Let's talk about "preachy" books.

It has been my experience that all books have a purpose (message) to be presented. That's like...well...kinda the point. I can't think of a single book I've read that didn't have a message of some sort.

As for Chronicles of Narnia, I've read the entire collection more than I can admit to. I don't find them overtly preachy in their messages. In fact, C.S. Lewis does a GREAT job in my opinion in presenting lessons for everyone to enjoy. If you are into theological parallels then you could see his interpretation of Christianity in it. But to not notice simple life lessons in his stories is to focusing on one thing alone. In the Voyage of the Dawn Treader he teaches a lesson about eavesdropping and gossip. I don't hear anyone complaining about that.

I don't mind books being a little preachy, or conveying a message, as long as it doesn't go on and on with the "telling."

I absolutely loved Atlas Shrugged, but that chapter where John Galt spends 25+ pages in a dialogue explaining Rand's philosophy and how it relates to the way we live our lives...man that was a marathon getting through.

I read Narnia when I was a kid and again as an adult. As a kid, I was involved in the church and did not find the message offensive or annoying. When I read them again as a non-religious adult, I found myself cringing. It's mostly the first and the last book, I think. The symbolism is a little overwhelming at times.

That doesn't mean I can't enjoy them, though. Lewis just put his beliefs in his books same as I probably do in mine.

I'll confess to being a little suspicious of any fiction writer who backpedals on her work with the claim that "it's just fiction." JUST fiction? Why would anyone go through the pain and tedium of writing and editing and submitting who did not believe that there was something true and beautiful at the center of their writing?

Obviously I can't and shouldn't speak for all writers -- that's just my own perspective.

I expect well-crafted books to be intimately tied with particular perspectives and beliefs and ideals, whether the author put them there consciously or not. And I expect to be offended on a regular basis by books when they clash with my own perspectives and beliefs. That doesn't make them bad books, any more than a person is automatically a bad person because she expressed disappointment that they don't kill witches any more...

Personally, I think that books shouldn't try to force across a message. Yes, most books have some message, somewhere, but I think it's better when it's executed subtly.

A 25-page diatribe? Not subtle. If I want to read bad philosophy, I'll just pull up Descartes' Meditations, kthx.

It's best if it's done in a way that allows the reader to come to the conclusion on their own, rather than having their hand held by the author the entire way. I've graduated, I'm done with being lectured.

The only book I disliked for preaching was a Christian science fiction. The story started out good, then descended into this surreal sequence of events designed to show that aliens were the spawn of Satan and we'd all be destroyed if we let them into our lives. It's possible the author intended the main character to look like a crazy religious psycho, but I got the impression he was supposed to be the good guy.

Messages are fine, so long as it isn't at the expense of story. I think Narnia has a good balance. I don't agree with all of C.S. Lewis's beliefs, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the stories.

I think Dempsey sums it up pretty well. Every author has a worldview, and it will be reflected in the story, sometimes even promoted. But as long as it works as a story.

Turning it into a sermon or a philosophy lecture, that's another thing. Then it's no longer a novel. I have nothing against either sermons or philosophy lectures, but they aren't novels. And they shouldn't try to dress up as novels.

I loved the Chronicles of Narnia both before and after I understood the symbolism. I know an irreligious person who thinks The Final Battle, the last in the series, is the best of all. She's obviously not put off by the symbols, because she loves the story.

It's when the story is poor or subsumed, that I start hating the preachiness. The very worst I ever read was a New Age novel by a very poor debut novelist, published by what was probably a vanity press, that was virtually a New Age sermon with rags of a nonsensical plot draped around it. Gah! That one I actually threw in the recycling bin.

Yes, Heinlein was very much a 'preacher' in his writings. I don't have his library handy, but I remember him saying that it's ok to impart a message, but you should do it so well that the reader gets caught up in the story and doesn't realize he's being preached at. I believe he was a master at that technique. If you look for them, the messages fly thick and fast in all his writings. If you're not looking, you'll be entertained and may just learn something in the process.

Starship Troopers was so controversial it ended Heinlein's relationship with Scribners. It was not a parody, but reflected much of his real views toward patriotism and the military. From a conventional liberal/conservative viewpoint it's hard to believe that he took a break from Stranger in a Strange Land to write Starship Troopers, since those books appear to be at two ends of the left/right spectrum.

Heinlein didn't fit the left/right mold, and can best be described as a patriotic libertarian. Although socially he was an extremely liberal, even radical, individualist, he also felt that the US held a promise of freedom unparalleled in history, and strongly supported the voluntary protection of those freedoms. These two works were, to him, two sides of the same coin. His military experience and personal life reflected these beliefs as well.

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is, in my opinion, the one work of Heinlein's that brings these two concepts together in a coherent message that's also extremely entertaining. That he based this novel loosely on the American Revolution in a future where the United States is just another cog in a world-wide machine underscores his belief in the American dream as conceived by the Founding Fathers, and the realization the dream was being undermined even as he was writing these three novels.

To me preachy=a good reason to put the book down. If I wanted anybody to preach to me I would go to a church. And I avoid those at all cost.

I don't mind symbolism being used, or maybe a character having an epihany, but when it gets so overtly preachy that I know the author is addressing me as the reader is when I get turned off.

My mother loved the "Left Behind" books, I tried them and saw a lot of potential, but just couldn't get into them because of the preachiness. However, that was their intent.

someone once gave me Narnia to read for the specific purpose of fostering Christian beliefs in me, as they later revealed. Don't think it quite worked ;-)

cethklein said:

the books are often criticized for being a bit too heavy handed in their promotion of Christian beliefs (is promotion of any belief in a book really a bad thing, it's just a book).

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That's because that was the author's intent. The author is very much a religious and christian writer (and has written a few other books on christianity as well) and the whole REASON he wrote the books was as an allegory to Christ (Aslan). Why he'd be criticized for that, I have no idea. *shrug*

That being said, I think just about all books have some sort of message that they drive home. Granted, there are a lot of mindless entertainment books out there, but for the most part every book has it's message. I don't see anything wrong with that.

someone once gave me Narnia to read for the specific purpose of fostering Christian beliefs in me, as they later revealed. Don't think it quite worked

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Ditto. As far as I was concerned, the Narnia series was just a great introduction to fantasy as a child. (and honestly, I STILL don't see all the Christian messages that are supposed to be lurking in there unless I stretch for it) Whether or not C.S. Lewis would count that as mission accomplished, I don't know.

Having just read the His Dark Materials trilogy though... Now, there's a series that just beats you over the head with a sledge hammer. I don't mind books having messages and all, I just want them to be well-conveyed, and these books just weren't. I felt like the author sacrificed story for the sake of cramming his beliefs down your throat.

(and at the risk of derailing: No one can be that mad at God and still call themselves an athiest. Geez)

Tasmin21 said:

(and at the risk of derailing: No one can be that mad at God and still call themselves an athiest. Geez)

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Wait a minute...are you trying to say that C.S. Lewis is an atheist or am misunderstanding something here?

I've always been under the assumption that C.S. Lewis is a pretty hardcore christian.

I know C.S. Lewis was once an atheist, and converted. G.K. Chesterton's writings really influenced him.

But yeah, I didn't quite understand that atheist comment either.

WriterInTheStone said:

I know C.S. Lewis was once an atheist, and converted. G.K. Chesterton's writings really influenced him.

But yeah, I didn't quite understand that atheist comment either.

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The atheist comment went with the second series mentioned. 'His Dark Materials' was written by Phillip Pullman, who is an atheist.

What Polenth said

Polenth said:

The atheist comment went with the second series mentioned. 'His Dark Materials' was written by Phillip Pullman, who is an atheist.

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Oh, haha.

Quote marks in the original post might've helped. lol

Tasmin21 said:

(and at the risk of derailing: No one can be that mad at God and still call themselves an athiest. Geez)

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I so disagree with this assessment of his work. In no way can he be angry at God because, you know, he doesn't believe in him/her/it. He is furious however at religion, the church, the institution.

This always gets to me a little, people seem to misconstrue the anger as if atheists are frustrated at God and that's what made them atheists. No. They are frustrated at what they see religion having done to the world, and especially some of its institutions. That is a big difference.

(I am not debating if I agree with him or not, just trying to explain the anger, this is not the place for a debate on those issues of course, and I by no means wish to start such a discussion here)

I don't mind a message in a book - all books foster some sort of message, even if it's "good triumphs over evil" or "happiness comes to those who survive the trials" - but I do not enjoy being preached at unless it's done with a lot of style.

A good writer can blind me to a message or make read over or through it to get to the absorbing story. I really liked Ayn Rand, Robert Heinlein, C.S. Lewis and Charles Williams as much as I liked J.K. Rowling, Sue Ann Jaffarian and James Lee Burke. All good writers, all with messages, all with good stories to tell.

I think a "preachy" book is just badly written.

Toothpaste said:

They are frustrated at what they see religion having done to the world, and especially some of its institutions. That is a big difference.

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Agreed. I've written some blistering stuff about fundamentalists (and I mean serious fundamentalists, like the Phelps clan), but I'm not mad at a god, because I don't believe one exists. I'm frustrated at what people do in the name of whatever god they believe in.

bethany said:

To me preachy=a good reason to put the book down. If I wanted anybody to preach to me I would go to a church. And I avoid those at all cost.

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I'm totally with you on this one!

I'm frustrated at what people do in the name of whatever god they believe in.

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This makes sense.

And to get back to the point of the thread (sorry 'bout the derail, guys), I agree. Books with messages aren't bad, so long as the message doesn't overwhelm the story. If you can look at a book after you're done and say "Oh hey, I see what they did there", then the author has accomplished what they intended. If you can't even figure out what the story was about because they were too busy clubbing you over the head with their message, then they need to work on their writing.