Teaching people to use a gun

gwendy85

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Hi guyz!

Just a question. How exactly do instructors teach students how to use a gun? By hovering over them, making sure the gun's gripped and aimed correctly and such? Because one of my characters is teaching his girl how to hold a gun, and this is a little romantic scene so I'm thinking of having him behind her the way guys teaching girls to play baseball would look.

Also, the setting is World War II, using World War II guns and rifles. Does that make a difference? What points do the instructors need to stress towards their students?

One last thing. During World War II, of course they had to save bullets. But does anyone know if during these training sessions, actual bullets were used and guns were indeed fired? Scenario would be training both troops and civilian volunteers.

Appreciate the input. Thanks :D
 

FinbarReilly

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1) Yes, privates in basic used ammunition. It's the only way to get them used to the kick of the rifle. I don't understand the term "civilian volunteers" in this context; the military would only only teach soldiers, and civilians wouldn't even be allowed on the firing range unless the military was showing off a new piece of ordinance (and even then the civilian wouldn't be allowed to fire it).

2) The way it'd taught (if you're going for a version of the learning to hit) is how to hold the gun correctly, holding your breath so your breathing doesn't mess with your shooting, and then squeezing the trigger. Once she has that down, then it's time to actually shoot targets, with maybe some instruction in how windage (allowing for the wind) works, and then leading the target (shooting where a moving target will be rather than where it is).

It can take anywhere from a few minutes to an hour depending on how much is taught to how much fun they are having, and anywhere from a few bullets to maybe 20-30.

The only thing to remember is that the teacher would need to hold her loosely; otherwise you risk injury to the student.

FR
 
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Mumut

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There would have to be a time actual bullets were used, at the end of their training. The only way to know how good a traqinee was, was on the firing range. Also with WWII rifles like the .303 the recoil was very heavy and it was essential to have the butt securely in the shoulder or you could hurt yourself.

For a rifle the different firing positions were shown; standing, kneeling, sitting, lying down. Each one is for a specific battle situation. Lying is preferred because the elbows are both on the ground and therefore steadier. For soldiers the positions were taught in relaxed circumstances then in an emergency where you'd have to fling yourself down but still attain the best position possible. And yes. After the explanation, demonstration and a lot of shouting everybody would take up the position on order and the NCO or Officer walk behind them and comment (read 'shout at') as necessary.

A pistol was also demonstrated before the learner takes on in hand but here I think you can have a situation where the teacher could have to stand behind the learner and reach around her body - to adjust how she was taking aim, of course. It was usual to take aim slightly above the target after breathing in then carefully bring the pistol down as you exhale, squeezing the trigger lightly so as not to jerk the gun to one side.

In WWII a pistol would have been used only by an officer, I believe. Foot soldiers carried rifles or submacine guns.
 

Puma

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There would (should) also be some basic gun safety - making sure the safety is on (if there was one, not sure about all WWII guns) until ready to fire, never carelessly pointing the gun at a person or object, never pointing the gun at a person unless she was willing to pull the trigger (and shoot the person), treating the gun with respect. There should also be time spent in how to load, how to clean, and how to clear jams. Hope that helps. Puma
 

dpaterso

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Agree with above, rifle drill comes first, how to handle the weapon safely, how to disassemble and re-assemble, how to clean, how to clear blockages. Then a trip to the firing range where live ammo will be issued. Weapons (especially older issue) need to be tested and their sights calibrated.

Then again, the amount of training probably depends on the location, and on how quickly the volunteer force needs to be organized and dispersed into the jungle (in the face of rapidly advancing enemy troops, perhaps?).

A thought: civilian volunteers already adept at handling firearms might be excused training or may become instructors for other volunteers, supervised by Army instructors.

-Derek
 

sheadakota

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My MC uses guns- lots of them- I never touched one, so I asked my neighbor, an active duty Army Ranger home on leave, if he would mind teaching me how to use a hand gun. He first showed me the weapon, broke it down, made me put it back togther (then made sure I did it right so it wouldn't blow up in my face!) Then showed me how to load it and THEN we went out to the firing range in his back yard - He showed me how to hold it, how to site it and how to fire it- he did not stand behind me and 'show' me how to do it, BUT this is not a touchy feely type of guy- he was all buisness. With that said I don't see why your guy couldn't sneak a little romance in while showing the girl how to site and hold the weapon.

Oh, in case your wondering- I would make a terrible soldier. I hit the target twice out of ten shots, the recoil hurt my wrists and the NOISE! Yikes!
 

jclarkdawe

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If she's being taught WWII pistol, the standard in the Army was the .45. This is not a ladies gun. Hell, it's barely a man's gun. You need to be a fricken gorilla to handle the thing. It has quite the kickback.

Depending on the size of your girl, and especially her hands presents problems. My daughter, who had temporary duty on guard, had a lot of problems with the 9mm. Her hand (she's five foot nothing and doesn't weigh a 100 pounds soaking wet) was too small for the handle. The gunnie who was working her finally came up with an approach within the Navy's guidelines but also that worked for her. It did involve a fair amount of touching as he worked to get her into a position that worked.

As her gun instructor, her uncle (retire Lt.Col. Army), and I kept telling her, for most people, you're more accurate throwing the damn gun at who you want to hit then trying to shoot. Hand guns are very hard to shoot accurately.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe
 

Perks

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I was taught by an ATF agent who scowled a lot and kept three feet of space between us at all times. I am a terrible shot. Perhaps I'd be better if he'd cuddled me through the process. Consequently, I chose a Mossberg 12 gauge as my favorite weapon. (It doesn't matter so much, your accuracy. Just point in the general direction and squeeze. Guaranteed to ruin someone's day without stressing my bionic eye.)
 

Chase

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I was a military firearms instructor, not during WWII, but preceding and during Vietnam. In both eras, there actually was a U.S. civilian marksmanship program, and its instruction was different.

Civilian students didn't typically memorize nomenclature and strip down and reassemble weapons as might be necessary in combat situations. Smaller classes familiarized them with the gun they would fire and its safe handling. It was often a .22 rifle or handgun until the student became more proficient.

I'm still an NRA home safety and personal protection instructor, and I would never let a complete neophyte start out shooting at large bore, a sure way to assure the student is embarassed and frightened and will hate guns forever.

After basic safety instruction would come lots of supervised gun handling and dry fire before shooting lighter loads.

I've never thought of myself as hovering, but I do want to be close enough to prevent a mishap. Yes, it can involve lots of touching to position arms and stance, and sometimes I notice a flush on the necks and faces of some female students, so I'm sure a touch or two could have been construed as "romantic." Ha ha ha, as Perks said, scowling a lot seemed to help as a buffer.
 

dpaterso

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I'm wondering if everyone's instruction techniques and gun choices might be a tad different if the Imperial Japanese Army's arrival was imminent, but I don't want to second-guess gwendy's story. :)

-Derek
 

kuwisdelu

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Well, my brother walked out into the desert, stuck an empty coke can securely on the branch of a dusty, fallen tree, came back, handed me his shotgun, and said "try and hit it."
 

RJK

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When I met my wife, her EX, a state trooper, taught her to shoot a .357 magnum. She was 5'9", a waitress, and strong enough to carry those big trays full of dinners. When I tried to teach her to use a .45 automatic, she wasn't strong enough to pull back the slide. I tried later with a 9mm and she was successful but it was a struggle. She opted for a revolver. That worked out fine.

As far as teaching her to shoot, it was all business. It is not a time to let your mind (or hands) wander when the other person has a loaded weapon in her hand.
 

Tsu Dho Nimh

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Well, my brother walked out into the desert, stuck an empty coke can securely on the branch of a dusty, fallen tree, came back, handed me his shotgun, and said "try and hit it."

I think we had the same brother ;)

************
On the saving bullets front, it's false economy to stint during practice and sighting in. If you are firing against a backstop you can retrieve the lead and reload the casings for more practice.

My dad physically put my hands and the rifle (a 30-30) into the right position for shooting, complicated by my being left-handed. The guy who taught me pistol (a cute Beretta, not my dad's 45 caliber) just told me to "point at the target as if the pistol is your forefinger" and squeeze the trigger. It's a reasonably accurate aiming for short range shooting, like when the bad guy is coming towards you.
 

Chase

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Ha ha ha, it seems everyone who's ever shot a gun (or had a brother who did) is an expert on instruction.

The campfire winner of pointing your finger is right up there with putting a comma where you take a breath. Everyone hears it, so it must be sage advice.

Actually shooting a gun with even marginal proficiency takes patient, knowledgable instruction and practice, practice, practice.

Where I'm far from the expert is the romance part of the question, but I do know a bond often develops between shooter and coach, so after-lesson emotional ties aren't completely far-fetched.
 

StephanieFox

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I had a private lesson in handgun use. (I hate them. It was for an article i was writing.) The instructor's biggest thing was safety, safety, safety.
 

vixey

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I've had 2 private lessons on a skeet shooting range and I've shot an M-1 Carbine (WW2 vintage).

Two things I didn't see mentioned here:

1. Ear plugs - It's very likely in your timeframe someone wouldn't have thought about it. But when that shot goes off you're deaf for a second.
2. Adding to gun safety - carrying the weapon 'broken' (if it's a break action shotgun that means draped over your arm where it 'breaks', hinged; and unloaded). If it's not break action, the ammo (don't now term) holder(?) is open and you hold the gun, barrel pointed down.

As to snuggling with the instructor - yes. In my case, I was on a skeet range and the instructor touched my hands to position them. He may have even put a finger on my chin to lift it up as I sighted the gun.

I used shot, not bullets, and we had to pick up the empty casings afterwards.

Good luck!

PS - I hit more clays than my husband!!
 

Chase

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PS - I hit more clays than my husband!!

I'd say you had a very successful day. If I remember skeet rules correctly, you were supposed to hit more clays than you were supposed to hit your husband. Even so, if he was running and dodging, I'll bet that all added to your day's score.
 

Linda Adams

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Actually shooting a gun with even marginal proficiency takes patient, knowledgable instruction and practice, practice, practice.

Definitely a lot of practice. When I was in the army, we were sent to the range once a year. Our "practice" was firing nine shots to zero the rifle, and then we qualified. I never did very well. All the NCOs kept trying to come up with the reasons why not (i.e., jerking the trigger, breathing at the wrong time), but I still think the reason was not enough practice!
 

Linda Adams

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When it takes you nine shots to zero, there is definitely something wrong...then again, my best was 26/40....
FR

I never zeroed in nine shots. Usually we got 21 rounds, and often never zeroed in that, either. But then, the NCOs always insisted on going back to battle sight zero and would often reset the soldiers' rifles. When they did, I wouldn't even hit the paper. It often took all of those rounds just to get on the paper. By then, I had three or four people trying to analyze what was wrong with what I was doing, sending me to back to the trailer to practice with the machine, and all I did was end up tired and frustrated.
 

FinbarReilly

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That's impressive in a sad sort of way....

[For those of you wondering what's being discussed, after use a rifle's sight can become unaligned, causing the rifle to miss (adjusting for windage is the usal culprit, but there are issues). Every so often, you need to go out to the range and check on it. Thus, three shots are fired; the center of the group is calculated, the sights adjusted, and another three shots are fired. As you need two groupings with the same zeroing point, you either keep adjusting or you get your two groupings.

For most riflemen, it only takes six shots (each grouping only has to cover a space the size of saucer, or person's palm), and most riflemen take good enough care of their weapon that only two groups are needed. And, of course, there are some people that go through a bit more ammunition than that; I usually required about 12 shots. Good thing I was a tank-killer...]

FR
 

Tsu Dho Nimh

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The campfire winner of pointing your finger is right up there with putting a comma where you take a breath. Everyone hears it, so it must be sage advice.

Chase -
Using that method, and a small pistol, I can reliably hit the center of the torso of a man-sized target that is 30 feet away. And I can place the shots into a spread that I can cover with a salad plate. Perhaps it's not up to your standards for target shooting, but it would seriously inconvenience whoever I was shooting at.
 

gwendy85

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Hey! I was only gone for 2 days! Didn't realize there'd be so many replies! Thanks!!! I really learned a lot! Of course this means a lot of revisions, but then again, it'd of course make the story more realistic.

Wind. Breathing. Positioning. Check, check, check. AND SAFETY. Big check. Thanks ;) And thanks much for giving me the ideas abt the whole snuggling thing, haha. I guess the lessons are pretty much gonna fail for the most part, since the girl's gonna be too nervous and her instructor would rather be smiling than scowling haha

A few more things. I know from Resident Evil games (go figure) than .45 calibre handguns have just too much power (love using it with Jill Valentine, this gun kick's zombie a--) and I know for a fact this is too much for my girl, who's only 5'3" and slim (another character uses this but he's a guy and a soldier to boot, but not the same character as the instructor). I was thinking somewhere along the lines of .22, but then she needs to use this in a part that needs running and shooting...and ACTUALLY HITTING the targets. And may I add FATALLY? I'm gonna give her an unnatural ability with the gun. What would be the best gun in this case? By the way, she's not doing the chase. She's the one BEING chased.

By the way, her instructor's a first lieutenant. 18 years old. The only son of a colonel. So I guess he's connected enough to get his position and a gun of his choice.

And Chase, thanks for mentioning about the civilian fighters. I can breathe easy now, knowing my story isn't too farfetched. Then again, there have been newsreels of natives actually marching with rifles and being taught how to use 'em.

Also, backstops for saving bullets. What backstops would've been available during WWII Philippines in the Bataan jungles? Given of course, there are enough military supplies?

Appreciate the input again
 

redpbass

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If a .45 is too much, you might go with a 9mm or something similar. Still big enough to kill with a single shot, as long as you hit the right spots. I've read somewhere that it is the most common round in the world, though I'm not sure about its situation in WWII.

Here is a link about 9mm ammunition. Scroll down to the part called "Performance" for some info comparing it to other calibers.
 

jclarkdawe

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Although larger caliber bullets tend to be more immediate, a .22 coupled with hollow points can be very effective if aimed right. For example, I had a suicide who used a .22 hollow point to the head. Aimed above and behind the ear. Wrong place for immediate results as it took out a lot of brain but didn't hit anything critical. However, if he had a better knowledge of anatomy, he could have gotten immediate results. (It took about ten hours for him to die.)

A .22 is easier to aim, light, and won't beat you up. A hollow point will do significant damage without exiting the body.

Remember that you can't shoot and run at the same time (well, technically you can, but your chances of actually hitting something are about the same as my chances of hitting a pitch from a major league pitcher). You run, stop, position, aim, shoot, and then run. Remember that even with a .22 you position, aim, shoot, reposition, aim, and shoot. It's just with a .22 the reposition is a lot faster than with a .45.

Remember to have her flip the safety off. And if she's using a revolver and carrying it with loads (not smart, but ...), usually you keep the firing cylinder empty so you don't have an accidental discharge. A .22 can also have more than six shots to a cylinder.

Longer the barrel the easier it is to hit your target but the harder it is to carry. Derringers work best when held within inches of their target.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe