to move some or all of their body for life. But, there ARE people shot in the side of the neck, it exited the other side and only tore flesh and hit nothing major. It will depends what you wish to do here on that type of shot and how your hitman and victim are physically set apart.

You could have your character be hit anywhere on his body in a flesh part (he turned at the last second, whatever) and have him be smart enough to just lie there - without passing out to give the impression he is dead, passed out, whatever you need to work.

You also can take to heart, that no matter what - some people live and never have bad results from "freak" shots that appear no one could survive.

It will all depend upon what you need your character to do immediately following being hit. If you need this character to be relatively "fit" and able to do his/her job and not be hampered by injury causing lengthy rehabilitaton -then you maybe want to consider "faking" a fatal shot. Or a "freak" shot that missed its mark totally but looked like a kill shot.

If part of your story is that this victim recovers to get revenge and that drives some of it, then you can shoot this person just about anywhere and make it so they can live and survive, but passed out for it. People pass out for all sort of reason. Seeing blood, losing blood causes light headed feeling - thus they swoon, pain causes passing out, falling and hitting head from injury (even minor one) would cause passing out, it depends what comes after for you to determine what will work.

What does happen after? Maybe I could provide more physical examples if I know what you need to occur.

I have worked in ERs. I have seen major and catastrophic injury and people survive such. I have also seen people die from a bruise on their leg with no apparent "Signs" of fatal injury. Each has its own physiology.

Let me know if you have specific questions that I can assist with on the physical stuff. The gun/ammunition - I am lost on that. I cannot tell you what they should do, could do or what they are "said" to do. I can only speak from the aftermath part. The actual physical situational results of such.

Tell me what body part, tell me the size of the hole, tell me if the bullet expands and rips and breaks to pepper internal organs, tell me if it is gonna hit bone and such. I will tell you what I have seen as a result of such. Physically I mean.

Although a doctor (I am not one - just RCP) could provide you substantial info - especially one running an ER.

Good luck!!

Christine

willfulone
10-11-2008, 08:27 PM
I see I was composing while you were replying - iggy my post then. I do not remove my posts - even when moot. I hate to do so.

Good luck!

Christine

gwendy85
10-11-2008, 08:55 PM
Wow!!! Thanks much, Christine! That's all very detailed!


If part of your story is that this victim recovers to get revenge and that drives some of it, then you can shoot this person just about anywhere and make it so they can live and survive, but passed out for it. People pass out for all sort of reason. Seeing blood, losing blood causes light headed feeling - thus they swoon, pain causes passing out, falling and hitting head from injury (even minor one) would cause passing out, it depends what comes after for you to determine what will work.

This is exactly what needs to happen. He'll need to recover, but recovery time will take some years so I guess I can go shoot him anywhere. I'm going more for the head shot because I need him to pass out. But...I dunno if this is correct, about the bullet scraping a pit of skull off so they'll kinda need steel plates or something? And this character's a soldier, so he's used to blood and all that so he won't swoon from wounds (like I do...haha) but then again, he is already in a weakened condition. He had several healing stab wounds which were opened from being beat up a few hours from being shot.....

Chase
10-11-2008, 09:51 PM
Gwendy,

The wound itself is a medical question on which I can't claim any expertise, but your choice of firearm and ammunition lends itself to the lesser trauma you seek.

The 8mm Nambu is of course a pistol, so its bullets are "hole-drillers," whereas rifle bullets cause greater shock and trauma.

Furthermore, the Japanese semi-automatic Nambu and ammunition were developed in the early 1900s and were less powerful than revolvers then--or modern magnum handgun ammunition now.

Bouncing a 8mm Nambu round off someone's skull is credible for the wound and effect you want. The victim may crumple immediately and depending on angle and depth of the bounce, recovery could take a while, whereas a high-powered rifle "crease" would usually need to be very shallow not to kill because of the energy potential.

Good choice of guns and ammo.

willfulone
10-11-2008, 10:03 PM
Okay, recovery is goal of this shooting. To set up or drive some of your story. That is good to know. Here are some thoughts to assist (or not) if I can.

He can pass out merely from his blood loss from open wounds from the beating. Or the pain of the beating coupled with blood loss of such. And, this shot could just be the final to send him over to blackness. The final straw that he cannot bear in his already lessened state. For, that is what human physiology would predict. He could withstand so much, until he could not any longer. Everyone has a breaking point where their mind shuts down in order to not feel and to heal.

If you need long recovery - a good shot MAY be to neck, rather than head. Reasons?

A head shot - even if it does not enter the brain entails many variables. And not knowing your gun/ammo - a reader may not believe he only got knocked out. A reader may not believe he does not have brain damage that hampers him in the future. Brain injuries (even closed head ones) do change the physiology of the brain and how it works. Many times this damage is permanent. And, many times the outcome is unpredictable for the victim. There are so many things that would change for a person shot in the head. You will find cases where people will be documented to never have a change - even with a bullet in their brain. But, this is so rare. Mostly, something changes - depending upon brain area injured. If you need your man to be believed to have all his factulties and use of intelligence, control over impulsivity, control over motor functions and the like you should maybe avoid a brain shot. It will not be believable to most who cannot understand that it might happen. For, in most cases brain injury compromise some things at a minimum. And, some things drastically. Typically, it falls somewhere median, but it is typically evident to outsiders that a brain injury has occured.

A neck shot - that incapacitates - possibly paralyzes temporarily (happens often enough to be believable to many):

His recovery could entail the angst(to build his anger), the time and the necessary work to strengthen (his body)from a temporary paralysis from this final blow in the neck. There are many injuries to the neck and vertebra that can be temporary or believed to be permanent and the party DID walk again. With intensive rehabilitation. Perhaps his drive and his prior physical conditioning allowed him to be one of those that could DO such. And, such would entail a lot of pain and work on his part - probably years of it.

I cannot recall the famed runner who had a childhood illness that left her doctors believing she would not walk again (my mind reaches for Jackie Joyner Kersee - but I could be way off on that). Her doctors sent her home with the advice to the mom - make her happy, teach her how to live with this, she will never walk again. And the mama? She said, "She WILL walk again." And the runner said, "I could listen to the doctors or my mama. I chose to listen to her."

Thus, your guy could overcome just like many do. There are enough real life examples of people overcoming injury like this to be believable. Brain injuries are hard to convey and for people to understand with any measure to think your victim could be whole and normal after such.

But, that is just my opinion and take it for what it is worth. My experiences with such may make my opinion too analytical when reading such and I could be way off.

Christine

Deb Kinnard
10-12-2008, 03:56 AM
If you want a "regular-guy" character and not a superman, you can make him like my brother. The shot could hit him in the finger, and if more than 0.5 mm. of blood appears, my brother faints. Instantly. Out like a light.

If, however, you want a guy made of sterner stuff...is he by any chance wearing a bulletproof vest? You didn't say whether he's in law enforcement or not, but I'm told they can take a shot to the chest and survive with no hole. Hurts like the dickens, and you may knock him off his feet & thereby hit his head & cause the passing out...but the shot could hit true.

Your Lolo, by the way, is a very wise man.

gwendy85
10-12-2008, 04:30 PM
Your Lolo, by the way, is a very wise man.
Yeah, he was :) I miss him a lot :cry: This novel is actually very much dedicated to him.



The 8mm Nambu is of course a pistol, so its bullets are "hole-drillers," whereas rifle bullets cause greater shock and trauma.
Furthermore, the Japanese semi-automatic Nambu and ammunition were developed in the early 1900s and were less powerful than revolvers then--or modern magnum handgun ammunition now.
Bouncing a 8mm Nambu round off someone's skull is credible for the wound and effect you want. The victim may crumple immediately and depending on angle and depth of the bounce, recovery could take a while, whereas a high-powered rifle "crease" would usually need to be very shallow not to kill because of the energy potential.
Good choice of guns and ammo.

Thanks Chase. But what do you mean "hole-drillers" and "bounce"? So the Nambu isn't that powerful at all that the bullet can "bounce" off the skull? Hehe, it was just by luck I guess that I had to use a Nambu (owing to the assailan't identity).

And thanks again, Christine, for all that insight! Wow! That's some great detail! I've seen some documentaries in Discovery Channel wherein due to head trauma, a once friendly man became violent and murdered someone because he couldn't control his anger. His lawyer presented his brain scans as evidence and he was acquitted, something about one part of his brain not being able to control aggression anymore due to the trauma.

Though this does present an interesting fact, it's more the character's prior experiences that will eventually lead to a personality change. He becomes tempermental, and yes, very much vengeful.

BTW, as per Chase, of the Nambu bullets bouncing off....so that's just gonna leave some sort of "dent" on the skull?

Thanks again guys :D

hammerklavier
10-12-2008, 05:17 PM
I think he means that the rifle bullet would be traveling so fast it would create shockwaves in your flesh that would really mess you up far away from the actual path of the bullet.

If the bullet hit the skull at enough of an angle instead of straight on, a low power bullet might just bounce off, but would knock the character out. Your senario of "concious for a few moments" probably wouldn't apply. There would be a wound in the skin, possible slight fracture of the skull, etc.

Another idea, if the character is standing by a stone, cinderblock or brick wall, the bullet could strike behind/beside him and bounce off and hit with less force -- as well as some shards from the wall.

roncouch
10-12-2008, 06:44 PM
One 9 mm to the abdomen, but missing the intestines could result in unconsciousness due to blood loss, and shock. However, the unconsciousness would probably not be immediate. I know someone who was shot in this manner.

RJK
10-12-2008, 08:10 PM
Is your MC wearing a helmet?
If he is, let the bad guy shoot him directly in the head with a pistol shot. The impact will feel like getting hit with a heavy hammer, but the pistol round won't penetrate the steel of a WWII helmet and certainly wouldn't penetrate a more modern Kevlar one. It should knock him out but he won't incur any permanent damage. Then you can deal with all his earlier wounds.

Chase
10-12-2008, 08:21 PM
Thanks Chase. But what do you mean "hole-drillers" and "bounce"? So the Nambu isn't that powerful at all that the bullet can "bounce" off the skull? Hehe, it was just by luck I guess that I had to use a Nambu (owing to the assailant's identity).

BTW, as per Chase, of the Nambu bullets bouncing off....so that's just gonna leave some sort of "dent" on the skull?


Yes, handgun bullets are generally lower velocity. Thus, the wound channel tends to be like a hole left by a drill, whereas the bullet of a high-power rifle procduces side-shock to enlarge the wound chanel and increase tissue damage.

The "hole-driller" aspect of the 8mm Nambu is two fold. (1) Semi-automatic bullets of that era were usually full metal jacket rather than soft-nosed lead to reduce possibility of jams during the self-loading operation. (2) Also, to facilitate loading, prevent jams, and avoid broken pistol parts, the loads were not as powerful. All of those factors will tend to increase the survival rate of the victim.

I aplogize for "bounce." It was a confusing metaphor I should not have used.

If you go for a head wound to incapacitate rather than kill your protagonist, it's more credible if the bullet "grazes" the victim's skull. In other words, it strikes a glancing blow which breaks the skin but does not penetrate bone. It may produce a concussion, possibly even a fractured skull.

My comment was that the 8mm Nambu's slower, round-nosed full copper jacket would most likely hold together--not fragment as soft nosed lead bullets might--and be the perfect choice for the injury you described.

Again, I apologize for adding to mega-confusion of the issue.

Chase
10-12-2008, 08:33 PM
Is your MC wearing a helmet?
If he is, let the bad guy shoot him directly in the head with a pistol shot. The impact will feel like getting hit with a heavy hammer, but the pistol round won't penetrate the steel of a WWII helmet and certainly wouldn't penetrate a more modern Kevlar one. It should knock him out but he won't incur any permanent damage. Then you can deal with all his earlier wounds.

RJK's option is a good one. Contrary to popular beliefs (and fictional depictions) steel helmets, flak-jackets, "bullet-proof" glass do nothing to stop even old-fashioned rifle bullets.

But most are effective against pistol, submachinegun, and shotgun projectiles. The bullets don't penetrate body parts, but as RJK said, they hit like sledge hammers. Victims go down in a heap and most lose consciousness, even with hits to the torso.

hammerklavier
10-13-2008, 06:28 PM
Some of the thicker bullet proof glass, and of course, modern tactical body armor would stop rifle bullets.

Donkey
10-13-2008, 07:14 PM
It's not unheard of to have a bullet strike the skull, 'bounce' off, and travel between the skull and the scalp for some distance before punching out again. Just a thought.


Here's pretty much the scenario. The character gets shot and gets knocked down. He still has to be conscious for a few seconds. Enough time for him to see another character, begging him to stay awake.
I see one problem with the scenario you're trying to produce, in terms of a head shot. The trauma of a head shot is immediate, and if it's going to cause unconsciousness, then it's going to happen instantaneously. Boom, and he's out. You want him to remain conscious long enough to see and hear another character, the head shot scenario won't typically work.

Chase
10-13-2008, 08:24 PM
Some of the thicker bullet proof glass, and of course, modern tactical body armor would stop rifle bullets.

At my retirement several years ago, the general public believed anything said to be "bullet-proof" stopped any and all ammunition. It was not true. At that time, glass and body armor of a thickness and weight not to preclude its use would not stop a .30 caliber (7.62) military round. Any protection will help, but it was only best for pistol rounds.

I knew future technology would overcome the average rifle bullet. If it has, terrific.

However, two factors nag at my belief system:

The first is manufacturers' claims have always tended to exaggerate actual performance.

The second is as soon as ammunition is nullified, someone invents a better bullet.

hammerklavier
10-14-2008, 04:50 AM
The second is as soon as ammunition is nullified, someone invents a better bullet.

That is always the case. Of course the idea of body armor to stop a projectile is pretty amazing when you think about it. But not necessarily new, both the silk armor of the mongols and the felt armor of English crusaders (under King Richard) were pretty effective against arrows, whereas metal armor was not.