Forest and Trees problem

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DaveKuzminski

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Okay, we all get into something so deep sometimes that we can't see what should be an obvious solution. This thread should be used by anyone with similar questions or requests for suggestions that might solve a WIP stumper.

Here's mine. It's a medieval-level world slowly repopulating and rediscovering a lot of things since the collapse of a highly technical world more advanced than our own. An enemy king has offered to produce some kind of token to show his good will in an offer of a full truce he is making to the allies so that his few remaining ships can actually do some trading for goods his kingdom desperately needs (lumber and metals). He is making this known to the allies through the officers of a small boat that mistakenly entered his territory whom he has decided not to attack simply because he believes the boat carries a hidden talent whose power is sufficient to destroy what's left of his fleet and his port city along with him and his palace. He's encountered a hidden talent before with disastrous results. Okay, so there's no real subterfuge at this point. He really needs a truce because another kingdom is emerging as an equal threat to the allies and to him. So, what suggestions can anyone offer as to the token he can give to show his sincerity? A slave is out of the question. His people are like badly-treated serfs, but otherwise free.
 

MadScientistMatt

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A good token might be some sort of valuable antique. It might be a useful piece of technology with non-military applications, an article like a serving bowl or chair built using processes or materials no longer available, or even a device which nobody knows how to use because the fuel or whatever it relied on for power is long gone. For some reason I'm thinking a diesel-powered portable generator.
 

Andrew Jameson

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Why wouldn't the enemy king send, not a "slave", but a "hostage" with the officers in the small boat? It seems to me that, if he's really serious about negotiating a truce, he'd want to send something that 1) would mean something, and 2) the allies would know he wants back, and thus would ensure his good behaviour during the truce. So something like... his only daughter, for example, would fit those requirements.
 

Ella

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Dammit. I was hoping to answer an easy question about trees. Now you made me think.

I agree with Mad Matt. I feel it should be a piece of technology from the previous civilization, as either a valuable tool or valuable collector piece, or a building block to resurrecting that technology.

Let us know what you decide!
 

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If he has some sort of ceremonial regalia which is (are? I realize for the first time that I don't know whether regalia is single or plural!) ritually important to his kingship he could send that - a royal ring or a crown. Or if it's just a present he wants to give he could send a very valuable horse.

If you want to be a bit off the wall he could send a secret recipe - if this is post-apocalyptic earth, maybe the recipe for Coca Cola or Irn Bru!

If he himself has some sort of superior military technology, and he *really* wants to gamble on the other side's willingness to be friends, he could give them his own military secrets.

Or there might be a relic with great sacred or historical cachet - the embalmed body of a saint, letters from the queen of one kingdom to the king of the other written eight centuries ago and now part of romantic legend - which he could give them.
 
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azbikergirl

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How about some item, such as a letter, that would prove something that one of the allies either wants kept quiet, or has been dying to uncover? I use knowledge as The Holy Grail that my hero is seeking, and I have fun with it. Whatever it is, should be meaningful to the ally receiving it. What does that person desperately want? Giving him this thing could really force the ally into an alliance he may otherwise be reluctant to pursue.
 

katiemac

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Since this thread was entitled "forest and trees," I was thinking just that. A tree. Perhaps a special species native to the enemy kingdom. Could be their symbol of wealth. If it's fruit bearing, it would also be productive for the receiving kingdom as the beginning of a stable orchard. Wealth, prosperty, sustaining life, etc.
 

DaveKuzminski

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Okay, I've already locked myself into a thousand-year gap between the fall of the technologically advanced civilization and theirs. Except for a few objects recovered from places where they were protected, such as a crate of plates and glasses lost in the sea and recovered from protective mud and silt, virtually everything was destroyed in the fall. In other words, very little is intact and even less is still functional. During the fall, one side was fanatical and willing to die in order to kill the others. They even released biological agents that had no cures. The only thing they do have is advanced biological knowledge passed on by word of mouth, but they don't have advanced equipment.

As far as the boat that is there, it's basically a harbor boat enroute to its new station, so it doesn't have anything more than a captain, some officers, and the men and women who operate the boat. Furthermore, they don't trust the king because his forces before he took power attacked one of their ports and wiped out the apprentices who surrendered. Their boat is even named the Breedport Terror after that port that was wiped out.

Militarily, the king has four ships left. The allies have well over a hundred trade ships and hundreds of harbor and river and lake boats which are all basically the same size as each other with minor differences, though smaller than the ships. However, though the vessels all carry weapons, it's at the medieval level -- no gunpowder. They all have weapons equivalent to what the Romans possessed. The allies do not have standing armies, but the king does. However, he has only four ships so his army is useless since it's on a different continent. Two of the allies are on the same continent, but both are separated from his kingdom by mountain ranges with passes that can be defended easily and are patrolled. Plus, they're regularly supplied by their other ally across the ocean with what they need. Though one of the allies on the same continent has access to plenty of timber, they also have the services of a witch with more than enough power to wipe out the king's army if they cross the mountain range. Though she's called a witch, she's really a DNA modified descendent of the survivors of the fall who modified themselves in order to give themselves an immunity to the artificial diseases. In doing so, they also hit on the ability to generate and handle electricity like an electric eel, thus they can shock others with killing force and even use it to affect the atmosphere enough to create small storms.

I know, it's gotten complicated. I have a feeling that the captain is going to decide to leave before the king expects out of suspicion. Still, I'm hoping for some other possibility.
 

DaveKuzminski

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I forgot to mention that the only horses that survived the fall were also modified and resemble unicorns as a result. Other beasts were similarly created during and after the fall. The survivors took an oath that wildlife, regardless of how dangerous, should never be mishandled or wiped out just to harm people as happened in the fall. Consequently, they believe in killing beasts of any sort only for food and to defend themselves. Otherwise, most of the people consider themselves the conservators of the wildlife, some of whom are minimally intelligent and cognitive.
 

mdin

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If your initial idea was slave, but thought better of it, how about a marriage? Have him send off that buxom, but rather troublesome niece, and maybe kill two birds with one stone. He can secure a truce by marrying his blood to the other kingdom's in the same way it's been done here for 1,000s of years.
 

zornhau

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Speaking as a Medievalist (and having skipped the discussion), historically the following have been used:

  • Hostages (explicitly, or otherwise): For example, he could send one of his sons to train at the rival king's court. This is as much about bonding and making friends as physical threat.
  • Marriage
  • Public Displays of Respect (e.g. Field of Cloth of Gold) - basically, if you make a huge public fuss over a fellow monarch, then you stand to lose all cred if you subsequently murder him.
  • Mythical Artifacts - a medieval king of England sent "Excaliber" to Sicily to clinch a deal. Really, though, this is just a remote form of Public Display of Respect.
  • Spoils of War - as above, really. "Here's the crown my dad took off your dad's corpse."
  • The Pickled Head of an Enemy: chances are the Rival King's harbouring high born outlawed traitors from the other kingdom, or turning a blind eye to border bandits. The heads of such people make fine diplomatic gifts.
  • Small Body of Elite Soldiers, perhaps led by his son: these are both Hostages and Public Displays of Respect.
If you haven't read Machievelli's The Prince you should do so now.
 

DaveKuzminski

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Answering the last one first, a pair of binoculars have already been found and are owned by another harbor boat.

I should mention that the harbor, trade, river, and lake boats are from a continent named Aluria and that the ports operate independently like the old Greek city states. So, there's no centralized government kind of like the US under the Articles of Confederation before the Constitution and the strong central government came into being. Consequently, it's not practical for the king to give a hostage to each.
 

Andrew Jameson

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Well, but the original problem was, "what suggestions can anyone offer as to the token he can give to show his sincerity?" I would think that the king is showing his sincerity by the act of giving up a hostage or whatever; there would be no necessity for giving a hostage or whatever to each of the city-states.

But if you are thinking of something that the king can share out to each of the city-states, that puts a slightly different spin on the problem.
 

DaveKuzminski

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No, but I'm trying to put the political situation into perspective.

I have to admit that the son or daughter hostage is one of the better sounding ideas, but the king doesn't have any yet. In fact, he's an unmarried king unwilling to share his power yet. However, this does inspire me to give that some additional thought. It might even become a central element.

At the same time, one of the other problems that has to be kept in consideration is that his country just before he overthrew the throne had sent a force against the Alurians and in a move meant to set back their naval and trading superiority had slaughtered several hundred young apprentices who had surrendered in a battle. So, his country and he, by extension, are considered very dishonorable and untrustworthy. The Alurians would easily believe he was trying to trick them again based upon attempts they have deflected already. In other words, they believe he does not value the lives of children, possibly even his own, even though the reader knows that he does based upon previous encounters as a sea captain where he ordered his men not to harm any children.
 

Andrew Jameson

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Ah, that helps a bit.

I've been sort of mulling this over, and let me type out my thoughts to see if this makes sense.

See, I'm envisioning your enemy king as a sneaky, no-holds-barred kind of fighter, the type of guy who *would* slaughter captured POWs. A character trait which is coming back to bite him now, because of course the allies are gonna be doubly suspicious of any truce overtures that he makes.

Now, let's suppose that, as a token of his sincerity, the king gives up to the allies a super-magical-technological whatsit. And let's further suppose that the allies are duly impressed by the king's sacrifice of a super-magical-technological whatsit, and agree to the truce. Now, let me think like this no-holds-barred king. I've already given up a super-magical-technological whatsit. It's gone, ain't getting it back. Moreover, the allies were dumb enough to grant a truce. What's the advantage for me to play fair? Ain't no advantage to playing fair. In fact, there's a considerable advantage to not playing fair -- I might as well break the truce when it's most convenient to me.

And now, if I'm part of the allies, I'm figuring that that is exactly what the king is thinking when he sends out a super-magical-technological whatsit. Why should I grant a truce? The king is just going to break it at the most awkward time.

That's, to me, why the hostage idea is so attractive, because the hostage (in principle) assures the king's good behaviour. If the king breaks the truce, the hostage is executed. If the king remains faithful, the hostage goes home unharmed.

So, if you don't use the hostage idea, I'd think you'd want to somehow use an idea where there would be real *consequences* if the king reneges on his pledge of truce -- otherwise, there's no reason for the allies to acquiesce to his proposal.

To throw out a couple ideas: 1) could the king provide plans for his ships/weapons that the allies could exploit militarily in the near future (i.e., if the king reneged)? 2) Or how about the king gives up a digital camera-thingy containing photographs of his current defensive arrangements? Even lets the boat officers take the pictures themselves? [The idea here is that, by giving the allies *current* military information, the king has purposely backed himself into a corner where it's in his own best interest (apparently) to prolong the truce as much as possible.]

Great idea for a thread, BTW... I've got a couple problems of my own I'm mulling over.
 

Liam Jackson

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No heirs...hmmm. Perhaps you could write in a favored relative, niece, nephew, mom, pop or valued advisor. Someone that he seems to need, but someone he would sacrifice if the stakes/rewards were high enough.
 

Andrew Jameson

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Yet Another Forest

All right then, here's my problem:

The POV characters: I have three POV characters. The first, Katerin, is a magic-user of sorts; she is stewarding a mid-sized landholding for her daughter, the only Heir. The second, Tristan, is an old friend of Katerin's who runs into her unexpectedly at the beginning of the book. The third, Bear, is Katerin's guard captain.

The villain: I also have a villain -- he appears *onstage* somewhat later in the book. He's suave, urbane, a magic-user, a man of means, and he has a Plot. Part of his Plot is to have Katerin's daughter killed, leaving the landholding with no Heir, and then, through some additional machinations, have himself named as the Landholder. He's not doing this for personal gain, oh no; he's standing up for the rights of magic-users and so forth and so on.

The story so far: At the beginning of the book, a few attempts are made on the life of Katerin's daughter. The first part of the book deals with narrowing down just who the mysterious villain is (and some other things not important now). In the middle of the book, Katerin and Tristan hunt this villain down, while Bear escorts Katerin's daughter across the country to the school of magic -- she's starting her first term there. Meanwhile, Tristan and Katerin close in on the villain, and he skips town just ahead of the posse.

The climax: For the climactic scene in the book, I need to get all the characters together -- the three POV characters, Katerin's daughter, and the villain -- at the school of magic, with the villain again presenting a threat to Katerin's daughter. I also want everyone (including the reader) to feel that the villain is in control right up until the very last moment.

The problem: OK so far? Now comes my problem. I need a reason for the villain to "lure" everyone into the same place. Currently, I have the villain essentially kick in his back-up plan. He flees cross-country to the school of magic, where he has allies. He leaves a taunting note telling where he's going. Katerin and Tristan, much worried, follow. Once at the college of magic, the villain kidnaps Katerin's daughter (she's already there, of course) and forces Katerin to vouch for him with the powers-that-be.

The question: However, my approach seems inelegant. Why would the villain resort to such a complex plan when simply disappearing might be better? (Pure spite won't work: the villain's more complex than that.) Why does he need *Katerin* to vouch for him? Can he realistically hope that Katerin won't try to hammer him after he releases her daughter? So.... Is there a better way for the villain to control the action? Anyone?
 

DaveKuzminski

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Well, what the king considered valuable is the position he holds. He would like to rule more than just the lands he now holds.

He was formerly a sea captain who deposed the self-proclaimed emperor who deposed the previous king who was his cousin. At that time, the king placed all his relatives in charge of various units so that they could always be sent somewhere else to keep them from getting too ambitious and from conspiring easily with each other. However, the current king went up against the Alurians at a very bad time, namely just after the development of a new long range spear thrower. Still, though defeated several times, he managed to steal one of the weapons and make copies of it for his ship. When he later encountered the squadron that the emperor sent to wipe out the Alurian training port (after they'd done the deed), he fought with them to take over control and increase the size of his forces. Because of the new weapon, he quickly gained the upper hand and won. Then with doubled forces, he went back to overthrow the emperor.

He is sneaky and has already betrayed some of his loyal officers when it suited his needs. Faced with the threat of a witch coming to his palace to destroy him personally, he chose to deny responsibility for the forces in her land and claimed those were rogues whom he wasn't supplying. They and another officer who felt threatened joined forces to escape from the witch's land and seek shelter on another continent where they formed a new city state intent on overthrowing the king. However, their plans required them to use subterfuge since their forces weren't sufficient to face his on land or sea, so they've resorted to raids meant to look like his forces were still active against the Alurians in hopes of getting them and the king to fight each other so that one or both would be weakened.
 

DaveKuzminski

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Hmmm, why not have your villain use his magic to make it appear that someone else was to blame at first? Of course, that individual would then be found dead and unable to prove his innocence. Then the villain could appear to be trusted and accompany Katerin and Bear to the school.
 

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Dave- if the king is unmarried, why doesn't HE marry to cement the alliance. perhaps the daughter of the monarch of one of the more influential states, especially if she's related to the royalty of several others.also, trade concessions or minor land grants could work.
 

soloset

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I like the hostage idea. But what if it were a hostage who appeared valuable on the surface, but who was really a white elephant the king's been trying to rid himself of anyway?

Say, a witch who had an unpleasant or uncontrollable ability. The king can safely offer her up as "hey, look, here's a powerful hostage for you", and he's not losing anything himself.

Or an unwanted sibling or possible heir who the peasants or nobles might like better than the king. Send him off as a hostage -- best case, he's out of the country and away from his power base permanently, worse case, if he is killed, the king can rally his people around the poor victim of his enemies. Of course, then the king risks having his hostage returned to him at the head of an invading army, so he'd have to keep the hostage's loved ones under his thumb as insurance.
 
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