Afterlife?

Bartholomew · Aug 6, 2008

I'm curious as to what the Atheists of the board see in store for themselves after death. Reincarnation? Void? Transmigration? Heaven? Hell?

Furthermore, what do you believe you were before birth? Is this the same place or state you believe in after death?

Eeek · Aug 6, 2008

I believe there was nothing before, and there will be nothing after. Except, since matter can neither be created nor destroyed, the atoms that make up my body will continue on, in some other role, initially in the soil. But I won't be around to see it happen. Hopefully, some people will remember me, so I will get to live on in that sense too, in their memories. (I should probably stop answering these questions because I'm not really a full-fledged atheist, although I do feel pretty certain about the non-existence of a before- or after- life.)

Mandy-Jane · Aug 6, 2008

I believe strongly in reincarnation. I believe I will reincarnate after my death, just as my soul in my present life is a reincarnation of a past life. I believe that we keep reincarnating as long as we still have lessons to learn. There is no heaven; there is no hell; there is just life.

My thoughts, anyway.

Albedo · Aug 6, 2008

"I" am an emergent phenomenon in a complex central nervous system, and a product of my genes, environment and upbringing, so before I existed I was nowhere. When my brain stops working I will be gone again. Non-existence isn't a 'place', but it is a state, I guess.

Albedo · Aug 6, 2008

However, if the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics turns out to be the correct one, some of my states will last a lot longer than this one of the moment, here. That's an afterlife of a sort, if those states can be said to be "me".

Ageless Stranger · Aug 6, 2008

This may sound wacky but, I have a strong feeling I'll either be born again and replay my life with no knowledge of what has happened or I'll emerge onto a different plane of existence, a seperate dimension of sorts. I struggle to believe that the mind dies along with the body.

Despite this, I'm fairly reconciled to the fact that I may just close my eyes one day and be no more, it's really not that frightening a concept.

As for my existence before birth, I believe that perhaps there is some grand collection of thoughts and ideas, a web of mythology, history and concept from which we all have an origin of sorts.

If any of this sounds crazy, all I ask is that you do not contact the guys in white suits.

veinglory · Aug 6, 2008

What Eeek and Albedo said.

kuwisdelu · Aug 6, 2008

Eeek said:
I believe there was nothing before, and there will be nothing after. Except, since matter can neither be created nor destroyed, the atoms that make up my body will continue on, in some other role, initially in the soil. But I won't be around to see it happen. Hopefully, some people will remember me, so I will get to live on in that sense too, in their memories. (I should probably stop answering these questions because I'm not really a full-fledged atheist, although I do feel pretty certain about the non-existence of a before- or after- life.)

Albedo said:
"I" am an emergent phenomenon in a complex central nervous system, and a product of my genes, environment and upbringing, so before I existed I was nowhere. When my brain stops working I will be gone again. Non-existence isn't a 'place', but it is a state, I guess.

Albedo said:
However, if the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics turns out to be the correct one, some of my states will last a lot longer than this one of the moment, here. That's an afterlife of a sort, if those states can be said to be "me".

These exactly, because I'm too lazy to type. I'm more of an agnostic than an atheist, but without any proof of any kind of god yet, this is what I believe. Once we're gone, we're gone. Our bodies are immortal, as Eeek said, in the sense that the particles--the carbon, the hydrogen, the oxygen and all the other elements that make us up--will continue to exist, and become other things. They'll feed trees and grass, and maybe, even, one day some of them will form another human being. But beyond that, the only way to really be immortal is through others' memories, through what we've written, what we've done, what parts of us will go on. Other than that--when we're gone, we're gone. An afterlife is a nice fairy tale, but until I'm there and I can see it, it's just that: a fairy tale.

Mom'sWrite · Aug 6, 2008

I feel comforted by the fact that when I'm gone (meaning my consciousness), I'm gone. My work here is done and folding laundry, cooking, cleaning, paying taxes, worrying, working, organizing, getting everything just right becomes someone else's problem.

I'll be seriously disappointed if there's more after this.

oscuridad · Aug 6, 2008

this relates well: Epicure said something like this about death:

'Where death is, I am not. Where I am, death is not. How can I be afraid of that which cannot be where I am?

DeleyanLee · Aug 6, 2008

I'll admit, I'm a Pagan, not an agnostic/athiest (though I spent a large part of my life in that camp previously)--but my take on pre- and post-living is the same: I don't think about it. I don't care. I've got enough to consume my thoughts in day-to-day living that I'm very happy to not think or care about what happens on either end of breathing.

No matter I think it is, I'm likely to be wrong because the universe is too wild and weird a place for me to comprehend. No sense in getting my heart set on something just to get the cosmic smack-down for being humanly arrogant and stupid. I'm much happier knowing that when this life finally ends and I don't have to fuss with money or family politics or getting up to do the day job, there's cool stuff to be discovered.

Sarpedon · Aug 6, 2008

There was also a popular Roman tomb inscription:

"I was not.
I was.
I am not.
I care not."

Sums it up rather nicely.

Bartholomew · Aug 6, 2008

To the [Ok, what do you guys want to be called?]:

Are there any parallel phenomena to this state of nothingness in which you believe? Even in the deepest reaches of space, matter is found, along with light and radiation.

Why do so many people on the edge of death-- say, during a complex surgery, or in a car accident-- claim to have witnessed the exact same phenomena?

I proffer: as the brain is still a very mysterious organ, even to the most enlightened of the medical field, it is unreasonable to reject that the brain may contain some sort of energy that remains cohesive after death.

DeleyanLee · Aug 6, 2008

Bartholomew said:
Why do so many people on the edge of death-- say, during a complex surgery, or in a car accident-- claim to have witnessed the exact same phenomena?

I proffer: as the brain is still a very mysterious organ, even to the most enlightened of the medical field, it is unreasonable to reject that the brain may contain some sort of energy that remains cohesive after death.

Actually, surgeons have located the area of the brain where, when stimulated during surgery, the patient experiences the full "near death" scenario (tunnel of light, loved ones, etc). This was some years ago, but I remember there being a big uproar in the New Age community when the report was released.

Doesn't really address your question, but it does appear we're hard-wired for some kind of process for that experience.

Mom'sWrite · Aug 6, 2008

DeleyanLee said:
Actually, surgeons have located the area of the brain where, when stimulated during surgery, the patient experiences the full "near death" scenario (tunnel of light, loved ones, etc). This was some years ago, but I remember there being a big uproar in the New Age community when the report was released.

Doesn't really address your question, but it does appear we're hard-wired for some kind of process for that experience.

They nailed down the mechanics of deja vu too, although I agree that the brain (all brains, not just the almighty human brain) is an unfolding mystery.

kuwisdelu · Aug 6, 2008

Bartholomew said:
To the nihilists:

Not a nihilist, but I'll answer.

Are there any parallel phenomena to this state of nothingness in which you believe? Even in the deepest reaches of space, matter is found, along with light and radiation.

I'm not sure what you mean? Inflation and the Big Bang explain the distribution of matter and energy in the universe pretty well.

Why do so many people on the edge of death-- say, during a complex surgery, or in a car accident-- claim to have witnessed the exact same phenomena?

I don't know. Why do so many people still refuse to believe in alien abduction when so many people report similar abduction experiences? In both cases, I honestly take the wishy-washy way out and say "I don't know--we don't have enough evidence either way to come to any valid conclusion yet." There have been experiments conducted on both phenomena--abductions and near-death experiences--in which participants are monitored while being subjected to artificial electromagnetic stimuli. Many participants reported very similar experiences to abductees and near-death victims during the artificial stimuli. It's certainly possible it's the just way the brain electrochemically reacts to certain situations. I don't rule out the alternatives, though, in either case.

I proffer: as the brain is still a very mysterious organ, even to the most enlightened of the medical field, it is unreasonable to reject that the brain may contain some sort of energy that remains cohesive after death.

Well, I certainly agree the brain is still a very mysterious organ. But I've never heard of it radiating any sort of energy postmortem. I'd say the bigger mystery, the bigger suggestion of god, is how somehow the simple electrochemical firings between axons and dendrites can somehow result in the amazing thing that is the human mind--thought, imagination, innovation, memory, etc.

veinglory · Aug 6, 2008

Bartholomew said:
Are there any parallel phenomena to this state of nothingness in which you believe? Even in the deepest reaches of space, matter is found, along with light and radiation..

Yes, it is a state similar to that experienced by the aardvark that is not currently sitting on my lap.

I have explicit spelled out that threads here are not to become forums where atheists of any kind are repeatedly asked to defend the basic logic and/or morality of that perspective. We seem to be drifting into that neighborhood again. I also asked that new thread this month try very hard to be writing-related as this is a genre forum.

Bartholomew · Aug 6, 2008

veinglory said:
I have explicit spelled out that threads here are not to become forums where atheists of any kind are repeatedly asked to defend the basic logic and/or morality of that perspective. We seem to be drifting into that neighborhood again. I also asked that new thread this month try very hard to be writing-related as this is a genre forum.

I'm atheist. I'm trying to gauge where the atheists on this board stand regarding the afterlife, if there is one.

Also, I must have missed that announcement. Is it in a sticky?

I'm not here attacking atheists. I'm here talking about atheism.

Yes, it is a state similar to that experienced by the aardvark that is not currently sitting on my lap.

But that space isn't empty. There is a very small potential that an aardvark could occupy the space. A much larger potential that, say, a cat might, and an incredibly high degree of possibility that it is currently occupied by air. It seems very unlikely that you have a void on your lap.

My question is not, "does the soul persist?" This question can't be answered. I am asking what leads you to the conclusion that there is nothing, except in this very brief period of life. The concept of eternity [which I define here as infinite time] is a sticky one when you start filling it with one thing, whether that be heaven, hell, nirvana, utter blackness, or even aardvarks.

Ruv Draba · Aug 6, 2008

There's a temporary local manifestation of Ruvness that formed and eventually departs. The Ruvness has some cohesion. That cohesion can be loosely called 'I', though this is an operational convenience and largely ill-defined.

The Ruvness might or might not recur, but that's irrelevant to any persistence of 'I', because the 'I' is a construct of mind and doesn't really exist.

CBumpkin · Aug 6, 2008

Mandy-Jane said:
I believe strongly in reincarnation. I believe I will reincarnate after my death, just as my soul in my present life is a reincarnation of a past life. I believe that we keep reincarnating as long as we still have lessons to learn. There is no heaven; there is no hell; there is just life.

My thoughts, anyway.

May I ask some sincere, non-confrontational questions?
Why do you believe strongly in it? What do you base your belief in? Where is the evidence/proof of reincarnation?

Bartholomew · Aug 6, 2008

This isn't the sort of discussion I was looking for.

I think I'll just bow out.

Elodie-Caroline · Aug 6, 2008

I subscribed to this posting today, after around the first reply, so have read everything said so far.

I'm not an atheist, I'm not religious either, but I do believe in reincarnation. I have known, since I was just seven years old, that I have lived before. I knew at that age that I had lived in the Orient, many hundreds of years ago.
I also know I died in the battle fields of France, in the first world war, that's why I am so interested in that time and in the country of France.
Of course, I can't prove any of this, but no one can prove it's not so either.

Elodie

benbradley · Aug 6, 2008

Bartholomew said:
To the [Ok, what do you guys want to be called?]:
People? Posters in teh Atheism and Non-... forum? Human beings?

Bartholomew said:

Are there any parallel phenomena to this state of nothingness in which you believe? Even in the deepest reaches of space, matter is found, along with light and radiation.

Why do so many people on the edge of death-- say, during a complex surgery, or in a car accident-- claim to have witnessed the exact same phenomena?

I proffer: as the brain is still a very mysterious organ, even to the most enlightened of the medical field, it is unreasonable to reject that the brain may contain some sort of energy that remains cohesive after death.

Click to expand...

I like the idea that "the burden of proof is on the positive," else we can easily end up discussing the details of many spurious things that may or may not exist.

Bartholomew said:

I'm atheist. I'm trying to gauge where the atheists on this board stand regarding the afterlife, if there is one.

Also, I must have missed that announcement. Is it in a sticky?

I'm not here attacking atheists. I'm here talking about atheism.

Click to expand...

Well, technically, this is a forum for talking about WRITING about atheism, but the mods are letting us slide on that.

Bartholomew said:

...
My question is not, "does the soul persist?" This question can't be answered. I am asking what leads you to the conclusion that there is nothing, except in this very brief period of life. The concept of eternity [which I define here as infinite time] is a sticky one when you start filling it with one thing, whether that be heaven, hell, nirvana, utter blackness, or even aardvarks.

Click to expand...

I am a "reductionist" as I suspect many other atheists are, meaning I see no hard evidence of any afterlife, and thus have no reason to believe it exists. I certainly believe other living beings go on, and that the matter in my body goes on, but the "me-ness" is an emergent phenomenon within my brain and body, and my me-ness corresponds to being alive and conscious.

Author and (former) psychic investigator Susan Blackmore was strongly influential for me about 15 years ago during the time when I was questioning many "spiritual" things. Her book "In Search of the Light: The Adventures of a Parapsychologist" doesn't talk about God, but does about ESP and such. The "God" I was believing in and questioning had "actual effects" in the lives of believers, but I was doubtful. Her book described others she met as being (in my words) "strong believers" in "psychic energy" and whatnot. While she was doubtful but still held out hope by the end of her book, it fully convinved me that the only reason there's even talk about ESP and such is that some people BELIEVE so strongly it's there and can be found, even though no evidence has been found, in spite of a lot of efforts, both good and bad. The analogy between ESP believers and what I was taught to believe was strong, and her book made my beliefs fall like a house of cards: Why believe in anything for which there is no evidence?

Blackmore has written a (skeptical) book on out-of-body experiences titled "Beyond the Body" that I've not read (mostly because I don't "feel the need" to investigate it - it's easier to dismiss it and go on to other things in life) but I found this (more recent) online essay from her rather enlightening:
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NS2000.html
If that page is at all interesting, click on the link near the bottom, "Why I have given up", or this link, for a much longer and detailed article she wrote on the topic:
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Chapters/Kurtz.htm

I find it a little ironic that I "gave up" my own beliefs and 'spiritual investigations' after (and largely because of) reading her first book, but it wasn't until years later that she herself "gave up."

Bartholomew said:

This isn't the sort of discussion I was looking for.

I think I'll just bow out.

Click to expand...

Aww...well, I felt the need to say something, so I responded anyway. Bartholomew, if you don't read this, maybe someone else will find it interesting.

Death Wizard · Aug 6, 2008

I believe in rebirth, not reincarnation. In other words, my karmic force will continue on in another life vessel. But I'll be picking up where I left off, not starting at the beginning again.

It's a subtle but crucial difference.

How does your karma choose another body?

How does a falling leaf choose where to land ...

Bartholomew · Aug 7, 2008

I'll bow back in. I'm not in a foul mood now. Which helps.

benbradley said:
I like the idea that "the burden of proof is on the positive," else we can easily end up discussing the details of many spurious things that may or may not exist.

This is kind of where I wanted to go in the first place.

For some things, the burden of proof is not on the positive, but rather on the thing that seems to rub common sense the rawest.

Basically, when speaking of a possible afterlife, we have two possibilities. Either there is, or is not existence.

Neither suggestion is openly preposterous.

We can easily compare this to an argument for or against the existence of god, and apply the reasoning that the burden of proof must be on his existence, but this is only because a very good portion of us see no evidence that he does, or even can exist.

In the case an afterlife, we examine facts for evidence and find different things, namely:

(1 - Life exists elsewhere in the universe. We've found fossilized micro-organisms on space debris. (I am referring to meteorite ALH84001) We do not know the initial cause of life.

(2 - Life has persisted on earth, for a VERY long time, in a number of forms too numerous to mention.

(3 - [And I could be mistaken, but] doesn't one of the laws of physics dictate that information can never be lost? As in, grind me into meal, bake me, and blow me into dust, but it is still possible to divine that my remains were specifically human? The base components of life, being subject to these rules, would also have to persist on some level.

(4 - Taking 3 into account, there are some studies that suggest a corpse weights less at the moment of death.

For a pro #4 read:

For an anti- #4 read:"Blinded by the light" by P McCrory
http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/38/4/381# 3 is, of course, useless if #4 is bunk. And #4 is one of those incredibly difficult things to test. Which I loathe, but must consider if I am to view the topic objectively. (There are tests which suggest the opposite; that creatures die and then gain weight, which has other implications altogether. Unrelated ones.

)

Now, these bullet points do nothing for the "Heaven" or "Valhalla" arguments for an afterlife. However, the first two at least suggest that life is notsome random occurrence.

If life does not occur at complete random, it becomes feasible that life is somehow, however distantly, a recycled substance. Whether our consciousness ever enters this picture is complete conjecture. I am speaking only of the unique thing we call life.

Without recycled life, one must account for a near infinite supply (existing in an absolutely infinite universe. If your universe is parabolic, round, or donut shaped then the numbers are somewhat lower, but still absurdly plentiful.)

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