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wurdwise

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Why does writing a mainstream middle reader have to involve commercialism? How do you handle this tween thing? I googled tween, and there's lots of stuff there. I've been told my characters need to modern up their speech, and I'm trying to make sure the words I use are up to date for the way my two 12 year old characters talk. But, I am realizing this is a bigger challenge than I'd first thought, and I may bore kids these days with Maddy's life, she goes to lunch at the Senior Citizen's center with Grandma, she and Daddy and Grandma go eat at Myrtle's Blue Moon Cafe, for cripes sake!

But I don't like having to consider trends! Besides, one tween marketing site said as soon as something becomes cool,
it's not cool anymore. Woe is me.

And it's hard not to infringe on copyright, and everything is so
marketed, it's like roller skating around land mines! I have
discovered in the last few days that the places throughout my novel where i have used song lyrics would need permission,
and I don't want to or can't afford to do that, but what kid doesn't listen to music? Jeez, too many things to consider, should I change move this novel to 1965? LOL

What do you do?




 

paprikapink

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I kinda like the idea of Maddy being in the past, or in some non-specific time, independent of current fads. I don't know if that is any easier tho.

Maddy does read like an innocent thing; I like that, but I'm not a tweener. I have read a in a few places though of girls who are getting sick up and fed with the whole "virgin slut" style they are all supposed to follow. My daughter is certainly that way, but she's hardly typical. (We don't watch any TV, she's still afraid of things like Shrek, and at her school they can't wear jewelry, nailpolish, or shirts with pictures, and she likes it that way!) Anyway. I'm thinking it would be nice if all those family-oriented, thoughtful, sweet 12-yr-olds -- and there are plenty of them, they just aren't as noticeable as the mini-skirted girls with dyed hair (who are probably nice too) had a main character they could respect and identify with.

-Paprika
 

wurdwise

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Thanks, pkpk, I'm glad you said that, because I created Maddy not to be like that, I even have a scene with a girl like that and how disdainful Maddy is of it, though she's still no goody two shoes. I don't really know how to go about handling the time frame thing, this has all really just started occurring to me and I am almost done. Like I said, I don't want to folllow the bouncing ball of chasing commercialism, but I want to get published, and I did write this for girls like Maddy to relate to. Mmmhh,...to ponder....can you be modern and buck the system and still be acceptable to tweens? Is there an audience out there like your daughter big enough without almost ending up Christian fiction? But hell, I have the grown ups smoking and drinking, that won't work either. I'm just brainstorming here, maybe I should put this in the past...guess I'll sleep on it, and wait and see what other folks have to say.
 

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You know, wurdwise, I think you have a really valid question here. My present WIP (just started three days ago alongside other WIP LOL) deals with a girl growing up on a farm in Oklahoma, for crying out loud. I think there is a big enough segment of market (even boys will read this type of thing, remember--it has been proven!) to make your book, and mine, interesting. Don't panic.
 

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While I think commercial brands gives you an instant connection to certain eras and attitudes, I don't think it's necessary. With all the copyright issues, I'd rather avoid mentioning any name brands. But, I do understand why people do that.
 

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Take a Trip to the Mall

Wurdwise, I was in your position writing MG and even with an 11-year-old & a 13-year-old, I can only drill 'em so much. Take a trip to a mall do it on a Friday night when the kids gather there (they do here in NJ) and believe me, not only will you hear their slangs, you'll see diff. behavior patterns and get lots of character ideas for many more MGs. Visit the skating rinks and bowling alleys and parks -- find out where kids love to hang and go. My next move was to visit my kids school for the day but my kids begged me -- they said they are not ready to die from embarrassment. LOL. Hope this helps some.
 

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I solved the problem by my MC not having any friends LOL. Seriously, she's shy. But my book doesn't have that much "real world" in it, so I get away with as little as possible.

She wears jeans and a shirt to start out with. My illustrator drew her with jeans and a really cool pink shirt.
Hey, they can drink "soda", doesn't have to be "Coke." And you don't have to use lyrics, you can just say that she sang along. I think you can mention song titles and artists' names without problems.

Besides, you don't think Stephen King pays when he uses song lyrics, do you? No way, that's up to his publisher. Just go with it, if you have to change it later, you can.
 

wurdwise

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Ah, the things I could get away with if only I were Stephen King!
 

Lauri B

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Maybe the issue is more taking out phrases that make your characters seem dated or younger or older than they should be than it is inserting brand names or the latest fads. For example, kids in middle school don't say, "neat," or "cool" anymore (well, most don't anyway), but they would say, "sweet," or "hot." And while they don't all wear the same clothes, almost none of them would be wearing pant suits or twin sets, for example.
Not sure if this helps, but it's an easy fix to take out glaring anachronisms.
 

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Wurdwise & Nomad- That just goes to show how tricky it is to write for tweens! I teach 5th graders, and they all say "cool," but never say, "sweet." (In fact, you're definitely not cool if you say "sweet," and you're a straight up dork if you say "shweeeet!" But we're in Delaware, so it may be different on the west coast. By the time they get to 6th grade, they're still too immature to be left alone, but don't want to hang out with the parental units or grandparents. So, Wurdwise, I think it's an excellent idea to make your characters be from the 60's, maybe from a small town. If you really want them to be from the 2000's, you need to get in tune with how middle-schoolers are these days. Volunteer at a school- that's the best way. Also, read a lot of current middle grade novels.
 

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I almost think it is safer to set your novel in the past. Think about it--once you're finished with it, the way cell phones look and work (you'll be able to download songs onto them), vocab changes, clothes change, it'll be the past anyway. It seems the tween and teen market changes daily, doesn't it?


Here are a few other ideas: make your characters a few years younger. Put them on a farm in the middle of nowhere (got that idea from you, oneidii!). Or on an island. My young adult novel is set on a rural peninsula.
 

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You know what though -- I think it's probably ok for these girls in these books to be 'nice' girls. Because when you think about, those are probably the kids who are going to spend time reading books.

But then again, they may want to read about 'cool' girls so they can feel cooler. It is a tough subject.

But I always think if you are just true to your story and true to your character, you will get good results. Are you currently near finished as is? Maybe it would be good to get some tweener beta readers and see what they say about it?
 

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zeprosnepsid said:
Are you currently near finished as is? Maybe it would be good to get some tweener beta readers and see what they say about it?

Ah, good idea. One more thing: if you eschew current fashion, language, etc, your book will never read as out-dated material. Go with tees and jeans, "great" and "okay," and your book will be timeless. Sort of.

I hope I'm making some sense. I need my coffee.:Coffee:
 

wurdwise

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Ok, so they say it's a woman's perogative to change her mind, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

I said I wanted to take my novel back to the 60's, but I am finding myself resisting this, and I'll tell you why. First, the only reason this idea came to me was because people kept telling me that my 13 year old protagonist sounded too immature for 13. So, at first, I thought i needed to bone up on how kids talk now days, which led me into a passle of all kinds of things I thought I should take into consideration other than words, like current trends. But I bucked at that, instead thinking maybe it was my voice coming through, since what other yardstick did I have to go by but my own memories of how a 13 year old thought and felt? That's when I got the bright idea to go back to that time.

However.....my whole plot is based on her best friend Corey being a ultra geek and he finds her mother's death certificate on the computer, how Maddy learns her mother has been dead for years. By going back to the 60's, Corey would have to become a completely different character, for there were no computers for kids, and of course they'd have to find out she was dead another way, but that wouldn't be a big deal, it's just that I am balking at changing him and changing the whole novel just because someone said Maddy sounds immature. I could make her younger, maybe 11. I am stuck. You see, part of the thing with the innocent sound of the story is that it is based on the town I live in, which is actually noted for the fact that it is like going back into the past, famous for it in fact. People come from all over the country to tour the old Victorian houses and the quaint shops downtown. My town strives to keep it that way. So this innocence is still in place. Of course, I'm sure all the kids are by no means innocent and there's plenty going on that goes on everywhere else, but the thing that really got me to thinking about the wisdom of me making this major change, besides COrey the geek, was a girlfriend telling me on the phone last night that her 16 year old has no desire to get a driver's license.

Maybe I just don't want to do the work it takes to make such drastic character and plot changes, I have been wanting to finish this novel for months and move on to freelancing, but I can't see me putting it aside to do that, I might not ever finish it. Or maybe I just think kids keep thinking the same way, no matter what era.


Then I worked on Maddy last night for a few hours, and I was realizing the problem is not Maddy being immature, though one problem is that some of my slang is dated, the main problem is my voice. It's mine, but it's Maddy POV, the narrative has many spots where it's like this and it makes it sound as if it is in the past or that Maddy does't fit a thirteen year old profile.
Granny suggested I make Maddy a major bookworm, and I think that is the answer instead of going back to the 60's, which I DO NOT want to do for the reason stated above. I am getting rid of words like "pondering" or "traveling" I put a sentence on the first page that said one of the things she was looking forward to this summer was that she could read till her eyeballs bled if she wanted. Yes, she must be a bookworm throughout, doing that, plus getting rid of some of those obscure words kids wouldn't use and the dated slang, by golly, I think I might have it. There is a section farther down in the book where she is in Corey's room and he's on the computer and she says she doesn't want one, except maybe for school, she doesn't even watch that much TV, she'd rather lose herself in a book. I could have her talking about books more and things she read in a book or books she wants to read, make her bookworminess more pronounced.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this. This post is a compulation of one I made in another thread that got one response and an email where I expressed my conclusion. After I hear what you guys have to say, I'm going in and not coming out till this puppy is finished.

I never realized I was so the kind of person who needs encouragement, I thought myself a loner, but I'm not. Or is it validation I am seeking? Well, that's for another thread.

Thanks for any and all feedback. After this, the subject of Maddy is history until I can announce I have an agent or publisher, whichever comes first!

Denise
 

WhisperingBard

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Denise,
I think as long as you've laid the groundwork properly you won't have any problems. If the gentle nature of the town is established, and Maddy's bookworm personality is made clear, your readers shouldn't have any trouble following right along with you. It's when the proper groundwork hasn't been laid, I think, that things become jarring and your reader is thrown out of the book.

Cia
 

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Stormie: Whohoo! Yay for rural peninsulas and farms in BFE!
Wurdwise: Go with your heart and see what happens. I think-know-you'll be okay...let us know what the betareader says.
 

wurdwise

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Thanks, oneidii, I'll do that!

And yes, WhisperingBard, the groundwork will be there now, when it was not before. I see exactly what you are saying. As long as things are laid out clearly from the beginning, and if the story is well written, the reader will follow you anywhere!
 

Lauri B

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Hi Denise,
I've thought a lot about your opening chapter the last few days, and think that making Maddy a kind of shy bookworm would be a good solution to the issue of being a little young for 13--but I think she seems a bit like an old soul in a naive package rather than too young for her age. She has an older person's point of view. I think there are definitely times when the writer, not Maddy peeks through the writing, but I think you recognize where an adult's voice wanders into the narration rather than being true to a 13 year old.

I was thinking about why the chapter wasn't working--it was like watching a show (which is a positive comment--beautifully descriptive writing!) where not much happens. So if the plot revolves around Maddy discovering stuff about her mother, get that going way sooner. The digression about the colorful character (the inbred guy who eats raw hamburger) will work well later, when you can show it and not tell it, and you can weave in details about Maddy's friend as you go along. It's not like this is the second or third book in the series, where you have to sum up an entire novel's worth of action in the first three paragraphs so the reader knows what has happened up to this point. At the beginning of the chapter you talk about the good things that happen in threes--I think it would be a really good idea to get her mom thing going right up front--the boy at the dance can also be part of it, but the meandering way the first chapter currently gets going is unlikely to hold a child's interest long enough to get to the "good stuff." I have no doubt you can pull this off easily. I think it's more a matter of rearranging what you have and saving some of the lovely extras for later in the story.

It's hard to ditch parts of a work you really like, but a friend of mine once said that Faulkner always told writers to "kill all your darlings" when writing, since the "darlings" were what dragged stories down.

I hope this helps--I look forward to seeing the revised edition of Chapter 1, as well sa the rest of it.
 

wurdwise

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Nomad, that is so strange, you saying what you did about Maddy being an old soul, because I had the exact same thought yesterday! I played around with the idea of Maddy actually percieving herself this way. She has been raised by an old person, too, so she should rightfully be different than kids raised by young parents, and have brothers and sisters. She and her friend Corey are both only children, so they are a bit spoiled, sheltered, naive. And Maddy is pretty shy, or introverted might be a better word, around people she doesn't know well, but she's the total opposite with her family and Corey and his family, people she loves and trust. I have printed out all the helpful notes I have gotten from this board all along and I'm going to do the same thing with the ones in this thread.

The stuff about her mother? I moved it to the beginning of the novel last night. And I am going to post the revised first page for you when I finish this letter(!) LOL. I am very long winded, had you noticed?

However, I have to disagree with you about moving the rest till later or weaving it into the story. What I said about her mother is the hook, and readers like to wonder for a bit, mmmmhh, what's that about? You said yourself I don't have to fill in all the info in the beginning, and if I tell too much about her mother right off the bat, to me, that's what I would be doing. I have thoughts of hers about her mother and information planted throughout the first 4 or 5 chapters, then the reader learns the real deal in chapter 6, the way Maddy really feels about the whole thing and the fact that her grandma and Daddy never wanted to talk about it, how it makes her feel about herself, building to the climax and the awful truth coming out in Chapter 11 that her mother is dead. From there through the last chapter, Chapter 20, it's how Maddy is finally told the truth about the past, and how she deals with this information and the beginning of healing for her and her family. I think of the pace I wrote this book as a roller coaster I wanted my reader to ride, climbing, the wait, but you know the closer you get to the top, something's about to let loose, and when it does, it's a rough ride till you level out and take a deep breath of relief, knowing you are still in one piece and grateful for it.

Thanks for all your help. I am flattered that you've been thinking of my novel.
Here is the first page.


Trouble comes in threes. That’s what Grandma always says, anyway. But then good things must come in fours, because one; I turned thirteen last week, two; school let out for summer yesterday, three; I danced with Brandon Burton at the end of school party last night--which was totally unbelievable--and four; Daddy, who I haven’t seen in a month, will be home today for a week’s vacation.
Maddy counted to herself as she and her best friend and next door neighbor, Corey,
pedaled their bikes down the sidewalk on Main Street. When she heard the red robin and spied him in a tree, she pretended he was counting along with her; his song a one tweet two tweet; three tweet, four.
Smiling, she thought of all the things she and Daddy would do while he was on vacation, but like a pendulum her mind swung to Brandon. Maybe somebody bet him he wouldn’t ask me to dance. She squashed the idea like a bug, instead concentrating on the summer and what it held in store; staying up as late, reading till her eyeballs bled if she wanted, swimming and baseball. Three months stretched into the future like the yellow brick road in the Wizard of Oz. She would be Dorothy, and her dog Katie, a large Toto. Grandma would of course be Auntie Em, and daddy, well he could be one of the concerned uncles. But what would that make Corey? He was no coward, so he couldn’t be The Lion; he was smart, no way he could be The Scarecrow, and he had a big heart, meaning The Tin Man was out.
Maddy Weaver shook her head. Did everyone’s brain work like hers did, jumping all over the place, coming up with this outrageous kind of stuff? Unfortunately, it ended up where it did without fail if she let it wander too long, like a static ridden radio with one clear station playing only one song, Why Did My Mother Leave Me?
“Earth to Maddy,” Corey shouted.
“What?”
“I said I guess you have the big head after dancing with Braaandon last night.”
 
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Hi wurd,

I like your opening sentence. I also do like the first page. One thing: maybe put in that she was thinking about the book The Wizard of OZ by whats-s-face, (Frank Baum? Can't think of it right now.) since she's such a book-worm. Your protaganist, Maddy, reminds me of two characters, one pre-teen, the other 15, that I've used. Both quiet, both into books, but as I said earlier, I had one of them on that rural peninsula. (Oneidii--what's BFE?!) The other character lived in the country. And you're right--it would be very hard to set your story back a few decades.
 

wurdwise

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Thanks Stormie. That's a good place to reinforce her bookishness! I might just tack onto the end of the sentence, the Wizard of Oz, one of Maddy's all time favorite books.

And it's a relief to hear you agree it would be very hard to move this into the 60's. EEKK! You might as well consider it writing a whole new novel. Fuggetabout it!
 

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Yes! This is SO much better! I love the way you've kept all the best parts of Maddy--her innocence, her love of books, and her budding adolescent worries, but ditched the stuff that made everything drag. This is a great way to introduce the mom part early on (I didn't mean for you to explain the mom part, just to get it out there that it's a major part of the plot of the story). I can't wait to read the rest of it!
Lauri
 

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Oh, forgot one more thing: I would recommend changing the phrase, "why did my mother leave me?" to something a little more vague, like "where is my mother?" The reason I say this is that while I understand that every jumpy thought leads back to her mother, Maddy might not always be asking, "why did my mother leave?" That's such a specific question that I don't think it necessarily rings true that it would come back to that every single time.
 

wurdwise

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That is something to think about. "Why did my mother leave me?" Is too much, too brutal, and it could mean her mother left a week ago, for all the reader knows, and only left Maddy, it almost sounds like Maddy isn't really a part of her own family, when you think about it. But "Where is my mother?" might sound like Maddy knows her and expects her back soon. Which is also not the case.

The next time she thinks of her mother is in chapter two when she picks up an old ID bracelet with her mother's name on it, a bracelet she found in a junk drawer in the kitchen, but she never told anyone. It says she's tried as hard as she could to find a face to go with the name, but she can't remember. Then she drops it back in the jewerly box as if it's on fire, and thinks, Don't go there.

In chapter three, she sees a woman holding a baby, and a has a sharp pang of desire, then it says, thoughts of her mother come over her in waves, and it's always worse around her birthday, but she hurries away from the sight and distracts herself.

Her mother is not mentioned again until chapter 5, when she overhears some one say they feel sorry for Maddy because she's never had a mother, then she has a dream that night and her mother is calling her to find her. That's when she and Corey discover she's been dead since soon after she left, which was when Maddy was two. So she's never known her mother.

My point in telling you all this is that I change up the way I bring up her mother, keeping it sublte till the full disclosure. Originally, that first sentence about the radio I had "where is my mother" as you suggested, then I decided the reader needed to know Maddy's mother ran away.

As I write this, I am still mulling over what that sentence should be. With this information, maybe some of you have a great suggestion. I'm gonna mull it over some more while I piddle around on these boards.

I love this place and all you people. Thanks, Nomad, you are a wonderful moderator and a big, big help.

Denise
 
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