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Dario D.
06-13-2008, 02:44 AM
Hi, ladies.

I was just curious as to what "women's issues" books address exactly. Can you list some topics?

I've noticed in the past that there are entire sections in book-stores on "women's issues", but almost nothing on men. (here's a fun fact: Amazon has 3,000 books on men's health, and 20,000 on women's. I know health is obviously more complicated for women, what with pregnancy and all, but that's still obviously at least an outer shell of "women's issues".)
-

It's funny... (and I say this in the most whimsical, not-thought-out sense) 'Seems like the only issues MEN have are "women's issues" too. ;) (at least going by stereotype) But I wish more men were more "issue-conscious", and then they would live longer. I think they just don't give a crap... or at least not as much of one, according to their stereotype in the western world.

I'm quite different in that regard - very analytical of allllll kids of issues on both sides of the aisle - but still wonder what some of these women's issues might be, in case any have slipped under my radar.

Skyraven
06-13-2008, 02:50 AM
women's issues can include the following:
motherhood, relationships, illnesses that affect only women, self-esteem, etc. Its really too much to list here. Try googling it to see what comes up.

veinglory
06-13-2008, 02:55 AM
Women's issues are issues you have because you are a woman, or issues that you experience differently because you are a woman. More concrete examples will tend to be discrimination and gender-based violence, at the warmer end it may relate to female fashion, feminist philosophies, grrl culture (chick flicks etc) and motherhood.

Dario D.
06-13-2008, 03:23 AM
Thanks for the info so far. :)


Women's issues are issues you have because you are a woman
Ohhhhhh, I see.

;)


Try googling it to see what comes up.
Yeah, I tried that, but usually the discussion that results from a forum thread can result in the sum of an entire day's worth of Google-searching, because you get the insight and accumulated wisdom handed to you straight, rather than having to filter through thousands of pages of scatterbrained junk. (although the first few links are pretty good for getting a general understanding of what topics are out there, so I have to hand you that one) ;)

I also like to hear the opinions of real-life people, such as you find here... :) When doing research, depending on the topic, I don't care too much to listen to article writers all the time, because they're often (though not always) jumped-up on too many years of letting their biased opinions grow in unruly directions... (or, in simpleton lingo, they feel "fake and dry"). When reading reporter-style articles on things, I often feel like there's a paid-per-word, got-his-college-degree writer on the other end, just doing his job, skimming on things without touching on the "heart".

...kind of like the difference between reading a newspaper article on some war, compared to reading a soldier's personal accounting of it. It's like 2 different wars.

veinglory
06-13-2008, 04:04 AM
I would note that many university departments have now moved from "womens studies" to "gender studies" and some work is now being done on masculinity and mens issues--which are of course issues you have because you are a man ;)

Ravenlocks
06-13-2008, 05:42 AM
If you've browsed entire bookstore sections on women's issues, you should have a good idea what they are. :) Since you wanted our personal takes, I'll say I'm a woman but I don't really know what women's issues are. It sounds like a very broad category. If I'm looking for information on an issue I'm dealing with, I generally look for that specific topic and don't pay much attention to how it's categorized. But I guess almost anything could become a "women's issue" or a "men's issue" if the treatment of the subject matter is gender-specific.

Bravo
06-13-2008, 05:45 AM
i believe the real question is:

what's not an issue for women?

why do they have to make such a big deal about everything?

StoryG27
06-13-2008, 05:49 AM
i believe the real question is:

what's not an issue for women?

why do they have to make such a big deal about everything?
LOL! Wait, no.

Bravo. . .go sit on the naughty chair. Don't give me those sad eyes. Go.

C.bronco
06-13-2008, 05:54 AM
Key Women's Issue as per my perspective:

Where to get the best chili dogs
The nutritional value of Coors Light
The shoe section at Marshall's
Nascar
How to procure a scaffolding gratis so that I can paint that window in my family room
How to pay the mortgage
I have to remember to pick up dill, cilantro and avacados before Saturday
Mulching
Good go-kart programs for six-year-olds.

Dario D.
06-13-2008, 06:06 AM
Whimsical note:

if the treatment of the subject matter is gender-specific.
I'll notice you don't say "sex-specific"... I like that. I'm sick of everything nowadays referring to male/female-specific things as regarding sexes. "What is your sex?" "The sickness affects both sexes." "We need to get this cat sexed." Dang-nabbit, would it break your face off to ask me my gender? I'm certain that the people out there who lend an odd look to this outweigh those who insist in saying "sex" nine to one... outside of any medical setting.

Thanks for your take, by the way. :) (and to everyone else)

Plot Device
06-13-2008, 06:14 AM
women's issues can include the following:
motherhood, relationships, illnesses that affect only women, self-esteem, etc. Its really too much to list here. Try googling it to see what comes up.


I think icerose pretty much covered all the "serious" stuff that gets played with a straight face.

The less serious stuff includes:

astrology (woman are far more pervasive consumers of astrology than men)
fashion (about 65%-75% of all fashions are marketted toward women and men get far less attention as well as far less floor space at the mall)
romance literature (men consume porn --visual and photographic often with few or no written words involved; but women consume romance literature, having almost no pictures (maybe the front cover), and very dialogue-heavy)
gossip (women want a STORY, they are far more likely to read a tabloid than men)
spirituality/religion (women are far more likely to attend church or somehow ascribe to a higher power)

Try watching about 15 hours of Lifetime Television and sample their program lineup. It's a far far far cry from Sci-Fi Channel or Spike TV or even History Channel.

jennifer75
06-13-2008, 06:35 AM
There is a thread in Office Party called The Girlie Thread....check it out.....loads of ""women issues" discussed in there. Relationships, bad menstrual cycles, pregnancy, idiotic husbands/boyfriends, all of it.

Ravenlocks
06-13-2008, 07:11 AM
i believe the real question is:

what's not an issue for women?

why do they have to make such a big deal about everything?
Why do men always chime in on threads asking for women's input? Huh? Can you guys not read? ;)

Rest assured the annoying habits of men are just as, well, annoying as the annoying habits of women. In that there is true gender equality.

:D

CACTUSWENDY
06-13-2008, 07:14 AM
My two cents....

I bet more women read mags. that deal with 'issues' then men do.

And let's face it. It is always about money. I bet more men read the skin/sex mags then women do. That might be the place for men to read about their 'issues'. (lol)

Bottom line is what will sell the most.

Ravenlocks
06-13-2008, 07:15 AM
I'll notice you don't say "sex-specific"... I like that. I'm sick of everything nowadays referring to male/female-specific things as regarding sexes. "What is your sex?" "The sickness affects both sexes." "We need to get this cat sexed." Dang-nabbit, would it break your face off to ask me my gender? I'm certain that the people out there who lend an odd look to this outweigh those who insist in saying "sex" nine to one... outside of any medical setting.

I didn't even think before I typed.

:)

Joycecwilliams
06-13-2008, 11:08 AM
Bravo is a women's issue. :)


i believe the real question is:

what's not an issue for women?

why do they have to make such a big deal about everything?

Joycecwilliams
06-13-2008, 11:10 AM
My two cents....

I bet more women read mags. that deal with 'issues' then men do.

And let's face it. It is always about money. I bet more men read the skin/sex mags then women do. That might be the place for men to read about their 'issues'. (lol)

Bottom line is what will sell the most.

Men don't read. They only look at pictures.. :)

Joycecwilliams
06-13-2008, 11:23 AM
Seriously here are my women's issues, past and present.

Believe this or not it's true. I was turned for several jobs when I was first married, because "You might get pregnant."

I had to quit one of my jobs when I became pregnant because they didn't want pregnant women working in a fashionstore.

Now that I'm older... I'm too old.

when my daughter was missing the police wouldn't take me seriously until my husband went to the police station with me.

Menstral problems.
Menopause problems

Raising a teenage granddaughter...when I should be enjoying life...

Not making the same wages as a man for the same job.

Gaining a pound when I flirt with a candy bar.

PMS- Putting up with Men's Stupidity. :) just kidding.

Breast Cancer

Uterine Cancer

Colon Cancer

My grandmother and mother both died from colon cancer. No breast cancer in my family. However whenever I go to the doctors they want me to get a mamogram... and never ask about a colonoscopy.. I had to almost beg a doctor to get one ordered for me.

I know mamos are important... and I do get them, but it bothers me that doctors over look other health risks.

Everyone thinks that because you have a vagina you know where everything in the house is located...

I have a lot more... but I need to get sleep..

night night... :)

jennifer75
06-13-2008, 08:29 PM
I know mamos are important... and I do get them, but it bothers me that doctors over look other health risks.




Exactly. I tried to get a physical once because I just felt like shit ALL OF THE TIME. Wouldn't give me one. I wasn't old enough. A man goes in with sore balls, he gets a physical. At any age.

Thump
06-13-2008, 08:48 PM
Yup, "women's issues" are actually "men with issues about women giving women crap all the time" ;)

Mr Flibble
06-13-2008, 08:53 PM
I have issues!

Where are all the hot men at?

Who stole the baby oil and handcuffs?

Why do they not make motorbikes I can get my feet down on?

OK technically they aren't specifically women's issues. But I think of myself as a person, not a gender. A book on 'women's issues' might well bore me senseless. As far as I can see men have similar issues to address ( apart from say uterine cancer, but then they get prostate cancer instead). A book on just issues, well that'd be ok.


Believe this or not it's true. I was turned for several jobs when I was first married, because "You might get pregnant." Someone tried that with me once ( my first marriage) -- I said I wasn't any more likely to get pregnant when married than I was single, cos I was getting it less. I got the job :)

sassandgroove
06-13-2008, 08:57 PM
Try watching about 15 hours of Lifetime Television and sample their program lineup. It's a far far far cry from Sci-Fi Channel or Spike TV or even History Channel.
BUt but but, I watch Sci Fi, Spike and History and I don't watch Lifetime. What doest that say about me?

sassandgroove
06-13-2008, 09:01 PM
Whimsical note:

I'll notice you don't say "sex-specific"... I like that. I'm sick of everything nowadays referring to male/female-specific things as regarding sexes. "What is your sex?" "The sickness affects both sexes." "We need to get this cat sexed." Dang-nabbit, would it break your face off to ask me my gender? I'm certain that the people out there who lend an odd look to this outweigh those who insist in saying "sex" nine to one... outside of any medical setting.

Thanks for your take, by the way. :) (and to everyone else)
People and animals have a sex. Boats have a gender.

Plot Device
06-13-2008, 09:13 PM
BUt but but, I watch Sci Fi, Spike and History and I don't watch Lifetime. What doest that say about me?


That you and I would make great TV-buddies. (Although I don't much like Spike TV.)

sassandgroove
06-13-2008, 09:21 PM
Oh I only watched Spike when Blade was on. I was just goin' for the funny. I heard a rumor they canceled it because too many women watched it. Does it occur to them that some women were watching it WITH THEIR MEN?! UGH. And that women spend money, too.

FinbarReilly
06-13-2008, 10:18 PM
Wait a sec: Sci-Fi is a men's only channel? Since bloody when? Almost all major series have strong female characters, and they explore emotional issues far more than they should on an action show.

Since Buffy and the X-Files, I just don't buy the logic that sci-fi is female unfriendly...


The stuff you learn on these discussion boards...

FR

jennontheisland
06-13-2008, 10:22 PM
I have issues!

Someone tried that with me once ( my first marriage) -- I said I wasn't any more likely to get pregnant when married than I was single, cos I was getting it less. I got the job :)


*Bows to the greatness that is IRU*

I got a similar question. I have one, he asked it I was planning more. I asked if he was. They offered the job, I declined.

Woman's Issue for me: All these freaking blah blah books and articles that tell women how hard done by they are, and how difficult it is to make it in a man's world. I hate the assumption of victimization.

Kalyke
06-13-2008, 11:38 PM
Now I suppose it is about nail color, and chick-flicks, but at its core it is about serious things, like why are female fetuses aborted in some cultures, and why do widows chose to burn themselves rather than go on and live in a world where a woman without a man is treated as a tramp, or damaged goods. Why are women shut out disproportionally from opportunities. I just left a place where it was commonly known that the managers of one of the best paying departments would never even consider hiring a woman under the mistaken belief that a woman could not do the job, when it was quite obvious one could. The job description specified that the applicant had to be able to lift 100 pounds even though none of the men on the job had ever lifted 100 pounds without help. The job description was written specifically to keep women from applying-- basically scare them away before they even filled out an application.

sassandgroove
06-13-2008, 11:54 PM
Now I suppose it is about nail color, and chick-flicks, but at its core it is about serious thingser- why would you suppose that? Are you the only deep woman out there. Are the rest of us concerned we'll get our hair mussed up if we think of anything with substance?

HeronW
06-14-2008, 12:02 AM
Women's issues:
Equal respect as a gender, not as property.
Equal education.
Equal health care.
Equal pay for equal work.
Equality in religion--most major religions feel that women aren't 'cut out/holy enough/fill in your own line of patriarchial bullsh*t here' to be rabbis, priests, imans, etc.
..this for starters...

Polenth
06-14-2008, 12:06 AM
Typical women's issues books don't address any of my issues. My issues are things like:

-Why aren't there more books with robots?
-Where can I get my own robot?
-Where are the doughnuts?

The ideal would be a book on how to build your own doughnut-making robot, but I've yet to find it.

As far as serious issues go, there are lots of serious issues in the world. The ones I feel more connected with are environmental, rather than people-specific. That isn't to say other issues don't matter, but it's not where my focus is.

Dario D.
06-14-2008, 03:40 AM
Woman's Issue for me: All these freaking blah blah books and articles that tell women how hard done by they are, and how difficult it is to make it in a man's world. I hate the assumption of victimization.
Oh, +1. I was enthralled when I heard that America's favorite Dr. Laura was trying to bring to light the fact that men are MORE likely to be physically abused by women... just that they won't report it.

A quote [from here] (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,212298,00.html):

The PSS is particularly important because some of its findings are surprising. Schlessinger touched on one of the surprises; although men are three times more likely than women to be the perpetrators of violence (in general), they are twice as likely to become victims of physical violence or threats.

Eleven percent of men surveyed experienced personal violence compared to 5.8 percent of women.I think the issue is that while men are bound by this "you can't touch women, because they're weaker" limiter, women see it more like "it's more alright to touch men, because they're stronger." Of course, I don't know what types of families we're talking about here (certainly not any I can relate with), but for those who DO fall into the "physical violence is an option" category, there's some food for thought.

Now, I don't mean to play down violence on either side of the aisle, or make women look like complainers (because that's not what I think or imply), but I DO mean to imply that there's a list things I hate about aggressive feminists, such as their reality-distortion tactics that turn our society into men-hating mud-slingers. (and make it incredibly difficult, and socially unacceptable for men to complain about their own treatment)

I really, really don't buy what feminists say about the western world "hating women" (I mean, individual instances of apparent inequality pop up here and there, sure). Last I checked, women were by and large the "cherished ones" of the male race, and are celebrated in almost every facet of the male-controlled media (especially among most ordinary people - the only thing that really matters) minus sit-coms, where everyone is made to look ridiculous. Sure, the downfalls of ALL are exploited - turn on a TV, and count the seconds before EITHER gender is made fun of for the things they do (though a good deal of those things are stereotypes that realistically don't affect many people) but male-bashing is a source of income for some people, because you can do it freely without anyone gasping, and calling you a monster.

Naturally, you'll hear about instances of things not going women's way all over the place, but I think this is like the Africa effect. See, if in 1 year, the news reports 12 bad things that happened in Africa, and only 2 good things (realistically, this number would be 0, but let's be balanced here), you'll undoubtedly get the impression that Africa is quite simply a land of suffering, from top to bottom, which is far from the truth (I mean, it's no America, but if you go to any given city and try to "help people", everyone will look at you like you're crazy. Life goes on there, good economics or not). And yet, I'm sure that at least 49/50 people in this forum think that Africa is mostly an unhappy place. Are they to blame? Nope. Nobody told them how to see the broad picture... all they were ever told was, "Here are the issues, issues, and more issues, now see what you can understand from that."

Unfortunately, I think that in the case of women, their quantity of smiles are *probably* roughly the same as men's (every sect of every race has its joys and difficulties), just that their issues are capitalized in print, while men are blamed for things like the plague, and called monsters if they complain.
-

Like Jen said, I hate the assumption of victimization, because I think people's views on the issue are incredibly imbalanced. Nobody thinks on these things... most people either just blabber what they've heard, stand on some personal incident to decide their entire point of view, or make a judgment after watching lots of news. That's the same thing that happened to Africa, thanks to all the journalists and "get real" people who visited all the

StephanieFox
06-14-2008, 04:00 AM
Women' issues? Let's see...

Not getting paid as much as the guy in the next cubicle,

Not getting promoted as often or as quickly as the guy in the next cubicle,

Not getting hired as easily as the guy in the next cubicle,

Not being taken seriously,

Getting mocked and humiliated by guys when you aspire to higher things,

Walking down a street without being harassed,

Guys insisting that you like being harassed,

Being called 'bitch' if you are strong and 'weak' if you are not,

AND, having younger women think that their right
to try find a job in any profession,
to get a credit card in their own name;
to get a loan or a mortgage without a father or husband;
to enter a contest at the state fair without the permission of a male;
to get into a vet school, a military academy, the University of Virginia;
Harvard, Yale, schools of engineering;
to work in a newsroom or sit on a board of directors;
to play sports in public school, and much more;
has always been there and didn't come from their mother's generation fighting for these rights.

Those are women's issues.

Giving thanks to those men who stood by us and continue to do so throughout this fight.

kuwisdelu
06-14-2008, 04:07 AM
Since Buffy and the X-Files, I just don't buy the logic that sci-fi is female unfriendly...

Scully is the definition of hot. And I'm lucky enough to be dating a real life version of her. :D

johnnysannie
06-14-2008, 05:43 AM
BUt but but, I watch Sci Fi, Spike and History and I don't watch Lifetime. What doest that say about me?

I don't know...but I watch them too!

A big women's issue for me was when I was single and went on job interviews, I was told more than once that they didn't want to hire me because I might get married and move away with my husband.

After I got married, I got the "oh, but you'll be having children" song and dance.

Ravenlocks
06-14-2008, 05:47 AM
Believe this or not it's true. I was turned for several jobs when I was first married, because "You might get pregnant."

I had to quit one of my jobs when I became pregnant because they didn't want pregnant women working in a fashionstore.

Now that I'm older... I'm too old.
These are legal issues. There's probably nothing you can do about your earlier jobs at this point, but talk to HR about the age discrimination. Any competent HR department will know that if you were passed over for a job and you think it's because of your age, they'd better be prepared to prove you weren't as qualified as the applicant who was hired.

In terms of getting in the door as an older employee, take the date off your education and remove some of your earlier positions from your resume. List them on an application when asked, but not on the resume. A resume isn't a legal document, and you don't have to put down every place you've worked.

Er... and all the usual disclaimers apply. The above should not be construed as legal advice, etc. I'm not a lawyer.


Not making the same wages as a man for the same job.
Women often make less because they frequently tend to be less aggressive than men in asking for more money.


My grandmother and mother both died from colon cancer. No breast cancer in my family. However whenever I go to the doctors they want me to get a mamogram... and never ask about a colonoscopy.. I had to almost beg a doctor to get one ordered for me.
A competent doctor who hears you have a family history of colon cancer should be screening you without being begged, no matter what sex you are. But I know how hard it is to find doctors who actually listen to what you say. I'm lucky to have found one.


Last I checked, women were by and large the "cherished ones" of the male race, and are celebrated in almost every facet of the male-controlled media
Yes... as sex objects. I'm pretty laidback about gender issues in general and rarely think about them, but it does really bug me when the only thing men can find to remark on about a women is her hotness or lack thereof. It also really bugs me when men assume the only thing women want to write is "women's fiction" or romantic comedies. I don't think the men who do these things are chauvinists (some may be, but the ones I've known aren't), but there's a subconscious, probably socially-conditioned assumption that a woman has to look pretty and can't or won't write certain genres.

On the other hand, maybe the reason women don't always remark on men's looks is that most men you see around are not particularly hot? :tongue


Like Jen said, I hate the assumption of victimization, because I think people's views on the issue are incredibly imbalanced.
I think the assumption of victimization leads to victimization. I once knew a woman who assumed she was going to encounter discrimination at every turn because she was a woman. Lo and behold, she encountered discrimination at every turn.

I think the empowered young women of today are less likely to encounter discrimination partly because they don't expect to. I can't speak for all of them, but I'm one of them, and I have to say I never consider my gender when setting goals for my life, and I've only encountered discrimination once (in a personal setting, not professional). Granted, these young women are the same ones Stephanie mentioned who don't realize how hard their mother's or grandmother's generation fought for equal rights. I know I don't get it because I haven't lived it.

C.bronco
06-14-2008, 06:18 AM
When job hunting, women employers can be even more sexist than male employers. It is very sad, but true.

Kalyke
06-14-2008, 06:42 AM
er- why would you suppose that? Are you the only deep woman out there. Are the rest of us concerned we'll get our hair mussed up if we think of anything with substance?

I'm not deep. just read the news, as you probably do. Saying that women are murdered for being women is not deep. Why the attack? We all have something to say. No need to get defensive.

Women's magazines, chick-lit and so on has a powerful position in telling girls and young women what is "important" and it is still about putting on make up and catching a man. Don't you see that as manipulative?

Skyraven
06-14-2008, 07:14 AM
another one that I thought of - Ovarian Cancer.

I have to take birth control to keep my risk low. My mom died six months after being diagnosed with Stage 3B OC.

other women's issues - Employers not being family friendly, or not helping you make the most of family leave, or not having a lactaction room for those who breastfeed.

C.bronco
06-14-2008, 07:22 AM
Okay, seriously: comfortable undergarments.

That's high on my list,

StephanieFox
06-14-2008, 07:36 AM
I think the empowered young women of today are less likely to encounter discrimination partly because they don't expect to. I can't speak for all of them, but I'm one of them, and I have to say I never consider my gender when setting goals for my life, and I've only encountered discrimination once (in a personal setting, not professional). Granted, these young women are the same ones Stephanie mentioned who don't realize how hard their mother's or grandmother's generation fought for equal rights. I know I don't get it because I haven't lived it. (Posted by Raven Locks)

All of the things I mentioned were part of my life and the lives of all women not that long ago. Did you know that a husband could not be charged with raping his wife because it was not illegal for him to do so, even if they were living apart? Did you know that until the mid-1970s, jobs were listed as 'Help wanted: male" and Help wanted: female" and when women protested, it was treated like a joke?

Now, it's implied that the reason we had (or have) discrimination is our own fault because we expected it.

Here's a story you should know; The reason the woman's movement got started is that during the so-called radical anti-war and racial equality youth movements in the 1960s and 1970s, when asked "What's the woman's place in the movement?" the answer given was "prone." The women made coffee and sandwiches and got sick of it.

If you have not lived it and have never faced any discrimination, go thank a 50+ woman you might know for making it so. Go on. A little appreciation would be nice.

:)

Dario D.
06-14-2008, 07:45 AM
Yes... as sex objects.
Well, that's ONE facet that you're going to see in the media, but I don't think you could use that to justify assuming that men pretty much ONLY see women as sex objects. I mean, some obviously do... but I most certainly don't think most do, at all.

(bear in mind that there is a huge difference between verbal admiration of the female figure - which is artistic praise of the most beautiful thing in the universe, to men - and seeing women as sex objects)

Of all the men I've ever known, maybe two made frequent "objectifying" comments about women, but even then, they did not in any sense whatsoever actually think of women that way. They both maintained extremely normal relationships with women who understood and tolerated their expertise at noticing boobs, things that looked like boobs, and things that might have looked like boobs, didn't really, but reminded them of boobs anyway. I don't like their thinking, but the point is that even men who talk endlessly about women's parts can still realistically deal with women as casually as the next guy. Some are just clowns in that way, and it throws some people off.

If men as a whole *really* actually objectified women in a way so as to actually act upon that perspective (leaving out the writers on TV, who portray all kinds of ridiculous characters), they'd have serious trouble with relationships. But I don't see these kinds of problems anywhere in real-life. I see them on TV and in movies, but both ways: you have brain-dead sex feinds (men) who sleep around and refer to women as "booty", and you have women sluts who do the exact same thing, but worse: they're often unfaithful. But no matter WHAT the case, you don't really care WHO they sleep with, because they're all just a bunch of prostitutes, on both sides of the aisle... so, when trouble comes, they're just reaping what they've sewn. That's TV. [applauds] If you want a prime example of this hyper-sexed portrayal of reality, go see the movie Sex And The City. (and that's targeted at women)

-

But now, regarding admiration of the female figure, let me be frank: to most men, the woman's figure is their artist's muse, and men in the western world usually have absolutely no fear of repression in expressing that. To women, this admiration will often sound like objectification, and it will hurt if the admired figure is better than theirs - but the mistake is thinking that there's an intent of "reduction" in the man's mind, as if he wants women to reduce themselves into toys (as if that's all he cares about), just because he's applauding their physical beauty, rather than personality. Once again, the Africa effect comes into play... If people hear 8 admiring comments of women's sexiness, and only 2 mentions of their personality (or none on TV), people will say women are now officially objectified as sex objects.

"Hot-chick" talk is just a form of male gossip that one can get away with far more easily than women can the other way around. In most social circles, women can only talk like that in private, or in the strict company of close friends.

You also won't see much "hot guy talk" it on TV (unless you're watching more girlie shows), because TV is written by men (yes, including most of those girlie shows)... And the job of a TV writer is not to portray a fair and balanced take on reality, but an exaggerated, ridiculous take that gets people interested enough to pay attention. Like Dr. Phil once said (in the one episode of his TV show that I ever watched): "It's not on TV because it's normal. It's on TV because it's outrageous."



I think the assumption of victimization leads to victimization. I once knew a woman who assumed she was going to encounter discrimination at every turn because she was a woman. Lo and behold, she encountered discrimination at every turn.
I wouldn't rely on one instance to govern my perception of the entire issue. That "bad-luck at every turn" scenario is probably about as common as any man who experienced similar put-offs, such as when job-hunting, or just going about his business. Or, could it be that she's a weirdo? Could she be putting a sharp twist on things? I don't know how the heck discrimination against women could be so powerful that someone could have a track-record about it, unless they're just *trying* to blame their gender as the reason for their put-downs... which is... quite easy to pull for someone with half an imagination.

I can't jump to any conclusions about that, because I don't know the situation at all, but I mean, how many men do you think would be able to attest to knowing somebody who would say, "Well, you're a woman, so you can't have this job," or something to that effect? (of course, not in those words) There are probably more radical feminists out there who would do worse...

benbradley
06-14-2008, 07:58 AM
women's issues can include the following:
motherhood, relationships, illnesses that affect only women, self-esteem, ...
Yeah. Men never have "issues," and certainly not "self-esteem issues." Men have "suck-it-up-and-deal-with-it" problems.

Siddow
06-14-2008, 08:05 AM
Okay, I'll say it: my biggest issue today is which one of you fellas is gonna take out the trash and mow the lawn? And the lightbulb in the garage is burned out, the dog needs a bath, my car won't start and I've got a headache. Go get me some advil and pour me some wine? Thanks, babe. *smooch*

(seriously, though, when I think of 'women's issues', I think it's probably stuff that isn't bothering me because I have plenty of personal issues, thanks, don't need a whole genderful of them.)

Joycecwilliams
06-14-2008, 08:13 AM
When job hunting, women employers can be even more sexist than male employers. It is very sad, but true.

I agree...

Joycecwilliams
06-14-2008, 08:15 AM
Okay, I'll say it: my biggest issue today is which one of you fellas is gonna take out the trash and mow the lawn? And the lightbulb in the garage is burned out, the dog needs a bath, my car won't start and I've got a headache. Go get me some advil and pour me some wine? Thanks, babe. *smooch*

(seriously, though, when I think of 'women's issues', I think it's probably stuff that isn't bothering me because I have plenty of personal issues, thanks, don't need a whole genderful of them.)

Ya know it is true what they say... If you can pump gas, and take out the garbage, you have eliminated 2 of the 3 reasons for a man. :)

Ravenlocks
06-14-2008, 08:46 AM
Stephanie:

I definitely did not mean the discrimination of the past was the women's fault. I meant that TODAY, in our freer society, women shouldn't approach situations with a chip on their shoulder expecting to be discriminated against because they're female. Because that can become a self-fulfilling prophesy if they act and react based on that assumption.

I do appreciate the fact that I don't have to get married and stay home and raise kids and cook his dinner and keep the house spotless if I don't want to (and I would be miserable if I had to do all that). So, thank you! :)

Dario:

Nowhere did I assume that most men see women ONLY as sex objects. In fact, I specifically stated that wasn't the case. And I suppose anyone, male or female, can lose their reason over a pretty face and ignore the mind or abilities behind it. But I think it's dumb. And I find dumbness annoying. :)

Re: victimization, I cited an example of the issue, not a single instance governing my entire perception of the issue. In the case of this particular acquaintance, I didn't know why discrimination could be so powerful as to cause a track record either, which is why I assumed she was reading into situations because she expected to encounter discrimination whether or not if was OBJECTIVELY there. But in regard to the prevalence of it, although I've been lucky enough not to have encountered it, several women who posted earlier in this thread have been discriminated against in the job market because they were considered likely to get pregnant. That amounts to being told they couldn't have the job because they were women. I assume that practice is less prevalent in 2008 (and there's legal recourse if it happens).

By the way, TV is not written solely by men.

Dario D.
06-14-2008, 10:04 AM
several women who posted earlier in this thread have been discriminated against in the job market because they were considered likely to get pregnant. That amounts to being told they couldn't have the job because they were women.
Yes, as those women mentioned, pregnancy, with its job-destabilizing tendencies, is most certainly a womens' issue, but I would hesitate to consider it any kind of hateful discrimination, unless someone were using the pregnancy excuse to not hire a woman for other reasons.

Some examples: If you're a reserve soldier likely to get deported, because a war is flaring up, expect to not get some jobs... If you're a visitor to the 'states, and tell the guy who's trying to hire you that you could go back to your country at any given time, expect to not get some jobs... If you're a woman, freshly-married, and say that you're likely to have children soon, expect to not get some jobs... not because of hate, but because it makes logical sense. Unfortunately, the receiving end is not always so happy about this, but if something were inherently wrong about it, it wouldn't be lawful, and companies would be getting sued about this left and right.

Of course, I don't mean to imply that any of this would make it any less of an "issue" for women, because it can hurt, and ain't nothing can change that. :( Thus, there will be a book at Amazon complaining about this, with which someone can get some solace, or learn of some ways to work around this. Same thing for soldiers, probably.


By the way, TV is not written solely by men.
Not 100%... ;)

Linda Adams
06-14-2008, 02:48 PM
Women's issues can also include what's happening to women in other countries. When I went to Saudi Arabia a number of years ago, I travelled in a bus with the back section completely enclosed with a piece of plywood, to be used for the women travelling. I also ate in a Japanese restaurant with a male soldier, and we had to sit behind a screen because I was there.

WendyNYC
06-14-2008, 03:41 PM
If you're a woman, freshly-married, and say that you're likely to have children soon, expect to not get some jobs... not because of hate, but because it makes logical sense. Unfortunately, the receiving end is not always so happy about this, but if something were inherently wrong about it, it wouldn't be lawful, and companies would be getting sued about this left and right.


It's ISN'T lawful, btw, but it's done anyway. You can't discriminate because someone has kids or might have kids. And yet, still happens. And they do get sued sometimes, but you know, that's expensive to do when you don't have a job.

Why expect not to get some jobs because of kids? You've never heard of nannies, day care or stay at home dads? Here in NYC you certainly see it.

Still, a woman, even if she gets the job, is likely to be "mommy-tracked" which means promotions are few and far between. I suppose the reason being that she should spend time with her kids. Do you think this is EVER an issue for a man? Is he ever "daddy-tracked?" Do you ever hear of a man running for political office and people asking "well, how much time does he spend with his kids?" Uh, no.

And if you think this doesn't happen I'd be happy to provide you with a list of friends -- lawyers, investment bankers, doctors -- who can tell you all about it. Those who refused to be momy-tracked, who work long hours and are aggressive about promotions, still are subjected to comments about their mothering skills. Things like "why did you bother having kids if you aren't going to raise them?" From men and women alike.

My husband works in finance. He works long hours and travels frequently. No one has ever made a comment about his parenting skills. In fact, he gets praised for doing even the most minimal tasks, like walking the kids to school in the morning.

Skyraven
06-15-2008, 12:37 AM
Yeah. Men never have "issues," and certainly not "self-esteem issues." Men have "suck-it-up-and-deal-with-it" problems.

Hi Ben,

Sorry if my post implied that men don't have issues. Not what I meant at all.
One of my biggest challenges, being a woman raising a man, is that I want to make sure he knows to express his feelings and not "suck it up and deal with it". That and wishing that for an hour a day, I could be a boy to hang out with my boy and understand the dynamic between father and son. Please put that on my wish-list. :)
As a therapist, anyone and everyone has issues that they all have to struggle with. I think that the thread has gotten away from the original question - what are women's issues?

LIVIN
06-15-2008, 01:06 AM
The women's issue I find the most intriguing revolves around money. The word on the street is that women get paid less than men. Simultaneously, men are more likely to pay for dinner and/or drinks. So, if the pay level becomes even, what happens with that dynamic?

Siddow
06-15-2008, 02:39 AM
So, if the pay level becomes even, what happens with that dynamic?

Then the man better learn how to cook.

StephanieFox
06-15-2008, 03:25 AM
The women's issue I find the most intriguing revolves around money. The word on the street is that women get paid less than men. Simultaneously, men are more likely to pay for dinner and/or drinks. So, if the pay level becomes even, what happens with that dynamic?


I'll trade you that dinner and a movie for the extra $20K a year.

(Also, I always paid my own way. Then I didn't 'owe' the guy anything and we could deal as equals.)

Mr Flibble
06-15-2008, 12:22 PM
The word on the street is that women get paid less than men.

If they are doing the same job that's actually illegal here. I've never been paid a lower wage than a guy doing the same job.

SHBueche
06-16-2008, 12:23 AM
Interesting posts here, but no one addressed andropause (sp?), male menopause, true or false. Also, there's a man who is supposedly pregnant, he was originally a she and had some surgery (but obviously not all).

soma
06-16-2008, 12:52 AM
Simultaneously, men are more likely to pay for dinner and/or drinks.

Men are also likely to find absolutely no problem with the idea of expecting sex in return for paying for dinner and/or drinks. This doesn't equalize anything.

Skyraven
06-16-2008, 03:52 AM
Interesting posts here, but no one addressed andropause (sp?), male menopause, true or false. Also, there's a man who is supposedly pregnant, he was originally a she and had some surgery (but obviously not all).

Hi ShBueche,

The machine had a cosmetic makeover, but the interior pipes stayed the same. (ie Man who is pregnant.)

LIVIN
06-16-2008, 04:41 AM
I suppose my point is that society has certain modes of operation in place that offset a pay differential (whether it exists or not). For example, I was looking into certain sports leagues around here the other day and the women's leagues are cheaper than the men's leagues.

I give props to women who pay their own way. Expecting sex in return? Well, that's about as atavistic as one can get... and it's also easily circumvented.

Steph - I'll take that $20K and move to your world... $20K differential? Wowsas! Is your world made of money-growing-trees?

soma
06-16-2008, 12:29 PM
I suppose my point is that society has certain modes of operation in place that offset a pay differential (whether it exists or not).
Sorry, but is there any actual data that supports this? There's no question that the income disparity exists--it's common knowledge that on average women earn about 75 cents to the dollar compared to men. The difference is somewhat slimmer (though it's certainly still there) when qualified by education, experience, and years on the job, but "years on the job" is the key there, since most employers refuse to provide maternity leave or daycare and have other policies that indirectly prohibit women from getting equal pay.

Forgive me if I have trouble understanding, without hard evidence, how the occasional free dinner or ladies' night discount could possibly offset this in any significant way.

StephanieFox
06-16-2008, 07:06 PM
I suppose my point is that society has certain modes of operation in place that offset a pay differential (whether it exists or not). For example, I was looking into certain sports leagues around here the other day and the women's leagues are cheaper than the men's leagues.

I give props to women who pay their own way. Expecting sex in return? Well, that's about as atavistic as one can get... and it's also easily circumvented.

Steph - I'll take that $20K and move to your world... $20K differential? Wowsas! Is your world made of money-growing-trees?


The $20 difference? I've seen it. I haven't lived it. But, it does exist.

sassandgroove
06-17-2008, 12:46 AM
Now I suppose it is about nail color, and chick-flicks, but at its core it is about serious things, like


I'm not deep. just read the news, as you probably do. Saying that women are murdered for being women is not deep. Why the attack? We all have something to say. No need to get defensive.

Women's magazines, chick-lit and so on has a powerful position in telling girls and young women what is "important" and it is still about putting on make up and catching a man. Don't you see that as manipulative?I guess I just misread the first part of your first post as assuming most women think important issues are things like what color nail polish to buy and nothing else. I apologize if that is not how you meant it. You are correct that there are a lot of magazines and such that do frame non important things as 'essential.'



Yes, as those women mentioned, pregnancy, with its job-destabilizing tendencies, is most certainly a womens' issue, but I would hesitate to consider it any kind of hateful discrimination, unless someone were using the pregnancy excuse to not hire a woman for other reasons.

Some examples: If you're a reserve soldier likely to get deported, because a war is flaring up, expect to not get some jobs... If you're a visitor to the 'states, and tell the guy who's trying to hire you that you could go back to your country at any given time, expect to not get some jobs... If you're a woman, freshly-married, and say that you're likely to have children soon, expect to not get some jobs... not because of hate, but because it makes logical sense. Unfortunately, the receiving end is not always so happy about this, but if something were inherently wrong about it, it wouldn't be lawful, and companies would be getting sued about this left and right.

Of course, I don't mean to imply that any of this would make it any less of an "issue" for women, because it can hurt, and ain't nothing can change that. :( Thus, there will be a book at Amazon complaining about this, with which someone can get some solace, or learn of some ways to work around this. Same thing for soldiers, probably.


Not 100%... ;)Wendy NYC responded to this pretty well. How is it ok? The way I read this, you are saying that when I apply for a job, I should expect the possiblity that I might not get it because the HR person might assume I will get pregnant. ANd that I should just sit back and take it because that's "How it is." How is that ok? IT isn't.

FOr what it is worth, when I was engaged it was like money in the bank looking for a new job. I had moved a lot and had jobs listed from 4 states. Saying I was engaged to a native told people interviewing me that I wasn't moving around anymore. I was offered three positions, and was in the position to choose. Sweet.

LIVIN
06-17-2008, 02:42 AM
I lived at an ecovillage last year. Everyone was paid the same - young men, middle aged women, old men - for community work. Simultaneously, everyone had a requirement to work for the good of the community. No matter who you were, you had to perform X hours of work.

Let's say you're doing hard physical labor, as an example. No one wants to get paid less or be required to work more hours. However, simultaneously, if the community is essentially paying for the labor (which was essentially the case), who would you rather hire for this hard, physical labor? 9 times out of the ten the response would be the strong young man, when the question was posed in such a way that the community's resources would be used to pay for this activity. On the other hand, everyone wanted to get paid equally, regardless of how much they could accomplish. It was quite a conundrum.

LIVIN
06-17-2008, 02:47 AM
Here's an interesting article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20080606/cm_usatoday/ourviewonpayequitywhywomenearnless

WendyNYC
06-17-2008, 02:49 AM
Let's say you're doing hard physical labor, as an example. No one wants to get paid less or be required to work more hours. However, simultaneously, if the community is essentially paying for the labor (which was essentially the case), who would you rather hire for this hard, physical labor? 9 times out of the ten the response would be the strong young man, when the question was posed in such a way that the community's resources would be used to pay for this activity. On the other hand, everyone wanted to get paid equally, regardless of how much they could accomplish. It was quite a conundrum.

But that is most certainly NOT the case in the vast majority of jobs. Take, for instance, me. I worked in advertising. My job required working on TV and print campaigns, pitching new business, and dealing with the client. Gender made no difference.

LIVIN
06-17-2008, 03:01 AM
Take, for instance, me. I worked in advertising. My job required working on TV and print campaigns, pitching new business, and dealing with the client. Gender made no difference.

So, what were you paid?

WendyNYC
06-17-2008, 03:10 AM
Here's an interesting article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20080606/cm_usatoday/ourviewonpayequitywhywomenearnless

I do think a lot of these opinions are correct and that the choices we make have a lot to do with how much we earn. But I also think that gender discrimination still exists more than it should for it being 2008 and not 1965. Just look at what the former president of Harvard said about women being "innately less able to pursue a career in math and science." People like that still hire. I had a very, very heated conversation about gender and race discrimination with someone who does most of the hiring at a huge, famous investment bank. He was a total misogynist. THAT was a fun dinner party. I might not ever be invited back.

veinglory
06-17-2008, 03:17 AM
Most of the gender gap is indirectly caused (career choice, years out of work, obstacles to promotion) but when people disclose income there are often a lot of surprises along the lines of male employees making more than their female boss. These things still seem pretty widespread to me.

LIVIN
06-17-2008, 03:21 AM
Just look at what the former president of Harvard said about women being "innately less able to pursue a career in math and science." People like that still hire.

Unfortunately, people exist that don't quite live up to high moral standards, racists exist and other bad people exist. However, they exist in all realms, of all genders and of all races. The thing is... life expectancy these days is around 80 years in the United States. So, someone who was in their 20's in 1965 is only in their 60's now - and still in the workforce. With greater life expectancies, I think it has kind of slowed the wheels of change, considering that these people of past generations tend to be in power.

WendyNYC
06-17-2008, 03:40 AM
Unfortunately, people exist that don't quite live up to high moral standards, racists exist and other bad people exist. However, they exist in all realms, of all genders and of all races. The thing is... life expectancy these days is around 80 years in the United States. So, someone who was in their 20's in 1965 is only in their 60's now - and still in the workforce. With greater life expectancies, I think it has kind of slowed the wheels of change, considering that these people of past generations tend to be in power.

The guy I was talking about is in his late 30s, and doesn't like hiring women because they will "all quit when they have their first baby." I so wish I could name where he worked. They do a lot of hiring on Wall Street.

I do believe it's more widespread than you think.

LIVIN
06-17-2008, 04:20 AM
I just think there is a larger picture to look at, as delineated in the article link I posted. In this society, people are often paid more for having more experience. So, with women being in the workforce for a shorter period of time, their pay will be less than men that have been in the workforce for a long time. But, this doesn't just apply to women, it applies to anyone who hasn't been in the workforce for a long time. Naturally, if women haven't been in the workforce as long (societally speaking), then there will be more men in upper level positions and, therefore, making more money. My contention is that a lot of the differences have to do with similar differences, choosing different professions, etc...

An interesting thing would be to look at statistics regarding how often women and men leave the workforce when they have children.

An Australian Study: http://www.popline.org/docs/0822/208016.html

Here's a quote "60% of women do not return to the workforce after childbirth" although it seems to contradict another statement in the brief.

WendyNYC
06-17-2008, 04:44 AM
I just think there is a larger picture to look at, as delineated in the article link I posted. In this society, people are often paid more for having more experience. So, with women being in the workforce for a shorter period of time, their pay will be less than men that have been in the workforce for a long time. But, this doesn't just apply to women, it applies to anyone who hasn't been in the workforce for a long time. Naturally, if women haven't been in the workforce as long (societally speaking), then there will be more men in upper level positions and, therefore, making more money. My contention is that a lot of the differences have to do with similar differences, choosing different professions, etc...
.

I'm not disputing that. I think there is more to the .75/1.00 statistic than meets the eye, and I'm wary of how ANY study like that is conducted. My problem is with employers who don't hire the young woman in the first place because she might have a child someday and quit or cut her hours. My problem is with the president of the most elite univeristy in the US stating that the female brain is inferior to the male brain. THAT, to me, is clearly gender discrimination, and I don't think we should just shut it and wait until those old dudes are dead.

LIVIN
06-17-2008, 05:02 AM
Well, regarding just about everything else (war in Iraq, etc..), I too often feel like I just have to shut it and wait for these old dudes to die... It's not even remotely a new feeling for me....

Back to the topic at hand... I'm generally skeptical of anyone who even attended Harvard (given that it costs about a billion dollars to begin with), let alone runs the place. I am curious, however, how someone became President of the place while in his 30's.

Now, as for women being hired less because there is a fear of them having children and leaving... it's a tough cookie to crack. If the numbers suggest women are more apt to up and leave when they have a child and you're a struggling business owner with a very small workforce and you need to hire one person, what will the numbers dictate? Afterall, business people tend to be all about the numbers, so if the numbers indicate a safer bet, what do you think they'll go with?

WendyNYC
06-17-2008, 05:11 AM
Back to the topic at hand... I'm generally skeptical of anyone who even attended Harvard (given that it costs about a billion dollars to begin with), let alone runs the place. I am curious, however, how someone became President of the place while in his 30's.

Now, as for women being hired less because there is a fear of them having children and leaving... it's a tough cookie to crack. If the numbers suggest women are more apt to up and leave when they have a child and you're a struggling business owner with a very small workforce and you need to hire one person, what will the numbers dictate? Afterall, business people tend to be all about the numbers, so if the numbers indicate a safer bet, what do you think they'll go with?


Sorry, my posting was unclear. The banker was in his 30s.

And as to your second paragraph, while it may be a risk some employers take, it's still gender discrimination if you don't hire the woman based only on the fact she might become a mother. How can it be anything but?

LIVIN
06-17-2008, 05:18 AM
What if it's not a might? What if the woman plans to become a mother and plans to leave when she does?

WendyNYC
06-17-2008, 05:21 AM
What if it's not a might? What if the woman plans to become a mother and plans to leave when she does?

If she tells them that, fine, they aren't legally obligated to hire her (I think). But it's against the law to ask (not that anyone pays attention to that law.)

LIVIN
06-17-2008, 05:24 AM
Let's say you finish writing your book and two women agents are simultaneously interested in it and you. One plans on having children within two years, at which time she will get out of the business and become a stay at home mom. The other woman is dedicated to your pursuits as a writer, wants to foster a long-lasting relationship with you and will never leave you in order to become a stay at home mom. Which one do you choose?

No, it's not sexual discrimination, because both are women. Maybe parental discrimination or stay at home mom discrimination. Anyone, which would you choose for your developing career?

C.bronco
06-17-2008, 05:28 AM
I don't care if my agent is going to have children. It won't stop her from getting on the horn and schmoozing as necessary.

Maternity leave is a paltry 8 weeks. Then we work or we're sh&% out of luck.

Give me an agent who has slept 3 hours a night and is ornery. I'll have that chick negotiate my rights in a heartbeat.

WendyNYC
06-17-2008, 05:29 AM
Let's say you finish writing your book and two women agents are simultaneously interested in it and you. One plans on having children within two years, at which time she will get out of the business and become a stay at home mom. The other woman is dedicated to your pursuits as a writer, wants to foster a long-lasting relationship with you and will never leave you in order to become a stay at home mom. Which one do you choose?

No, it's not sexual discrimination, because both are women. Maybe parental discrimination or stay at home mom discrimination. Anyone, which would you choose for your developing career?

If they both tell me this? The one who will stay, of course. But I couldn't make those assumptions because someone with two x chromosomes walks through the door, and it's the assumption that makes the difference.

LIVIN
06-17-2008, 05:31 AM
C. Bronco... you obviously did not read my post... the option is a woman who has kids and QUITS the business altogether

LIVIN
06-17-2008, 05:32 AM
If they both tell me this? The one who will stay, of course. But I couldn't make those assumptions because someone with two x chromosomes walks through the door, and it's the assumption that makes the difference.

Ah, but you went with the safer bet given the information available to you. So, do you think the business person will go with the safer bet given the information available to them?

WendyNYC
06-17-2008, 05:36 AM
Ah, but you went with the safer bet given the information available to you. So, do you think the business person will go with the safer bet given the information available to them?

That would be illegal, but it's done. You can't assume someone will stay home with a baby. Plenty of women don't! Certainly here in NYC, and I'm sure lots of other places. Go to the playground any weekday and it's filled to the brim with nannies.

You might also assume that my two daughters struggle with math and science, but you would be wrong.

LIVIN
06-17-2008, 05:48 AM
An interesting scenario has been brought to my attention.

A husband and wife both work - due to thier general disposition they choose completely different lines of work and it just so happens that the man makes more than the woman. Admittedly, this has nothing to do with gender is solely due to the lines of work they chose, due to thier pre-existing inclination.

So, when they have children and decide that one of them must stay at home to raise them, they assess the situation. The man makes substantially more money than the woman, so they decide it makes more sense for the woman to stay home, regardless of the realities of who might rather stay home.

In said scenario, which is probably quite common, a man makes more money than his woman counterpart because of chosen career paths and not due to gender. However, because of these decisions, the woman, more often than not, is the one who ends up staying at home once a family comes into the equation as it makes more financial sense.

Thus, by going into careers that are not as financially rewarding, people can set themselves up (unknowingly or unintentionally) to be the ones that stay at home. A business person could see it as irresponsible to not pay attention to such data.

What I'm getting at is that it's an interesting cycle that, kind of, self-perpetuates, in a way (although, my wording here may not be as good as intended).

WendyNYC
06-17-2008, 05:10 PM
Yes, all that's true, and it's been the topic of several articles and studies. I do feel a tinge of feminist guilt about leaving the workforce, especially as it relates to other (and future) women.

Since we were talking hypotheticals and wild generalizations, which would you rather hire?

A) The woman and mother, who, if you pay her decently and let her see her kids every once in awhile, will be a productive member of your company for years to come because she's thrilled with her sweet deal.

or B) The man who will work day and night, is an assertive go-getter, but asks you for a raise every time you turn around and who will leave for a rival company if they give him a good offer, taking several of your clients along with him.

(I post this in jest. I'm not really expecting an answer or discussion. Just something to consider when you are hiring.) ;)

LIVIN
06-18-2008, 02:48 AM
Well, it seems we've arrived at another scenario where the gender can basically be taken out of the equation.

The benefits of A are that you don't have to worry about the re-hiring process and as many raises. However, this person will not expand your business, if that's what you're looking for. Also, will they be there when you really need them or will other priorities take precedence?

If you're looking to expand your business, a go-getter such as B is what you want. Also, if the marketplace is competitive it might be beneficial to have someone who will work day and night. Like you said, this person will ask for more raises, but they may be justified in expanding business. The downfall is that you will have to go through the re-hiring process. However, my contract would stipulate that they cannot go to a rival company within a set period of time following working for my company, so I'm not worried about that aspect.

They could, theoretically, both work their way up to upper level positions in the company. And, I think both have pros and cons and can be suitable, to different degrees, for different jobs. So, my business would play a large role in making this decision if I was choosing between the two. Simultaneously, A could be a man and B could be a woman.

WendyNYC
06-18-2008, 03:33 AM
Oy, Livin. I was just kidding about that. Playing with some old stereotypes.

jennontheisland
06-18-2008, 03:47 AM
A) The woman and mother, who, if you pay her decently and let her see her kids every once in awhile, will be a productive member of your company for years to come because she's thrilled with her sweet deal.

or B) The man who will work day and night, is an assertive go-getter, but asks you for a raise every time you turn around and who will leave for a rival company if they give him a good offer, taking several of your clients along with him.


I know you're not really looking for discussion, but every time I've asked for more money, I've gotten a raise. Every time a job was offered, I've asked for more money and gotten it. Even working retail part time in school, I got another 50 cents an hour out of them. My current job I asked for 10% more and got it. No questions or negotiations.

On another board, populated mostly by women, more than 90% of those employed said they'd never asked for a raise, but were grateful when one was offered.

I wonder if the reason women are paid less is because they are "thrilled" that someone offered them a job, and think it's good enough.

veinglory
06-18-2008, 03:52 AM
Or because they expect money to come based on worth not demand? There are two sides. Whether women do what it takes to get money, and whether employers should think about rewarding more female-typical appraoches of it gets the job done better or even as well.

WendyNYC
06-18-2008, 04:05 AM
I know you're not really looking for discussion, but every time I've asked for more money, I've gotten a raise. Every time a job was offered, I've asked for more money and gotten it. Even working retail part time in school, I got another 50 cents an hour out of them. My current job I asked for 10% more and got it. No questions or negotiations.

On another board, populated mostly by women, more than 90% of those employed said they'd never asked for a raise, but were grateful when one was offered.

I wonder if the reason women are paid less is because they are "thrilled" that someone offered them a job, and think it's good enough.

I was just making up a scenario based on Ravenlock's quote

Women often make less because they frequently tend to be less aggressive than men in asking for more money.

And Livin's yahoo opinion piece about men being more entreprenurial than women. Yeah, but they might take your clients and start their own firm!

I was just kidding, though. Men and women could both feasibly do this.

LIVIN
06-19-2008, 06:35 PM
I do feel a tinge of feminist guilt about leaving the workforce, especially as it relates to other (and future) women.

Ah, but would you be writing a book if you did not take the path you took?

sassandgroove
06-19-2008, 07:16 PM
I don't think you should feel guilty. To me being feminist or whatever should mean seeking mutual respect, and being feminine. It should be about choice. A woman can choose to work and not have a family, or work and have a family, or a woman can choose to stay home to take care of her family (which is work too.) It shouldn't be about criticizing women who make a different choice. I bought in to all that feminist BS when I was young and found myself very unhappy. Now I am married, and I find I want to stay home and take care of my family (and write). But we don't make enough for me to do that. I'm not even sure we could make that choice if we only had one car and such. It seems to me the 'feminists' in power don't take that sort of thing into consideration. They are only interested in their own pocketbooks and power.

I used to work at a hospital in rural Kansas. Those woman I worked with were made of steel. THey worked full time, and ran farms and raised a family. BUt I garantee you if the economy allowed, some of those women if not all, would have not worked at the hospital. They would have stayed on the farm and taken care of their families.

Not every woman wants to be a Super Career Woman. If they want to be, great. But if they don't want to be, that is valid as well.


Oh and I was talking to my husband about this thread. It should work both ways. He said where he works women constantly get away with calling in because their kids are sick, but men can't. Why not?

jennontheisland
06-19-2008, 08:24 PM
I think it depends on the employer. My husband, who is currently a stay at home dad, was the one who went home when our kid was sick. His employer didn't say a word, and to be honest, I think it was because he was a man; they didn't question him when he told them firmly that he was leaving to care for his child. I've seen women have to negotiate to get away for an afternoon to pick up a kid who is puking all over the daycare.

I will be the one at home in the coming year, (he'll be done his upgrading and be making more money, so he'll be the one working) and though I feel no guilt about leaving my job, I do wonder if I'll go insane with only a 5 year old for company during the day.

sassandgroove
06-19-2008, 09:47 PM
Hang out here when you need adults. :)

And I just meant his comment to be anecdotal, not that all employers are like that. He was just saying we should all be treated as people, not as men get one set of privileges and woman another.

jennifer75
06-19-2008, 09:49 PM
though I feel no guilt about leaving my job, I do wonder if I'll go insane with only a 5 year old for company during the day.

You will. But there is always kindergarten....unless you're homeschooling. In that case, shoot yourself now.