Taking the Temp of P&CE

In my view, the P&CE forum:


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William Haskins

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there have been some passing comments made the past few days indicating that P&CE is less welcoming (both in the totality of posts and in the policing by mods) of some viewpoints than of others.

what's your take?
 

donroc

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Yes, it can be like the NFL ref who nails the person hitting back at an aggressor rather than ejecting the original perp. I have been so warned when responding to particularly vile, insulting, or blatantly erroneous posts.

I have not posted on some threads recently because I have restrained myself from countering some of the most extreme posts. I have known since my early teens never to argue with a fool -- and more recently here with assorted troll provocateurs.


In more than a few cases I do not believe their gratuitiously offered bios of age and sex. In others, I have observed some of the most aggressive posters offer no info when I look up their avatars. Their privilege, of course, but verrrrrry interesting.
 

MattW

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From my POV, I see there being a fair amount of crossover when it comes to some issues.

But, a personal opinion, the liberal views tend to be more hard-left across the board, and the conservative views are right-leaning without too much far-right, yet "righty" individuals aren't conservative on every issue.
 

Cranky

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From my POV, I see there being a fair amount of crossover when it comes to some issues.

But, a personal opinion, the liberal views tend to be more hard-left across the board, and the conservative views are right-leaning without too much far-right, yet "righty" individuals aren't conservative on every issue.

Yup, and I know of at least one or two "lefties" that are conservative on some issues as well. I think there's a very interesting mix, for the most part. I like it...I think of it as b.s.' ing in a neighborhood bar. :D
 

Haggis

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No. Seriously. IMO, it used to lean fairly heavily to the left, but, what with the comings and goings of members, I think it tends to lean somewhat to the right now. My point is, it's not static. It changes over time.
 

nevada

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I, believe it or not, try not to read here or even post. However, when I do I find the discussions mostly respectful, even though it gets heated sometimes. There will always be individuals who have ideas but no facts to back them up, or who get ideas without having thought about it, who perhaps ape the opinions of people they admire or feel sympathetic to without examining those ideas or questioning them. But those people are everywhere.

On the whole, I have not seen an outright dismissal of unexamined ideas without at least some attempt to reason. When i do read a thread I have never seen anyone say, "well you don't know what you're talking about, you're an idiot, shut up." Not to anyone with a thought out opinion anyway.

I suggest that the people complaining have perhaps been called on certain shaky beliefs and they don't like to examine those beliefs and have blamed the other person for their own discomfort.

(Aren't you proud of me. I didn't use the word moron once.:) )
 

rugcat

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From my POV, I see there being a fair amount of crossover when it comes to some issues.

But, a personal opinion, the liberal views tend to be more hard-left across the board, and the conservative views are right-leaning without too much far-right, yet "righty" individuals aren't conservative on every issue.
Well of course you do. You yourself lean right. I tend left, so I see it exactly the opposite way.

But one thing that skews the traditional right/left demographic is that many "conservative" posters here are libertarians, self professed or otherwise. They tend to be quite liberal, even radical on social issues, while remaining far right on foreign policy and the proper function of government. (The less, the better.) So in that sense, they don't toe the conservative party line as much as do traditional liberals.

But what I've seen lately on PC&E is what I consider an influx of some truly nasty posters. It's not a matter of differing ideologies -- it's a matter of tone. A smug, contemptuous, total lack of respect for anyone who doesn't see life through the same prism as they. Civility is a foreign concept; gratuitous snarkiness rules the day.

And this causes otherwise reasonable people to become angered and reply in kind, thus lowering the entire discussion to an "Oh yeah, sez who?" mentality.

I would not care to see a forum where people are invariably polite, tiptoeing around other's feelings, preceding every controversial statement with IMHO. What a bore. But I don't enjoy finding myself getting angry every time I read a post, either.

There are plenty of people on this forum I disagree with. Sometimes arguments become heated, sometimes even personal, but most of those I disagree with I do respect. Some I even like, personally. But that collegiality is evaporating in the forum as a whole.

So no, I don't think it's the differing viewpoints that cause trouble as much as it is the tone and the personalties involved.

Solution? I don't see one.
 

Cranky

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No. Seriously. IMO, it used to lean fairly heavily to the left, but, what with the comings and goings of members, I think it tends to lean somewhat to the right now. My point is, it's not static. It changes over time.


You may have a point there, Haggis. It did seem a bit more left when I first started posting in here. Now, the pendulum has started to swing the other way.

But...overall, I'd say that the majority of posters on here tend to lean towards the center from their various left/right positions. :D
 

William Haskins

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No. Seriously. IMO, it used to lean fairly heavily to the left, but, what with the comings and goings of members, I think it tends to lean somewhat to the right now. My point is, it's not static. It changes over time.

agreed (hence the thread title, implying a snapshot).

the results so far (anecdotal and incomplete, for sure) do seem to indicate that there's a far more predominant persecution complex among our friends on the left (3 votes for "hostile to liberal views vs. none of the reverse)...

this despite a fairly consistent cavalcade of comments (some implicit, some explicit) that anyone who leans right dabbles in fascism, or is a mouthbreathing reactionary, or a holocaust apologist, or a "wingnut".

this mirrors my perception of hardcore liberals and progressives in the general population, who are far more given to victimhood and a general sense of political martyrdom.
 

kuwisdelu

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this despite a fairly consistent cavalcade of comments (some implicit, some explicit) that anyone who leans right dabbles in fascism, or is a mouthbreathing reactionary, or a holocaust apologist, or a "wingnut".

I don't think that's been most of us....
 

mscelina

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Despite my love of politics, I don't particularly like P&CE at the moment and am trying to avoid posting there. I'm vastly indifferent to the liberal or conservative spins--that doesn't bother me at all. *shrug* The attitude there overall, and not singling out any group of posters, is currently poisonous. It makes me angry and I try to keep from that state of mind as much as possible.
 
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Plot Device

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this mirrors my perception of hardcore liberals and progressives in the general population, who are far more given to victimhood and a general sense of political martyrdom.

I think this is due to the very nature of Pro vs. Con. Traditional and purist Pro wants change and foreward momentum. Traditional and purist Con wants everything to stay exactly where it is. So the Pro is doing all the work --and getting nowhere-- while the Con is just sitting there precisely where he wants to, perfectly thwarting all of the efforts of Mr. or Ms. Pro. This degree of frustration and state of perpetual failute can certainly lend to a sense of victimhood.


(BTW, I used to self-identify as a neo-Con, but now I call myself a neo-Progressive.)
 

Cranky

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Despite my love of politics, I don't particularly like P&CE at the moment and am trying to avoid posting there. I'm vastly indifferent to the liberal or conservative spins--that doesn't bother me at all. *shrug* The attitude there overall, and not singling out any group of posters, is currently poisonous.

Yes. As rugcat said, it's more an issue of personalities, rather than ideologies, that seems to be P&CE's current bane...
 

kuwisdelu

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I think this is due to the very nature of Pro vs. Con. Traditional and purist Pro wants change and foreward momentum. Traditional and purist Con wants everything to stay exactly where it is. So the Pro is doing all the work --and getting nowhere-- while the Con is just sitting there precisely where he wants to, perfectly thwarting all of the efforts of Mr. or Ms. Pro. This degree of frustration and state of perpetual failute can certainly lend to a sense of victimhood.

Quoted for truth. This comes out especially with things like global warming/climate change, peak oil, alternative energy, etc.
 

alleycat

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I only look at the P&CE threads occasionally. Sometimes it seems like there are more posters with liberal views, and at other times more with conservative views; so, overall, I think it's fairly balanced. However, I doubt it's a fair representation of the country as a whole. For example, if a poll was taken here on same sex marriage (and maybe it has and I didn't see it), I would guess the vote would be something like 2 to 1 in favor of it; while I would guess an actual countrywide vote would be 2 to 1 against. Again, just guesses, and I just used that as an example of one "hot button" issue.
 

mscelina

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Yes. As rugcat said, it's more an issue of personalities, rather than ideologies, that seems to be P&CE's current bane...

I don't think it's so much personalities, Cranky, as it is a sense of entitlement. Posters who start threads without citations, posters who have obvious agendas--some of them spew out whatever they wish because they are ENTITLED to do so. I've disagreed with many a poster in P&CE, and sometimes the debates got heated. However, those of us who try to play by the rules never feel ENTITLED to force our opinions down everyone else's throats.
 

Plot Device

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Despite my love of politics, I don't particularly like P&CE at the moment and am trying to avoid posting there. I'm vastly indifferent to the liberal or conservative spins--that doesn't bother me at all. *shrug* The attitude there overall, and not singling out any group of posters, is currently poisonous.


I did get a "friendly" rep point from someone last month who didn't like the fact that I started a new thread about Peak Oil and he insisted I should keep all Peak Oil comments relegated to just one master thread from now on. I said "thanks but no thanks" to his advice.

This person I have ultimately come to see as a nudge and even a troll. And when I got into a tangle with him two weeks ago, I got showered with rep points from other posters who said he was indeed a troll who merely liked to get pissy with people for the sheer delight of the scuffle.



My overall point is that I do sense a desire on the part of some posters here to "control" the board. As for me, the P&CE forum is such a fast-moving forum that I see no need to be involved in every last thread. I just stick with the ones I like (which is usually never more than about 15% of all the threads in this whole sub-forum) and totally ignore the others. In fact, the only time I ever wander into a thread that originally held no interest for me is when it gets locked, and then my own morbid curiosity just plains whats to see what the heck happened.




.
 

rugcat

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the results so far (anecdotal and incomplete, for sure) do seem to indicate that there's a far more predominant persecution complex among our friends on the left (3 votes for "hostile to liberal views vs. none of the reverse)...
Could be. Or could be an accurate assessment of the current tenor of the forum.
 

Cranky

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Could be. Or could be an accurate assessment of the current tenor of the forum.

Depends on your point of view, which is sorta the point. :D
 

William Haskins

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could be.

let me just say that i've always loved this forum, the mix of views and the fair moderation of it.

and i always appreciate sparring with those of all political persuasions.
 

Cranky

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I don't think it's so much personalities, Cranky, as it is a sense of entitlement. Posters who start threads without citations, posters who have obvious agendas--some of them spew out whatever they wish because they are ENTITLED to do so. I've disagreed with many a poster in P&CE, and sometimes the debates got heated. However, those of us who try to play by the rules never feel ENTITLED to force our opinions down everyone else's throats.

See, to me, that smacks of a personality problem, rather than an ideological one. *shrug*
 
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