August Book Study: Ender's Game

brokenfingers · Jul 30, 2008

Well, here it is. This is where the Book Study for the month of August will be held.

(I’m currently away from home, visiting family, and will be away from my computer until Monday so I’m starting this thread today instead of tomorrow. But I won’t really be able to participate until after the weekend, so I just want to bring up some questions that I will get back to when I jump back in on Monday.)

First of all: Did you enjoy the book? Why or why not?
What was your impression of it?

And I’ll list some of the possible things we can discuss:

The Beginning:
- How effective was the opening hook?
- How effective was the first sentence? The first paragraph? The first page? The first chapter?
- When were you pulled into the author’s world? By the end of the first chapter?
- If not, when?
- How do you think this was accomplished? Or why do you think it wasn’t accomplished?
- What would you have done to change it/make it better?
- If you were an editor, what would your reaction be to the first chapter?
- Why do you think the average reader liked it so much?
And more…

The Protagonist:
- What did you like/dislike about the protagonist?
- How did the author introduce the protagonist?
- How did the author get you to become invested in the protagonist?
- What was different about the protagonist as opposed to other protagonists? What was the same? Did the author make the protag distinguishable? If so, how?
- What techniques did the author use to show the protagonist throughout the story?
- What were some of the characteristics the author gave the character and how did they work/not work?

The Characters:
- Did the author make the characters come alive for you?
- How did he/she do this?
- How were they described?
- How were they distinctive?
And more…

The Setting:
- Was the author’s world convincing?
- Did he/she make you feel you were there? How?
- What about the setting did you like? Not like?
- What would you have done differently?
And more….

The Plot/Story:
- Did you enjoy it? Why or why not?
- Was it different or similar to other plotlines in the genre? How?
- Was it believable? Predictable?
- Were there any twists, turns or surprises?
- Would you have thought of it? How does it compare to your own plotline of your WIP?
- Did it pull you through or did you have to wade through it?
- How was this done or how do you think it should’ve been done?
- If you were buying stories for a publisher, and this manuscript hit your desk (not knowing what you do now about its sales) would you have bought it or expected it to be successful?
- Why do you think the buying public enjoyed it so much?
- What variations, if any, would you have added to the storyline/plot?
And more…

The Style:
- What did you think of the author’s style of writing? Like it? Hate it?
- How much do you think this had to do with the success of the book, if any?
- What type of POV was used? How effective was it? Would the book have turned out different if the POV were done differently?
- How removed was the author from the story or how intrusive?
And more…

The Structure:
- How did the author unfold the story?
- Were the beginning, middle and end equally strong?
- How effective was the way the author gave you all the information?
Was it straightforward? Suspenseful? Predictable? Surprising?
- Could it have been done another way?
- Was it a linear structure or did the scenes jump around? How did this add/detract from the story or your enjoyment of it?
And more…..

The Theme:
- Was there any? What was it?
- Did you think it had an impact on your enjoyment of the story?
- Was it blatant or subtle?
- Do you think the average reader registered this?
- Do you think it may have affected him/her or contributed in any way to the success of the book?
And more…

Conflict:
- What was the main conflict?
- How was it handled?
- Was it a large part of the story or did the author keep it lying under the surface?
- What other conflicts did the author use in the story and when? (Internal and external.)
- What purpose did they serve?
- Would the story have been as enjoyable with less conflict? More?
- What types of conflict could’ve added to the story? Which conflicts subtracted from the story?
And more…

Dialogue:
- Was it realistic?
- Was it readable?
- How did the author handle ‘tags’?
- Was there a lot of dialogue or a little?
- Were there dialects? Slang? Profanity? Vulgarity?
And more…

The Ending:
- Was it satisfying? Why or why not?
- Did it come as a surprise or did you see it coming from page two?
- Would you have ended it the same?
- Was everything resolved?
- Would you be able to write a sequel?
- Would you buy another book from this author?
And more….

Nakhlasmoke · Jul 30, 2008

Argh, this is all so complicated, but thanks for starting the thread. I'll have to think a little (ow, brain hurty)

Hillary · Jul 30, 2008

I'm posting for no reason other than I want to be subscribed to this thread so that when (if?) I DO happen to think of something coherent and useful to say, I'll be able to race right in here.

Also to congratulate myself on putting a link in the OTHER thread, which was really a stroke of ~~mediocrity~~ brilliance on my part.

*beams*

rhymegirl · Jul 30, 2008

I think I'm going to copy and paste those questions into Word, then print it out and read them. And then try to answer them. I tried to think about some of those questions as I was reading the book. (they make you do that when you're an English major)

Lillyth · Jul 30, 2008

I can't possibly tackle all those questions at once, but I have to say that if I were stuck on a desert island and could only bring three books, this would be one of them.

I think this is one of the most brilliant books. Ever, ever, EVER.

That being said, I think Orson Scott Card does a tremendous job of creating his world. Battle School is very nearly real to me.

The only thing I thought was lacking (and this could just be my own lack of understanding of international politics (yes, I know it was all made up) but I thought the Warsaw Pact could have been explained a bit better.

For me, that is the one part of the book where I kind of go "Huh, I don't *quite* get it."

I think the way OSC begins each chapter with the adults talking is just brilliant. It puts you right into Ender's world from the very beginning, the adults against the kids.

I think this book contains not only a great story, but some of the most interesting philosophical thinking of modern times.

And now I must run away and ice my shin splints. But I WILL be back with much more. I just couldn't wait to say something...

brokenfingers · Jul 30, 2008

(I’m trying to post while waiting for my sister and my nephew to arrive…)

I originally read Ender’s Game when it was a short story, so I already knew the ending and the main jist of the story. It was a long time ago but from what I remember, the original short didn’t contain anything about the brother and sister or have much about Earth. It was basically the battle game scene with its particular ending.

I enjoyed the story and one of the things I find fascinating is the amount of reader loyalty (for lack of a better word) it has engendered.

Even now, my library copy is due back and I tried to renew it so I’d have it to refer to, but someone has requested it so I have to return it. I think that’s excellent for a book originally published in 1994.

(Family is here – gotta go. Carry on, folks!)

Oh, and there’s no need to tackle all those questions at once or even at all. Answer or post about whatever you wish.

Why don’t we talk about whether you liked it or not and then we can talk about the beginning…

Or maybe why you think people still enjoy this book and buy it and read it, almost 15 years after it was published...

Nakhlasmoke · Jul 30, 2008

Okay.

I will say one thing that bugged me even though it was explained in the text (and was in fact integral to some of the story-line) was the language and thought processes of children as young as six coming across as so very adult

Otherwise, I was amazed at how well unattributed dialogue worked. Far better than I'd ever thought it could, and I'll probably be less anal about it in my own work now.

Straka · Jul 30, 2008

I actually just bought this book...

Fenika · Jul 30, 2008

Major spoilers

For those who haven't finished yet, skip this post!

I'd like to jump to the ending.

I loved the book, don't get me wrong, but somehow the ending was flat.

The idea that Ender would be tricked into killing the buggers was there all along, but even so it seemed cheap. There were parts I did like- on page 293 (for those who have the same edition I do) Bean's line about the enemy's gate being down was great. And on page 297 Card ends the scene with some strong prose. But even so, I expected more. And as the novel went on, the impact and significance was lost on me as I stopped caring about what Ender did with himself.

Now, I say all that, because I feel like I've been left out of the game (so to speak

). The book was well written, and I don't know how Card might have changed the ending to make it more suitable for me (a touch of ego there, perhaps?), but I thought I'd bring it up. Anyone have any insight on the ending?

Cheers,
Christina

Mr Flibble · Jul 30, 2008

And as the novel went on, the impact and significance was lost on me as I stopped caring about what Ender did with himself.

Me too - as he stopped caring so much, so did I. I felt very distanced from him by the end - not a good thing.

Fenika · Jul 30, 2008

Ah-ha, you just put your finger on it (or part of it).

Yes, a depressed character is not very sympathetic. I guess Card wanted to show the ongoing effects of Ender's trauma, but he did it poorly (in my mind ofc). Something to keep in mind as I wrap up my own novel.

milhistbuff1 · Jul 30, 2008

I'll keep these questions in mind as I finish rereading EG.

Hillary · Jul 30, 2008

Okay... I really liked the book, and I'll get a chance to explain and jump in about that later, but it'll take me more time to digest and read your comments and think about Bill's (frickin' extensive) list of questions, etc.

Since it's BEFORE the 1st of the month, I'll say... If anyone cares, there are plot details revealed in here, that cover up to page 70 (of my edition). So if you're not that far and wish to keep it totally unknown, don't read...

But what doesn't take time for me to digest are the things that BUG THE CRAP out of me. So forgive me for starting with the negative. But I want a chance to get it off my chest, and maybe give someone a chance to point things out to me (I'm actually really asking for that, I'd love to have my issues resolved)...

When I read a story, my complaints come from something that takes me OUT of the story... One of those things was the Giant's Drink. (I'm still mulling over the other one.)

Maybe it's because of my age, or because it's the age of video games and violent little boys - I'm not sure. But I actually laughed out loud when they said by beating the Giant, Ender had "won the game that couldn't be won."

That seems, to me, to be completely ridiculous. I personally know plenty of young boys - and not anywhere near geniuses, mind - who would get sick of getting killed by whichever drink they took, and mess around in the fun game world... Kicking trees, hurling rocks, trying to hurt to giant, etc. etc. etc. They'd have figured it out. I saw nothing particularly impressive about him defeating the giant.

If he'd done it on the first try? Second try? Okay, impressive. After a million tries, he essentially just got bored and started messing around like every other boy would do and "won" that way? Sorry, I'm not impressed. I want to be, but I'm not.

Then I started thinking in my head about my brother, and watching him play and create video games when he was young, and how violent he and his friends were, and little boys I'd nannied for and how they'd kick and punch as a FIRST resort, not last. And I got kinda sad, because I realized I'd STOPPED reading and had begun to wonder if I was going to find the whole premise ridiculous. If this is as hard as he is going to work to convince me, I'm not going to buy any of it! Oh no oh no oh no! Gah!

Anyway, if anyone has a different way to look at that (provided it's more detailed than "Eh, you gotta accept it" because I tried that already)... I'd love to hear it, because it bummed me out to be SO involved in a book (I really did love it) and then be thrown out like that, beginning to doubt the whole set-up.

Fenika · Jul 30, 2008

I think the key to understanding that scene (and I made this up as I read your post), is that 1) Those games were set up as a puzzle. Violence didn't come into play until he killed the giant and later started drowning children. and 2) It is part of his resistance against becoming Peter. Time and again he didn't want to kill, but in this fantasy game he gave in and he did it. First with an 'adult' (giant) and then children (his peers).

Kinda creepy symbolically, but yes, I do remember reading it and thinking 'just kill the Giant already'

Perhaps less build up would have made it more acceptable? I'll have to go back later and see if there is an outside correlation that directly relates to that internal struggle...

Cheers,
Christina

Fenika · Jul 30, 2008

Hello.
More on the giant's drink.
Well, as a first note, my pages seem to be 5 behind Hillary's.

I looked over the scene, and again feel it was a bit too drawn out. It starts with him kicking the giant in the chin, but then he goes back into the old cycle. Looking for a solution in the glasses when he knows it is not there. I imagine that is to represent his resistance to what -must- be done (kill the buggers). Finally, once he considers the game unfair, he escalates Very quickly into violence (a pattern that plays out again in the end).
The end of the chapter, pg 65 for me, confirms my impressions of the purpose of the scene (#2 above)- his actions tied back to his fear of being Peter.

As a plot device, it is done very well. As a scene in and of itself, I think it is a bit weak. He stops the game at the end of that chapter, only to come back to it a few pages later (on his way to Salamander when he was transfered). The tension just wasn't there- it was forced.

Other events in his life at the time (aside from the transfer) go pretty well, so I guess the scene is in that particular location as a balance.

And just to reiterate- the book is wonderful. I'm only focusing on the negative b/c it is easier for me to approach that then pinpoint the highlights and express my thoughts on them (but I will! Once I get warmed up

)

Cheers,
Christina

Hillary · Jul 30, 2008

Bahamutchild said:
Hello.
More on the giant's drink.
Well, as a first note, my pages seem to be 5 behind Hillary's.

For the record... I was estimating pages, based on memory... I just checked, and Chapter 7 - Salamander (where the quote I pulled was from), starts on page 66. So we're probably close. I have... Uh... "The Author's Definitive Edition" apparently.

Fenika · Jul 30, 2008

Ah, excellent- so do I

Yep, Salamander starts on pg 66.

Hillary · Jul 30, 2008

Bahamutchild said:
1) Those games were set up as a puzzle. Violence didn't come into play until he killed the giant and later started drowning children.
2) It is part of his resistance against becoming Peter. Time and again he didn't want to kill, but in this fantasy game he gave in and he did it. First with an 'adult' (giant) and then children (his peers).

Bahamutchild said:
I looked over the scene, and again feel it was a bit too drawn out. It starts with him kicking the giant in the chin, but then he goes back into the old cycle. Looking for a solution in the glasses when he knows it is not there. I imagine that is to represent his resistance to what -must- be done (kill the buggers). Finally, once he considers the game unfair, he escalates Very quickly into violence (a pattern that plays out again in the end).
The end of the chapter, pg 65 for me, confirms my impressions of the purpose of the scene (#2 above)- his actions tied back to his fear of being Peter.

As a plot device, it is done very well. As a scene in and of itself, I think it is a bit weak. The tension just wasn't there- it was forced.

Thank you! All great points, and they give me a way to understand why it took Ender a while to figure it out... And the tension issues are probably one reason it fell flat for me, and put a disappointed taste in my mouth...

I guess what I'm left with is, okay, so Ender was fighting his personal Peter-demons before he could fight the Giant... But why did no one else every figure it out? It seems to me, in the 70 or 80 years they have had to train and prepare their child soldiers, they'd have found a few (thousand) kids who could have done that. I mean, right?

I guess that mentality echoed for me a bit throughout the entire book which is why I brought this up to begin with. Maybe I'm being annoying and stubborn about this, but I couldn't shake the feeling of it being a little unbelievable. I was willing and happy to believe the fabulous world Card created, but I couldn't quite believe THAT was all it took to defeat the bugger army. Or, rather, that Ender was the ONLY one who was capable. I mean... Smart, talented, young, vicious yet compassionate, didn't realize it was an actual war - Ender was great and perfectly suited. But in all those decades of recruitment and training and planning and that was it? I guess I missed the feeling of awe in what Ender was doing. His journey was amazing for a person, never mind a child, but that only-hope-for-Earth thing never quite sunk in for me.

So I loved the storytelling, I loved the story, I loved A LOT about the book, but I didn't love that one thing I had to "buy" into. I get what had to be done. I get why it had to be an unknown war. I don't get why it HAD to be Ender. I don't get why someone else, even another child, could have come up through the ranks and the training 20 years earlier, and had longer to prepare so the emotional stress didn't nearly break him or her several times, still be unaware he or she was fighting a real war, etc. (I should probably elaborate more, and will if it seems I'm being unclear.)

Whuzwrong with me?

Tomorrow, I swear I'm moving on to what I think was done really WELL. There's just a lot more in that category, and it's my day off today.

milhistbuff1 · Jul 30, 2008

the giant scene is symbolic of one of the core themes, Ender's struggling with thou shalt not kill... Stilson-Bonzo, the Giant- The Buggers. The purpose of the scene twofold:

show the escalation of violence in spite of Ender's beliefs.

Emphasizes his strategy of doing the unexpected and making it work... His abandonment of the traditional formations and Toon structure...

Lillyth · Jul 30, 2008

It is so interesting what portions of books folks react to...

I never, not for one second, stopped caring what Ender did, and I was totally wrapped up in the whole Giant's Drink thing. The funny thing is that my best friend, when reading Xenocide, railed and railed about Novinha and how she didn't care one iota what happened to her. While reading Lost Boys (both of these books are OSC books), my husband had to listen to my endless complaints about how much I hated the main characters and their stupid Mormon sensibilities (no offense to any Mormons out there, I just hated *these particular* Mormons & how they expressed their religion). I not only didn't care what happened to them, I found myself hating them so much I thought they deserved every bad thing that happened to them just for being so insipid and disgusting.

I am curious as to how we, as authors, deal with this. I wonder then, just how much of the burden of connecting to the characters is on the reader.

I, personally, having read Ender's Game many years ago, had no problem swallowing the video game thing. I even thought it was brilliant. The way that the game suddenly had to create a whole new area because of Ender's actions. It also WAS written over a decade ago, back before things like Grand Theft Auto...

I also wonder how much being writers effects the way we read.

It seems most of you are novelists. I am not. I am a screenwriter. I do not read novels through the same filters you (presumably) do. However, I notice that I have a hard time just getting absorbed in a movie these days because I keep assessing the script.

However, when I read, I still read to get sucked into a good story.

Reading a screenplay, well then, that's where I get "sucked out" easily.

I don't think I meant to type most of that, but, that was where my thoughts ended up. I know it's not so much about the book, but I'd be curious to know what everyone thinks about that, about what makes one reader sympathetic to a character and one not, and how how much being a writer takes us away from the reading experience.

Anyway, I'm off to go play a board game with my family before they come over here and start pulling out my fingernails so I can't type anymore...

;-)

NicoleMD · Jul 30, 2008

I thought the first half of the book was pretty brilliant, but the latter half left me desiring much more.

I was moved by the tension in the first few chapters: Ender's dealing with losing his chip, bullies, and sibling rivalry. That got me in his corner pretty quickly. The introduction to the battle school had me hanging off each word, and I enjoyed getting to meet the characters.

But as Ender became more isolated from his peers, I also became isolated from him. Around this same time, Valentine's POV kicked in hard, and I really didn't care for being in her head. I really don't think there was enough payback to justify it, and what there was with Peter/Locke at the end just seemed tacked on.

Despite not caring a lick for Ender, being annoyed at his whinyness, and the author pounding me over the head over and over about how Ender wasn't a killer, I did feel somewhat compelled to continue reading. I wish there would have been a little more time with Ender sniffing around at the Command School, trying to uncover what was going on. A little more conflict would have been nice. It all seemed a little bit anticlimactic for my taste.

Whew! I didn't know I had that much to say!

Nicole

Fenika · Jul 30, 2008

Lillyth said:
I am curious as to how we, as authors, deal with this. I wonder then, just how much of the burden of connecting to the characters is on the reader.

Since all readers bring their own experience and expectations to the game, there is only so much we can do. Writing is an art, same as movies. Each person will take something different away. The burden with the author is only in satisfying themselves that most readers react as hoped (or maybe the author only wants any reaction- seems more common in poetry imo)

As Card points out in the intro of the definitive edition- most people can relate to Ender's struggles against his hardships. I don't think all of those people can relate- or want to relate- to the Ender that breaks down at the end. There was so much hope and accomplishment at the beginning that the end became salt on the wound. Where's the catharsis? Even the search for a bugger world was not particularly healing or hopeful (to me)

And good point about the GTA (violence in modern games). I remember thinking this myself, but then wondering why a bunch of army brats didn't all turn to the violent solution. But the idea was right, the execution was just a bit off for most/some *modern* readers.

Lillyth · Jul 30, 2008

I guess what I'm left with is, okay, so Ender was fighting his personal Peter-demons before he could fight the Giant... But why did no one else every figure it out? It seems to me, in the 70 or 80 years they have had to train and prepare their child soldiers, they'd have found a few (thousand) kids who could have done that. I mean, right?

That actually DOES get explained in a later book.

I won't spoil it for you, but suffice to say that no, no child other than Ender ever could have done it, or would be able to again.

But it *does* get covered later...

Fenika · Jul 30, 2008

Page please!

Nakhlasmoke · Jul 30, 2008

Ender's reluctance to use violence also bugged me at first (re: Giant's Drink) and puzzled me - then I remembered that the book *is* dated. Even so, I'm still not 100% convinced by that scene, although I agree it highlights his reluctance to kill as a solution. I think the part that annoyed me was that he knew it was just a game, so why the problem with killing a construct. It's a little flaky.

August Book Study: Ender's Game

brokenfingers

Walkin' That Road

Nakhlasmoke

yes

Hillary

Neural Trailblazer

rhymegirl

It's a New Year!

Lillyth

brokenfingers

Walkin' That Road

Nakhlasmoke

yes

Straka

Bored Fanatic

Fenika

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Fenika

milhistbuff1

Hillary

Neural Trailblazer

Fenika

Fenika

Hillary

Neural Trailblazer

Fenika

Hillary

Neural Trailblazer

milhistbuff1

Lillyth

NicoleMD

Onomatopotamus

Fenika

Lillyth

Fenika

Nakhlasmoke

yes